Author Topic: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH  (Read 17202 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2006, 09:35:00 AM »
***By reading about programs and how they work you will not get a sense for them being positive. The element that is missing is need. If you had a child at risk that needed intervention and help to get back on track you may start to see the benefits that some of these programs can provide. Sort of like a horse to a city person, they see the expense, smell and space they take up (not much value there) maintenance etc. could not convince them that the horse adds value. You take this same person and place them in a field and ask them to grow food, the horse becomes his number one asset and is your ticket to plowing****

I fail to see how any of these analogies have anything to do with the rampant abuse perpetuated in the name of progress at treatment programs. Children are not horses and the overall level of benifits provided by programs are at best dubious and minute.

***ASR, SUWS programs seem to be effective for some kids.***

You confirm my own suspicion that Suws and ASR SEEM to be effective for some kids. EVERY single one of the kids I encountered from SUWS in Three Springs was a problematic hell raisers of the worst order. I have no knowledge of ASR but judging from the snow job they have pulled on you I doubt I even want to know much.

SUWS is a low success program that blatantly uses fraud to dupe stupid parents into blowing thousands of dollars on their hokey little version of therapy.

ASR will likewise prove to be a fraud. Given a bit of time the truth that has already come out about that miserable sham of a pit will soon be common knowledge. ASR will join the ranks of TB and other sick organizations with their noteriety.
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Offline TheWho

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Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2006, 10:11:00 AM »
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I fail to see how any of these analogies have anything to do with the rampant abuse perpetuated in the name of progress at treatment programs. Children are not horses and the overall level of benifits provided by programs are at best dubious and minute.

The analogy wasn?t intended to address the problems of abuse, this wasn?t being discussed, it was to demonstrate ?Need? and ?Value?.  The person living in the city did not see the value of owning a horse until there was a need.  This was used to show that the average person would not see any value in placing their children in a program until there was a demonstrated or apparent need.  Horses and children were not compared.  The horses were compared to TBS?s

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You confirm my own suspicion that Suws and ASR SEEM to be effective for some kids. EVERY single one of the kids I encountered from SUWS in Three Springs was a problematic hell raisers of the worst order. I have no knowledge of ASR but judging from the snow job they have pulled on you I doubt I even want to know much.

Not seem,  they are effective and hopefully will continue to improve.  I have met many ?Problematic hell raisers of the worst order? who never even heard of SUWS, they are everywhere.  Raising hell can be a good thing, TSW, Wilderness programs are not for everyone and are not effective with all kids.  We need more kids who are willing to raise hell, make a difference, change the laws, find a cure for cancer etc.  This is a good thing !!

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SUWS is a low success program that blatantly uses fraud to dupe stupid parents into blowing thousands of dollars on their hokey little version of therapy.

ASR will likewise prove to be a fraud. Given a bit of time the truth that has already come out about that miserable sham of a pit will soon be common knowledge. ASR will join the ranks of TB and other sick organizations with their noteriety.


Well, that?s the good thing about open debate; we can all voice our opinions.  We can go back and forth all day, but, the proof is in the kids and how well they get back on track and move on with their lives, which, to date, has been extremely well.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2006, 10:24:00 AM »
How are you involved with these programs now?

Do you refer parents to programs now?

Are you an Ed Con?

Do you have a relationship with Sue Scheff?
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2006, 10:29:00 AM »
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How are you involved with these programs now?

I am not actively involved with any specific program .

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Do you refer parents to programs now?

If you mean do I get paid, no

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Are you an Ed Con?

No

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Do you have a relationship with Sue Scheff?


No, I don?t.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2006, 11:12:00 AM »
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TSW  Wrote:  When you send your kid to your room do you call it putting him in isolation?



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The Who:  No, This is what they call it here at fornits


That's such bullshit.  Dont' exaggerate Who.  You know exactly what we mean.  Nobody here calls sending a kid to their room isolation.  There is a HUGE difference between the type of discipline that TSW and Deborah were talking about and the kind of shit that goes on in those hellholes.





