Wow, obama is going to win

[psy]

How is ISACCORP in direct conflict?  All they try to do is provide objective information warning parents of substantiated accounts of abuse, not to mention warning signs about programs.  Are you telling me that if a parent came to you and you knew there was information on ISAC about a school you refer to, you wouldn't let them know about...  It just seems to me like that's trying to be a bit deceptive to parents.. hiding information.  What do you tell them if they ask if there have been any allegations of abuse?

It is telling, though, that you would be fired if you referred to ISAC. Thank you for answering that honestly.  I can't see how you can stomach that, honestly.

[Anonymous]

How is ISACCORP in direct conflict? All they try to do is provide objective information warning parents of substantiated accounts of abuse, not to mention warning signs about programs. Are you telling me that if a parent came to you and you knew there was information on ISAC about a school you refer to, you wouldn't let them know about... It just seems to me like that's trying to be a bit deceptive to parents.. hiding information. What do you tell them if they ask if there have been any allegations of abuse?

We are not in agreement with all the schools on their list and some of the dialog so we don’t refer to it.  We don’t withhold information.  We are not hiding anything.  There are areas we don’t agree with.  How many times do you refer people to strugglingteens.com?  or promote positive aspects of programs?  Would you consider that deceptive?  I can honestly say that I inform parents with as much credible information as I can provide to help them make a decision.

It is telling, though, that you would be fired if you referred to ISAC. Thank you for answering that honestly. I can't see how you can stomach that, honestly.

Argh, Sometimes it gets to me, but every business has some rules that you have to put up with.  I have never worked with a company where I agreed with everything and if it rubs me too much I move on or get fired.

[psy]

How is ISACCORP in direct conflict? All they try to do is provide objective information warning parents of substantiated accounts of abuse, not to mention warning signs about programs. Are you telling me that if a parent came to you and you knew there was information on ISAC about a school you refer to, you wouldn't let them know about... It just seems to me like that's trying to be a bit deceptive to parents.. hiding information. What do you tell them if they ask if there have been any allegations of abuse?

We are not in agreement with all the schools on their list and some of the dialog so we don’t refer to it.  We don’t withhold information.  We are not hiding anything.

No, but if there are allegations of abuse against a program, you sure won't tell parents about it, now will you?  It seems like the bottom line has taken precedence over the welfare of the kids and families.  Not sure how you rationalize that away, but it's your conscience, not mine.  So you got into this to help kids, you say?

Sorry.  I'm not trying to judge, but it's hard not to when you're more or less admitting you stand by and let parents send their kids into potentially dangerous situations without full knowledge.  Letting something happen when you could stop it is just as bad as participating directly.  Sure you don't have a legal responsibility to tell them, maybe... but ethical?  Moral?  Human?  These parents trust you with their kids.  The least you can give them is a fully informed decision.

What do I do?  Well.  if the parents get to me, they've already heard the industry's side of things.  I just present the "other side" and I don't particularly pretend to be un-biased, either.  When I explain things to parents, I say "you may have heard this, and here is the counterargument...".  I always address both sides.  You have to if you're going to change minds.  My job is to un-balance, things, the way I see it, and I'm pretty up-front about that.

I can honestly say that I inform parents with as much credible information as I can provide to help them make a decision.

As long as it doesn't conflict with a school you refer to, right?  Think about it.

[Anonymous]

Guest: I have internal information, but I would need to strip the header and would not be able to post the entire report due to legal complications because they dont belong to me, so I am posting something similar but accurate:

The Family Foundation School is accredited as a school by the Middle States Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, the New York State Department of Education and is accredited as a behavioral health care facility by the Joint Commission

1.    From 2004 through 2008, all Family Foundation School graduates have been accepted at postsecondary institutions, with 85 percent to four-year colleges and 15 percent to two-year schools or professional training.

2.    A Family Foundation School Alumni Association was established after the school held its first alumni reunion in September 2006. More than 125 former students from around the United States attended the reunion

3.    The school's English and Philosophy instructor and middle school principal, Jan Cheripko, is the author of nine books, has won numerous national and international book awards and has been a featured speaker at the National Council of Teachers of English, the International Reading Association, and numerous other New York State and Northeastern U.S. regional education conferences. He has also conducted graduate teaching accredited workshops on how to reach at-risk students through writing and literature

4.    After the hearings:
The school responded by declaring their support of the efforts of the committee to keep children safe from harm, adding that they had since modified their crisis-management methods to meet the standards of both the New York State Department of Education and the Therapeutic Crisis Intervention (TCI) program developed by Cornell University. The school also stated that since 1999, all school faculty and staff are required to be trained in Therapeutic Crisis Intervention techniques.

