Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Aspen Education Group
Split from ASR: Private School or RTC
RobertBruce:
--- Quote ---I am not saying abuse doesn?t exist, I am saying it isn?t out of whack with the rest of the world.
--- End quote ---
So because child abuse is common its not that big of a deal????
Of course this contridicts your earlier comment that if the abuse was really as prevalent as we make it out to be it would be on the news. You cant have it both ways.
--- Quote ---Yes it definitely can be if adequately funded for both sides and implemented slowly and properly.
--- End quote ---
Funded for both sides? Is 12 years enough time to implement regulation?
--- Quote ---Quote:
but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.
I guess I should have said, ?From what I have seen, thus far??, it is my opinion??..?
--- End quote ---
Based on what? You keep dismissing the abuse.
TheWho:
--- Quote --- So because child abuse is common its not that big of a deal????
--- End quote ---
Hmmm. Not sure I said that. You keep wanting me to say I dismiss abuse when I don?t. Abuse occurs, all over and we need to get rid of it.. I think what we need to establish is where kids can be the safest from being abused. I think TBS?s are a safe place, I think some public schools are less safe. I believe some of the numbers are supporting this assertion.
You may have a different point of view, Bob, It doesn?t make you intrinsically wrong, we are just looking at it from different angles. I could accuse you of not seeing it my way and dismissing the fact that the public school systems are always in the news with stories of teachers raping students and shootings etc. and you dismiss the fact that TBS?s are never in the news. But I don?t work that way and I don?t think that is a true reflection on a persons beliefs
--- Quote --- Funded for both sides? Is 12 years enough time to implement regulation?
--- End quote ---
Too much time, should have been done in 3 years tops. Look at how quickly it took to get regulation on the food industry.
--- Quote --- Based on what? You keep dismissing the abuse.
--- End quote ---
Based on some preliminary numbers we are seeing.
Oz girl:
But Who you continually dismiss abuse. Here are some occasions thus far.
-You have no problem with ASRs policy of having kids carry "symbolic" rocks as featured in What it takes....
-You are OK with coerced therapy even if it ends with students weeping in the foetal position on the floor
-You dont see that if a program is a profit making venture it should have any regulatory oversite because it is a law unto itself. This is an environment which by its nature encurages abuse to flourish.
-You have no problem with Escorts being employed to take terrified kids in the middle of the night
-You are ok with incarceration without trial or medical evidence of a mental illness so severe that the child and community are at risk
-You see no problem with strip searches or a wilderness programme which drastically limits food intake while forcing hardcore excercise
-You see no problem with a girl who is anorexic and possibly still detoxing from a cocktail of drugs going on this.
Troll Control:
--- Quote from: ""TheWho"" ---
--- Quote ---The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT. All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT. So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.
So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.
--- End quote ---
I think it can be said that when it comes to children there are no voluntary treatments. I don?t believe many kids approach their parents and say ?Mom, Dad, I think I would like to speak to a therapist?. If we were held to this requirement not many kids would get help. Until a child is 18 it is up the parents to get them the treatment needed. The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track. There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step. The therapy can be introduced after they settle in.
--- Quote ---Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed. You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.
HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.
So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE! The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.
OK?
--- End quote ---
No, I am not. The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push. How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track. Some parents will goes as far as saying? You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity? I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.
As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.
--- End quote ---
Wow. I just don't know where even to start debunking this steaming pile...
COERCED treatment does not work. Period. Children cannot be forced to be "therapized" in the most restrictive environment other than a lock-down pych center or jail. It cannot work and does not work. Show me a single clinical study that shows it does and I'll crack the door on that argument, but until I see compelling scientific evidence, I must side with a century's worth of scientific evidence that says it doesn't.
Perpetrators: Not only are they not dealt with swiftly, often they're not dealt with at all and continue to abuse children in their care for decades. Example : Rudy Bentz. Another example (too little too late): Randall Hinton - 20 years of abusing kids, pepper spraying them and locking them in dog cages and all we have is a single assault charge from this year. Bad, bad record of accountability and enforcement. That's just two examples, but I could make a very, very long list.
This is why nobody listens to what you say, Who. You are just woefully uninformed and even when spoonfed the documented facts from court records, criminal hearings, etc you still remain in DENIAL OF THE FACTS.
TheWho:
--- Quote from: ""Dysfunction Junction"" ---
--- Quote from: ""TheWho"" ---
--- Quote ---The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT. All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT. So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.
So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.
--- End quote ---
I think it can be said that when it comes to children there are no voluntary treatments. I don?t believe many kids approach their parents and say ?Mom, Dad, I think I would like to speak to a therapist?. If we were held to this requirement not many kids would get help. Until a child is 18 it is up the parents to get them the treatment needed. The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track. There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step. The therapy can be introduced after they settle in.
--- Quote ---Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed. You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.
HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.
So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE! The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.
OK?
--- End quote ---
No, I am not. The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push. How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track. Some parents will goes as far as saying? You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity? I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.
As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.
--- End quote ---
Wow. I just don't know where even to start debunking this steaming pile...
COERCED treatment does not work. Period. Children cannot be forced to be "therapized" in the most restrictive environment other than a lock-down pych center or jail. It cannot work and does not work. Show me a single clinical study that shows it does and I'll crack the door on that argument, but until I see compelling scientific evidence, I must side with a century's worth of scientific evidence that says it doesn't.
Perpetrators: Not only are they not dealt with swiftly, often they're not dealt with at all and continue to abuse children in their care for decades. Example : Rudy Bentz. Another example (too little too late): Randall Hinton - 20 years of abusing kids, pepper spraying them and locking them in dog cages and all we have is a single assault charge from this year. Bad, bad record of accountability and enforcement. That's just two examples, but I could make a very, very long list.
This is why nobody listens to what you say, Who. You are just woefully uninformed and even when spoonfed the documented facts from court records, criminal hearings, etc you still remain in DENIAL OF THE FACTS.
--- End quote ---
Agreed!! The child needs to be place in the ?Least restrictive environment?, for some this is a therapists office for others it is a lock down psych or jail.
These TBS?s are not locked down facilities. You can leave anytime you want. When the child feels safe and settled in enough to work on his/her issues then the therapy can begin, not before. These are not my feelings alone, DJ, the schools come highly recommended by therapists, the kids are treated by therapists and work with the childs home support team who are typically (or include) therapists. If there is ever a concern about the child not getting the proper treatment or abuse is occurring there are many avenues to report it.
As far as abuse goes, sure I have said before and I?ll say it again?..abuse occurs everywhere that children go to school, reside and play. We can site individual cases in the public and private sector. The trick is to identify the place that is safest for the child to be.
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