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TSW: Or do you just say, "GET IN YOUR ROOM TILL YOU MIND YOUR MOUTH!! ETC..."



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The Who: Exactly, no human rights denied, although if you place a child in a room to mind their mouth it is considered isolation to many here, that is why I refer to it as such.

See above answer.





 
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TSW: Do you devise a treatment plan for your kid when they are in their rooms?



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The Who: Yes, maybe he can still attend parties but may not take the family car until he shows more responsibility.



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TSW: Does it have intervention goals and a clear objective to correct anti-social behavior?

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The Who: Yes, most of the time, if the behavior is really out of hand.

Again, I think most parents that end up sending their kid have bought hook, line and sinker into this pathological mentality.  Not to mention that in a program the kids are subjected to the whims of the staff.  Said staff has absolute power and control over the kids.   Pleasing staff and pleasing parents are two very different things.



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TSW: Do you have your children count down while they are on the can?



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The Who: Actually, I have, but they were very young at the time and we use to follow up with ?Blast off?  !!!  Long story, but definitely not abusive.  It was a lot of fun.  So I guess it is all in how you apply it.

Again, don't make light of the situation.  You know very well what we mean.  YOu most certainly do NOT give your kid 30 seconds on the toilet.  YOu do NOT count down while watching her shit and threaten to yank her off if she's not done in time.




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TSW: Do you have a nightly in your back yard so you can help your kids deal with their issues whilst sitting around a campfire?



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The Who: Not every night, but when we use to go camping we may talk about serious issues once in a while if warranted, but mostly scary stories and such that were more fun.


Are the expected to confess their deepest, darkest secrets to the "group" only to have those secrets used against her later in her program?  No?  Yeah, didn't think so.  Don't be an asshole.  YOu know goddman good and well what we're talking about.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2006, 11:40:00 AM »
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Again, don't make light of the situation. You know very well what we mean. YOu most certainly do NOT give your kid 30 seconds on the toilet. YOu do NOT count down while watching her shit and threaten to yank her off if she's not done in time

No I don?t know that you meant that !!  You attended a program that I am not familiar with, if they did that then that is wrong.  I guess we need to be specific on what school you are talking about and the time frame.  That just isn?t normal.


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Are the expected to confess their deepest, darkest secrets to the "group" only to have those secrets used against her later in her program? No? Yeah, didn't think so. Don't be an asshole. YOu know goddman good and well what we're talking about..


Well, I think if you read back you will see what I am talking about.  You are applying one situation/experience to all programs.  If I told you a friend of mine came out of a program?.. started his own business and is doing well, could we conclude that all programs are 100% effective and good for every child that goes there?  Does every kid that does not attend a program do well,  is the suicide rate at 0% for those who do not attend a program?
Each event is separate and independent, if you had a bad experience we should try to expose it, correct it and improve it for the next generation of kids.
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Offline Anonymous

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Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2006, 11:49:00 AM »
To Mr. Who,

Were you EVER "actively involved" in a program?  If so, which one?

Did you EVER get paid to refer kids to programs?

Were you EVER an ED-Con, worked with one or anyone in that field?

Did you EVER have a relationship with Sue Sheff?

Did you EVER send a child of yours to a program, if so, which one and what do you think of it?

Thanks
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2006, 11:52:00 AM »
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On 2006-06-20 08:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

, if you had a bad experience we should try to expose it, correct it and improve it for the next generation of kids.

"


That's what you're not getting!  There IS no improving it.  It's a flawed concept from the get go.  Isolation (from society as a whole, extended family, close friends) is not therapeutic.  Levels, seminars, etc. are not therapeutic and have a huge potential for abuse given the absolute power the staff weilds over those kids (see Stanford Prison Study).  Plus the fact that virtually every program that opens up uses some form of "we're the better program", "we're not like those places".  Look at the paper trail of places that have been closed down for abuse.  You'll find that most of the staff just disperses into the industry, change a few names, puts a fresh coat of paint on it and starts back up again.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2006, 12:19:00 PM »
To Mr. Who,

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Were you EVER "actively involved" in a program? If so, which one?
No, I wasnt