5.    The Family Foundation School's extracurricular programs include sports teams, drama productions, musical programs, an art department and a wide variety of clubs.

6.    The school's performing arts program presents full-scale musicals, drama productions, winter and spring choral concerts that are open to the public. and is a regular participant in the North American Music Festivals.

7.    In 2004 and 2005, the school's debating team won the Seventh annual Delaware-Otsego Bar Associations Forensic Speech Tournament, a regional debating competition.

8.    The school soccer team won the championship in the New York State Class D, Section IX Conference in 2005. FFS alumnus Wells Thompson plays Major League Soccer for the New England Revolution

Do you still think it is a secret society of thought reform and torture?  You need to distance yourselves from web sites like “stories for the Gulag” and the other one which actually seemed worse but I cant remember its name.  You should try reading more main stream information to get more a perspective.

Way to just take stuff off the wikipedia advertising page.  There are way too many things wrong with the FFS "response to the testimony" to even go into here.  If you want to have an honest dialogue about FFS I'm more than willing to go far into detail, but my time is limited, so I don't have the ability to be here on fornits nearly enough to go into this.  While the facts you see from the wiki may be impressive, the school ALSO had a suicide in 2004, despite having an 8 to 1 student to staff ratio.  The testimonies of students ranging from 2 years out, to 10 years out, report much of the same abuse.  Even the response FFS issued simply states that the "blankets" were "in accordance with first aid for seizures" at the time.  Even if you believe that hogwash, it mentions NOTHING about the use of DUCT TAPE to wrap kids up and leave them in isolation rooms covered in piss for DAYS!!  Just because some success stories happen in the way of grades, and even athletics in a school where kids have NO ACCESS to anything else in the outside world does not mean it is not a thought reform program.  Why not look at the fact that most, if not all, of the alumni from the earlier years suffer from severe PTSD, all have nightmares about their stays at FFS, and that some have reported being MOLESTED by Paul Geer, the musical director, as evidence that something is awry?  If you do your "research" from wikipedia and calling FFS and the list of cherry picked graduates and families that they refer you to, OF COURSE the school looks good.  Why not get a list of ALL students willing to talk.  Go to the myspace group.  Go to the facebook group.  Call Jennie Yabroff at Newsweek for HER notes after doing interviews with a long list of students that FFS thought would give great info to counter the testimonies....and they too were wrong.  The students, even those saying good things, all admitted to levels of abuse and torture.  

What will help you see you are WRONG?  FFS is NOT SAFE!!!

[Anonymous]

I don't think Obama is going to win because he is black. Sara pailin is a regular six pack joe like me and I hope that she becomes president. If Mikane can win since he is old there is a good change Sara will run next time and be our leader.

[Anonymous]

No, but if there are allegations of abuse against a program, you sure won't tell parents about it, now will you? It seems like the bottom line has taken precedence over the welfare of the kids and families. Not sure how you rationalize that away, but it's your conscience, not mine. So you got into this to help kids, you say?

Where did that come from?  I stated that we don’t refer to certain web sites.  We don’t with hold any information which we feel is credible or would impact placement or a childs welfare.

Sorry. I'm not trying to judge, but it's hard not to when you're more or less admitting you stand by and let parents send their kids into potentially dangerous situations without full knowledge. Letting something happen when you could stop it is just as bad as participating directly. Sure you don't have a legal responsibility to tell them, maybe... but ethical? Moral? Human? These parents trust you with their kids. The least you can give them is a fully informed decision.

You misunderstood what I have said.  If you have read what I have said so far you would know that I always put the kids first. If I felt they were going to be in any danger I would not be part of the referral and would try to stopit.  I have done it in the past.

What do I do? Well. if the parents get to me, they've already heard the industry's side of things. I just present the "other side" and I don't particularly pretend to be un-biased, either. When I explain things to parents, I say "you may have heard this, and here is the counterargument...". I always address both sides. You have to if you're going to change minds. My job is to un-balance, things, the way I see it, and I'm pretty up-front about that.

Actually your job as a humanitarian is to be fair and open, Michael.  If you withhold information you could deny a child getting the help he/she needs.  I could take the same position as you and assume the parents have already read all the bad stuff about programs.  I don’t need to refer them to fornits or “tales from the gulag” or warn them about the dangers, I can assume they already know that like you do.

As long as it doesn't conflict with a school you refer to, right? Think about it.

You are very wrong in accusing me this way and you know it.  You want others to be honest but you live by your own rules, think about it.  I am surprised of all people you would acuse others without knowing them.

[FemanonFatal2.0]

I understand that you might fear for your job if you answer this honestly, but for the sake of the greater good I hope that you may lead by example here.

What if, a referral or "ed-con" service existed that was on first priority dedicated to protecting the rights and ensuring the welfare of the children it placed. Enough to become the ONLY referral service that 100% guaranteed that any child placed by them would not be abused or the parent would be assisted with the help of the company to take legal action against the offending staff or program. What if the programs were under strict regulation contract by this referral company that included specific principals of good practice, extensive background checks, unannounced visits and access to Child Protective Services and possibly a security system. What if licensing, health codes, medical, psychological and educational standards were all strictly enforced, and a "tough love" program were converted to a "real love" program. Would you work for a company that upheld these values? and furthermore, how could you work for a company that does not? especially when teen's lives are at stake here.

I just wanted to let you know that I have plans to create a parent site, a site that will essentially spoon feed this information in a way that they are able to take seriously. I can't change the stories of the individuals who wrote about their experience but I would be willing to post stories from students who felt that the program did some good, and allow the parent to weigh the pros and cons. IN FACT I could also include a worksheet they can use to do their research to properly evaluate the pros and cons. My only concern is that some parents are so desperate to get their child into treatment that they are not willing to put in the time it takes to do the proper screening, instead they hire someone like you to do that job for them. I would be much happier to see you and all Ed-Con's alike to develop a proper investigation process and refuse to refer to any school that has allegations of abuse against them. I would also recommend you put your foot down with referring to a program run by staff that have allegations of abuse against them or ran any programs that had similar problems. Making a moral statement like, "Abuse is not something we will tolerate!" and only give your business to the schools that really are doing it right. If this isn't something your office can handle, I recommend that you encourage them to hire a team who can. Hell, hire me. This is a plan I hope can be developed in conjunction with government regulation, and I intend to be part of that team, but as that hasn't become a reality yet, I wouldn't mind giving your "team" some pointers if they are willing.

I can only hope something good come of all this. I am sorry if you have felt attacked, it is our nature after all, to distrust. But I do believe that you are a good person, however misguided you may be, I believe there is hope that you are willing to do the right thing.

[Anonymous]

How is ISACCORP in direct conflict? All they try to do is provide objective information warning parents of substantiated accounts of abuse, not to mention warning signs about programs. Are you telling me that if a parent came to you and you knew there was information on ISAC about a school you refer to, you wouldn't let them know about... It just seems to me like that's trying to be a bit deceptive to parents.. hiding information. What do you tell them if they ask if there have been any allegations of abuse?

We are not in agreement with all the schools on their list and some of the dialog so we don’t refer to it. We don’t withhold information. We are not hiding anything. There are areas we don’t agree with. How many times do you refer people to strugglingteens.com? or promote positive aspects of programs? Would you consider that deceptive? I can honestly say that I inform parents with as much credible information as I can provide to help them make a decision.

1.) "Some of the dialog" on IsacCorp is objectionable? Is there any "dialog" on IsacCorp? Seems to me that for the most part it is just people's testimony in the form of sworn statements, court documents, and news articles, etc. Whatever informative portions that IsacCorp is responsible for writing are incredibly restrained, if anything. Certainly there is no "dialog." It doesn't sound like "KathyS" has ever been to their website.

2.) How is not referring parents to IsacCorp NOT equivalent to withholding information on a particular program, when you know that there is information on that particular program on IsacCorp? This sounds to me like typical spin marketing, where an incorrect inference about a product is brought about by the deliberate omission of some actually very relevant information. While not technically a lie, the desired associations and impressions brought about in the consumer are a lie. Some might even call it fraudulent advertising.

3.) As to material from Struggling Teens, there is actually quite a lot of it posted here on fornits, complete with links. Doesn't sound so "deceptive" to me. It sounds like "KathyS" has actually done very little reading on fornits prior to her entrance via the ruse of gool ol' Martha!

[Anonymous]

http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 0505.shtml

[Anonymous]

Apparently the alleged changes have not been as broad or far-reaching as claimed (comment at bottom of link):

December 08, 2008

I am quite upset with the response from the family school. They said these actions took place years ago and that things have evolved from then. That's not all true, I graduated from FFS December 2004 and still remember the things I went through. They bothered me for a long time and they still do till this day.


Darrillyn Boyce
famgirldee@msn.com

[Anonymous]

I understand that you might fear for your job if you answer this honestly, but for the sake of the greater good I hope that you may lead by example here.