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Did you EVER get paid to refer kids to programs?
No

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Were you EVER an ED-Con, worked with one or anyone in that field?
No

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Did you EVER have a relationship with Sue Sheff?
No

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Did you EVER send a child of yours to a program, if so, which one and what do you think of it?
Yes, ASR.  It is and was an evolving program which focus?s on building a childs self esteem, self discipline, gets them back to academics , if needed etc.  They provided a safe environment for my daughter to grow and mature and start to focus on her own needs and what was healthy for her future path.  The transition back home was tough for her coming out of what the kids referred to as ?The bubble? (a safe place).  She initially tried to catch up on everything that she missed out on (i.e. drinking and smoking etc.) and I was a little worried at first that she would go down hill.  But we had developed a great communication during her stay at ASR and our participation as parents that we were able to talk things through and set boundaries and expectations for the entire family.  The tools that she gathered during her stay there helped her to stay focused on what was healthy for her and eventually took control of her own life and is doing well.  I was told that ASR has addressed the transitional concerns that some of us parents had and that it is smoother now.  The school continues to grow and change with the needs of the children.


She also attended SUWS of the Carolinas which was a great experience for her.  If we had taken before and after pictures that would have provided proof enough of its effectiveness !!  She was so happy and healthy when we meet her on the trail on the last day.  We went back to our individual camp sites (lean to) and was able to take care of us for the night, started the fire (no matches) cooked us dinner (lentils, rice and garlic), I think she enjoyed seeing me struggle to force the food down, she knows how much I hated to eat lentils, I was looking around for a steak to throw on, then we had to sleep on the cold ground all night on some sleeping apparel she made for us.  It was a sleepless night, I guess she got the last laugh and was enjoying every minute, especially when she had to wake me up (which was a switch) to go for a hike and had to wait an hour to get to a bathroom.

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Thanks


Your welcome.

[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-06-20 09:39 ]
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2006, 12:34:00 PM »
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That's what you're not getting! There IS no improving it. It's a flawed concept from the get go. Isolation (from society as a whole, extended family, close friends) is not therapeutic. Levels, seminars, etc. are not therapeutic and have a huge potential for abuse given the absolute power the staff weilds over those kids (see Stanford Prison Study).

Sending a kid to summer camp is isolation also by your definition or detention at school (they are not allowed to go home on the bus, isolated from their friends)

The mental health field disagrees with you, top therapists are recommending these TBS to many children every day, to the contrary it is very therapeutic.  Yes, there is always the potential for abuse.

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Plus the fact that virtually every program that opens up uses some form of "we're the better program", "we're not like those places".

Of course, they have to try to get a strong foothold in the industry, especially if a program is starting out.  Look at the cell phone industry, very cut throat?.which has the most minutes, text messaging, latest technology.  If you want to be successful one must show you are better than the other schools.  This is extremely healthy for the industry because the schools which don?t keep up and are abusive will dry-up and close and the newer schools will incorporate all the latest studies and models that are working.


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Look at the paper trail of places that have been closed down for abuse. You'll find that most of the staff just disperses into the industry, change a few names, puts a fresh coat of paint on it and starts back up again.


This may be true, but I am sure if they are smart they will improve and not get shut down again, competition can be merciless and they will not succeed unless they change and keep up.
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2006, 01:46:00 PM »
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The mental health field disagrees with you, top therapists are recommending these TBS to many children every day, to the contrary it is very therapeutic.


you are a fucking blatant liar.  you just make up your answers and have no facts to support them.  show the EVIDENCE that this environment is therapeutic.  the "mental health field" disagrees with YOU on this issue.  there are plenty of studies, position statements and guidelines that RULE OUT these types of facilities.  you are an unbelieveable know-nothing liar.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2006, 02:28:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-20 09:34:00, TheWho wrote:


Sending a kid to summer camp is isolation also by your definition or detention at school (they are not allowed to go home on the bus, isolated from their friends)

Bullshit and you know it.  This is what pisses me off about you.  Of course I don't consider regular summer camp or detention isolation.  Kids at summer camp can write to their friends and family without having their correspondence monitored and censored.


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The mental health field disagrees with you, top therapists are recommending these TBS to many children every day, to the contrary it is very therapeutic.

Here we agree to a certain extent but I see it as a problem and you don't.  Yes, this "therapeutic community" approach is pervasive in the mental health field.  That's one of the major problems we have in getting the word out about how much damage can be and is done.  This has become so accepted since it's inception way back in the 70s (see Synanon and Chuch Deitrich, sp?).  That's where the TC mothodology began, from a known cult!!!


 
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Yes, there is always the potential for abuse.

But this industry seems to attract and breed those who enjoy the control and complete domination.  Again, see Stanford Prison Study.

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Of course, they have to try to get a strong foothold in the industry, especially if a program is starting out.  Look at the cell phone industry, very cut throat?.which has the most minutes, text messaging, latest technology.

I don't even know how to respond to someone who would seriously try and compare the cell phone industry to the teen "help" industry.

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This is extremely healthy for the industry because the schools which don?t keep up and are abusive will dry-up and close and the newer schools will incorporate all the latest studies and models that are working.

In theory that would be great but it doesn't work that way.  And again, it's a flawed concept from the start.  There is no improving on something that is fundamentally flawed.

Quote
This may be true, but I am sure if they are smart they will improve and not get shut down again, competition can be merciless and they will not succeed unless they change and keep up.

"


Wrong.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2006, 02:47:00 PM »
Families arrive at the Academy at Swift River so ready to get their unruly child out of the house that few ask for statistics demonstrating a successful track record.

Good thing. The school, located in a former dairy, is run by a for-profit company and DOES NOT COMPILE SUCH FIGURES.

They cry. They curse. They conspire to run away. They disclose secrets about abuses suffered. One day, a student has an apparent breakthrough in therapy. Soon after, she's having sex with a classmate in the bathroom.

One unorthodox punishment is to withhold spices ? INCLUDING SALT ? from students' food.

Swift River revolves around ritual, yet the staff struggles, and sometimes fails, to keep order. The intensity of the work leads to burnout. One beloved teacher is later spotted by a former student working in a New York deli.

Marcus shows how out-of-control teenagers have spawned a lucrative industry. Consultants advise parents on the best therapeutic boarding schools. Psychologists apply labels. Drug companies keep the pills coming.

The only misfit in this well-crafted book is the title: It's unclear what it takes to pull these kids through. Counselors acknowledge some would outgrow their problems without Swift River. And one kid who absorbs all the nurturing Swift River can provide still ends up dead of an overdose.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib ... teens.html

Any news articles on this death?

Inquiring minds want to know....

Where are the stats that might show a successful track record? Deaths? Injuries? Assaults? PTSD?
Why do they not compile such data?

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-06-20 11:59 ]
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2006, 03:09:00 PM »
***If you want to be successful one must show you are better than the other schools. This is extremely healthy for the industry because the schools which don?t keep up and are abusive will dry-up and close and the newer schools will incorporate all the latest studies and models that are working.

There is nothing in the 30-some year history of the industry to indicate that this is true or accurate.

Do you have any idea how many have been shut down and reopened under a new name? And as someone else noted, staff just cycle through the industry from program to program.

Can you give us even one example of the latest studies and models for BM warehouses, that any program is currently utilizing?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2006, 03:11:00 PM »
Thanks Deborah, I had this link and lost it.  For those of you who are not familiar, these (Deborah?s post above)  are reviews and snippets from an author who spent time at ASR and wrote a book about his experiences there.
A little snippet from the same article:
David L. Marcus, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and contributing editor for U.S. News & World Report, spent more than a year inside the Academy at Swift River, known to some as the Princeton of "therapeutic" boarding schools.
In "What It Takes to Pull Me Through," Marcus focuses on four kids who are part of Group 23, a class that endures 14 months at Swift River.
Swift River promises no magic solutions. The curriculum, heavy on Walden Pond nature-loving, involves a lot of journal writing.
And yet, it's difficult to fault the parents??.
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