What if, a referral or "ed-con" service existed that was on first priority dedicated to protecting the rights and ensuring the welfare of the children it placed. Enough to become the ONLY referral service that 100% guaranteed that any child placed by them would not be abused or the parent would be assisted with the help of the company to take legal action against the offending staff or program. What if the programs were under strict regulation contract by this referral company that included specific principals of good practice, extensive background checks, unannounced visits and access to Child Protective Services and possibly a security system. What if licensing, health codes, medical, psychological and educational standards were all strictly enforced, and a "tough love" program were converted to a "real love" program. Would you work for a company that upheld these values? and furthermore, how could you work for a company that does not? especially when teen's lives are at stake here.

In a perfect world that would be ideal and I would love to be part of that business. It is something we could all work towards.  I have to work in the world that I have.  If that job existed I would quit my job tomorrow and go work for them.

I just wanted to let you know that I have plans to create a parent site, a site that will essentially spoon feed this information in a way that they are able to take seriously. I can't change the stories of the individuals who wrote about their experience but I would be willing to post stories from students who felt that the program did some good, and allow the parent to weigh the pros and cons. IN FACT I could also include a worksheet they can use to do their research to properly evaluate the pros and cons. My only concern is that some parents are so desperate to get their child into treatment that they are not willing to put in the time it takes to do the proper screening, instead they hire someone like you to do that job for them. I would be much happier to see you and all Ed-Con's alike to develop a proper investigation process and refuse to refer to any school that has allegations of abuse against them. I would also recommend you put your foot down with referring to a program run by staff that have allegations of abuse against them or ran any programs that had similar problems. Making a moral statement like, "Abuse is not something we will tolerate!" and only give your business to the schools that really are doing it right. If this isn't something your office can handle, I recommend that you encourage them to hire a team who can. Hell, hire me. This is a plan I hope can be developed in conjunction with government regulation, and I intend to be part of that team, but as that hasn't become a reality yet, I wouldn't mind giving your "team" some pointers if they are willing.

I am all ears.  There is very little that I can do in my current position to make changes.  I am too well known for rocking the boat as it is.  It would be difficult to get parents attention long enough in the beginning because by the time they seek out an ed con they are in crisis.  They are looking for solutions quickly.  Sometimes if the child is isolated from the immediate problems or danger then the parents are able to focus on what is best long term and can be in a better position to weigh options and do research and proper screening on their own.  Many families work on this while the child is in wilderness or in a 30 day evaluation/program.  This would be a good time to approach them with you worksheet to help guide them thru to the next step.
You should keep at what you are doing and persue it,its a good idea.  If I could test out your worksheets for you I would.  But I would be fired for sure and I cant afford that right now.

I can only hope something good come of all this. I am sorry if you have felt attacked, it is our nature after all, to distrust. But I do believe that you are a good person, however misguided you may be, I believe there is hope that you are willing to do the right thing.

There has been much good that has come out of this so far for me.  I have learned a few things about myself.  Thank you for your kind words.

[Anonymous]

As to material from Struggling Teens, there is actually quite a lot of it posted here on fornits, complete with links. Doesn't sound so "deceptive" to me.

We do the same thing.  We share the information with parents, we just don’t refer them to the site.  Similar to fornits.

[Anonymous]

Here's another question: could you get fired if you referred a parent to isaccorp?

Yes, Because we refer to schools/programs which are on their list. This is in direct conflict with what we do.

We are not in agreement with all the schools on their list and some of the dialog so we don’t refer to it. We don’t withhold information. We are not hiding anything.

In a perfect world that would be ideal and I would love to be part of that business. It is something we could all work towards. I have to work in the world that I have. If that job existed I would quit my job tomorrow and go work for them.


As to material from Struggling Teens, there is actually quite a lot of it posted here on fornits, complete with links. Doesn't sound so "deceptive" to me.

We do the same thing. We share the information with parents, we just don’t refer them to the site. Similar to fornits.

Kathy, as an uneducated moron, you don’t appreciate the difference between anon internet users posting certain links & you, in your position as  contracted “education consultant,” concealing evidence of torture about an organization you push.

Ideally, after reading multiple sworn testimonies of systematic false imprisonment and systematic torture a light-bulb would go off and you’d think, "hey, these FFS people shouldn't be allowed to hold kids in involentary confinement." Sadly, you are evil/stupid, so you don’t make that connection.

The fact remains, however, you are legally and ethically obligated to not conceal evidence of torture you know exists about a gulag you are selling

It is interesting to learn that there is a deliberate conspiracy on the part of your company to conceal that sort of information from clients.

Nice to have informed us that you purposely engage in conspiracy, fraud, conspiracy to commit false imprisonment and abuse, negligence of due care and a variety of other crimes.

Congratulations, you’ve just confessed. Anyone up for I.P. subpoenas?

[Anonymous]

Guest: I have internal information, but I would need to strip the header and would not be able to post the entire report due to legal complications because they dont belong to me, so I am posting something similar but accurate:

The Family Foundation School is accredited as a school by the Middle States Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, the New York State Department of Education and is accredited as a behavioral health care facility by the Joint Commission

1.    From 2004 through 2008, all Family Foundation School graduates have been accepted at postsecondary institutions, with 85 percent to four-year colleges and 15 percent to two-year schools or professional training.

2.    A Family Foundation School Alumni Association was established after the school held its first alumni reunion in September 2006. More than 125 former students from around the United States attended the reunion

3.    The school's English and Philosophy instructor and middle school principal, Jan Cheripko, is the author of nine books, has won numerous national and international book awards and has been a featured speaker at the National Council of Teachers of English, the International Reading Association, and numerous other New York State and Northeastern U.S. regional education conferences. He has also conducted graduate teaching accredited workshops on how to reach at-risk students through writing and literature

4.    After the hearings:
The school responded by declaring their support of the efforts of the committee to keep children safe from harm, adding that they had since modified their crisis-management methods to meet the standards of both the New York State Department of Education and the Therapeutic Crisis Intervention (TCI) program developed by Cornell University. The school also stated that since 1999, all school faculty and staff are required to be trained in Therapeutic Crisis Intervention techniques.

5.    The Family Foundation School's extracurricular programs include sports teams, drama productions, musical programs, an art department and a wide variety of clubs.

6.    The school's performing arts program presents full-scale musicals, drama productions, winter and spring choral concerts that are open to the public. and is a regular participant in the North American Music Festivals.

7.    In 2004 and 2005, the school's debating team won the Seventh annual Delaware-Otsego Bar Associations Forensic Speech Tournament, a regional debating competition.

8.    The school soccer team won the championship in the New York State Class D, Section IX Conference in 2005. FFS alumnus Wells Thompson plays Major League Soccer for the New England Revolution

Do you still think it is a secret society of thought reform and torture?  You need to distance yourselves from web sites like “stories for the Gulag” and the other one which actually seemed worse but I cant remember its name.  You should try reading more main stream information to get more a perspective.

Way to just take stuff off the wikipedia advertising page.  There are way too many things wrong with the FFS "response to the testimony" to even go into here.  If you want to have an honest dialogue about FFS I'm more than willing to go far into detail, but my time is limited, so I don't have the ability to be here on fornits nearly enough to go into this.  While the facts you see from the wiki may be impressive, the school ALSO had a suicide in 2004, despite having an 8 to 1 student to staff ratio.  The testimonies of students ranging from 2 years out, to 10 years out, report much of the same abuse.  Even the response FFS issued simply states that the "blankets" were "in accordance with first aid for seizures" at the time.  Even if you believe that hogwash, it mentions NOTHING about the use of DUCT TAPE to wrap kids up and leave them in isolation rooms covered in piss for DAYS!!  Just because some success stories happen in the way of grades, and even athletics in a school where kids have NO ACCESS to anything else in the outside world does not mean it is not a thought reform program.  Why not look at the fact that most, if not all, of the alumni from the earlier years suffer from severe PTSD, all have nightmares about their stays at FFS, and that some have reported being MOLESTED by Paul Geer, the musical director, as evidence that something is awry?  If you do your "research" from wikipedia and calling FFS and the list of cherry picked graduates and families that they refer you to, OF COURSE the school looks good.  Why not get a list of ALL students willing to talk.  Go to the myspace group.  Go to the facebook group.  Call Jennie Yabroff at Newsweek for HER notes after doing interviews with a long list of students that FFS thought would give great info to counter the testimonies....and they too were wrong.  The students, even those saying good things, all admitted to levels of abuse and torture.  

What will help you see you are WRONG?  FFS is NOT SAFE!!!

HI JOHN,
CAN YOU ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS FOR ME:

Pursued charges against the FFS administration?

Have you reported your experience to the police in that district?

What about suing?
Thanks.

[psy]

Congratulations, you’ve just confessed. Anyone up for I.P. subpoenas?

I don't think there is a crime here, actually.  What Kathy has done, as far as I know, is perfectly legal (it might be a civil matter though, afaik).  Second, Fornits protects the IP info of all posters.  Even the industry members.  If they felt it was not safe to post here, this would become a totally one-sided discussion and then this site would be little better than one of theirs.  Personally, I have found this discussion incredibly interesting in that it provides insight into the mind of an educational consultant.  I think parents reading this thread might reconsider hiring one.  That's the real value here, and far more useful than any one court victory, criminal or civil.