Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-19 21:28:00, Pls help wrote:

My point was that kids need to earn their privileges be it at school or at home or in life.  You may label it as abusive, if you must, but one needs to apply it across the board.  If they are given everything for free without consequence you threaten their very self esteem.  Kids need to earn and accomplish and achieve.


I think we can all agree that home is the best place for kids to learn, but we don?t live in a world of absolutes, there are exceptions to every rule and the very small percentage that need to grow outside the home for a short time and get back on track do extremely well, there is no denying this.

"



Yes but at home using the car having a later curfew or watching a favourite tv show may be "earned" priveliges which only get taken away when a kid does something wrong! Alot of programmes seem to work with the idea the kid deserves nothing including affection or family contact until they prove otherwise. I dont know if it is abuse but it is pretty mean spirited & I cant see how it brings out the best in a kid!

I certainly dont know how it builds self esteem! "

 :tup:  :tup:

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-19 21:12:00, Deborah wrote:


Are you an Ed Con, Who?"

I'd like an answer to that also.

[Rachael]

I hate it when the page goes all buggy like this.

If there is a God, he is a malign thug.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-19 19:52:00, Deborah wrote:

"

If a child is living at home and comes home late from a party he may be denied the use of the car for one week (isolation).

*Being denied use of the car for a week is not equivalent to isolation from the real world for 2 years, but you know that.



But if you add, cant talk to friends (peer restriction)

*Even if grounded, the kid still has social interaction at school.



No favorite snacks only basic food(loss of food privileges)

*Loosing snacks is not equivalent to being denied adequate calories for extended periods of time. It is also not equivalent to being forced to eat raw grains and beans, or even cooked grains and beans with no salt. In case you're unaware, salt is not just a condiment. When you're eating grains and beans it is a necessary digestive aid.



Has to stay in room (Severely restrict communication with parents)

*Again, nowhere equivalent to having a ten minute phone call once a week, provided s/he hasn't lost the 'privelge'.



Am I wrong?  Do you, or did you have custody/control of your kid?  

*So, I assume that in your example, the punishment exceeded the crime. Well, welcome to program methodology, where minor infractions are met with swift and irrational punishments.



We need to stop viewing this as black and white, who is at fault. The kids need to be told this is not their fault and many of these schools stress this point.

*What study was that comment derived from?  Which ?many? programs are you referring to?



Are you an Ed Con, Who?

Or a PR person for 'many' of these programs?

"

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-19 21:48:00, Rachael wrote:

"I hate it when the page goes all buggy like this.

If there is a God, he is a malign thug.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

"

It's the quote tags.  I think it was Pls Help's post.  Pls Help, could you be a dear and check your quote tags please? :smile:

If they don't catch it it'll clear up the next page.

[Rachael]

For the Who...


From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:


Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

>>>> I was not free, I was not safe.


Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

>>>> I was a slave, I was a servant to the every whim of my "oldcomers".


Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

>>>> I was subjected to torture, to very cruel, inhuman and degrading TREATMENT and punishment.


Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

>>>> I was hidden from the law, I had no lawmakers, or protectors to turn to. I was kept outside off the reach of the law. I could not ask for help from the law, and those who hurt me were not punished under the law.


Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

>>>> I was punished, ridiculed and humiliated for the audacity of claiming that I had rights.


Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

>>>> This will come, I will have my day.


Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

>>>> I was taken into a place of detention arbitrarily and kept there until I ran for my life without the ability to even challenge it.


Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

>>>> I had no trial.


Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

>>>> I was presumed guilty before I even committed a crime!


Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

>>>> This was the very nature of the "treatment" that was leveled against me.


Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

>>>> I didn't even have freedom of movement enough to go to the bathroom alone. I could not move an inch out of line. I had no freedom.


Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

>>>> My beliefs were stripped from me. I was broken, completely and utterly so that someone could put there beliefs where mine had been.


Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

>>>> I could not speak my opinions. I could not read, I could not write, I couldn't listen to anything but "the program".


Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

>>>> I had no rest; I was regularly denied even the necessity of sleep.


Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

>>>> I was denied medical care when direly needed, I was harmed and denied care.


Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education.

>>>> I was taken out of school, denied the right to attend.









I had all my rights denied me. I did not need to earn them. I am a human, and thus I "deserve" them.  


Go fuck yourself.

I tried not to work for, you know, anyone who ate children with their bare hands. I won't pretend that I was ideologically consistent.


--Dick Morris; Political consultant for Bill Clinton, Trent Lott and Tom Ridge

[Rachael]

Here's just a little bit more (This time from the Convention on the Rights of the Child --- incidentally a child is anyone under the age of 18.):


Article 37
States Parties shall ensure that:
(a) No child shall be subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offences committed by persons below eighteen years of age;

(b) No child shall be deprived of his or her liberty unlawfully or arbitrarily. The arrest, detention or imprisonment of a child shall be in conformity with the law and shall be used only as a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate period of time;

(c) Every child deprived of liberty shall be treated with humanity and respect for the inherent dignity of the human person, and in a manner which takes into account the needs of persons of his or her age. In particular, every child deprived of liberty shall be separated from adults unless it is considered in the child's best interest not to do so and shall have the right to maintain contact with his or her family through correspondence and visits, save in exceptional circumstances;

(d) Every child deprived of his or her liberty shall have the right to prompt access to legal and other appropriate assistance, as well as the right to challenge the legality of the deprivation of his or her liberty before a court or other competent, independent and impartial authority, and to a prompt decision on any such action.

Come the millennium,

month 12,

in the home of greatest power,

the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus

[Oz girl]

Hey you guys. i am sorry. I think I screwed up this page. I have not gotten the hang of quoting properly yet!

[Oz girl]

I think my playing with the quotes broke this page for good! from now on i think i will just paraphrase
 :cry2:
Any way! I am just curious who. In a previous thread   when i mentioned that i thought the idea of Wildreness therapy seemed good but i strongly disagreed with the negative mentality, you mentioned that some do not have this and just want allow struggling kids to get away from their troubles, get some hearty exercise and have some fun. I have searched the internet high and low to see if there are any such programmes. i could not find any! I looked at the places many parents recommended on struggling teens.

I also deliberately filled out a few assesments deliberately going with the most "mild" problems i could think of on 3 different sites, one of which was Aspen (Dr phil recommended after all) :wink:

None of them said that my "kid" was fine the way they are. Most of them recommended programmes which had some kind of "elements" component. None of them recommended the kids be allowed to write to anyone they want and some limited contact with the parents. They were all vague about what the kids were fed and those that outlined the kids day did not have any emphasis on any activities that seem much fun. All of the programmes were marketed to the parents. I would have thought that if this was meant to be a positive thing for the kid it would be marketed to them as well. Also it concerned me that most progammes has a catch all approach. Some of these programmes looked quite reputable in that they seemed to have well qualified staff.

So if these are the good quality ones, which programmes do take a Genuinely positive approach to the kid? Which ones are about the kid primarily having a great time and perhaps learning a little about themselves along the way?

[TheWho]

Rachael, my daughter, other kids and other parents I have spoken to and met have not been subjected to the horrors you mention and I am sorry it happened to you.  Not all schools are the same and as I have mentioned many times they need to change or they will eventually close down if they use these tactics.

TSW  Wrote:  When you send your kid to your room do you call it putting him in isolation?

No, This is what they call it here at fornits

Or do you just say, "GET IN YOUR ROOM TILL YOU MIND YOUR MOUTH!! ETC..."

Exactly, no human rights denied, although if you place a child in a room to mind their mouth it is considered isolation to many here, that is why I refer to it as such.

 

Do you devise a treatment plan for your kid when they are in their rooms?

Yes, maybe he can still attend parties but may not take the family car until he shows more responsibility.

Does it have intervention goals and a clear objective to correct anti-social behavior?

Yes, most of the time, if the behavior is really out of hand.  For example:  ?You may take the family car after you have shown you are responsible enough to come home on time for 3 consecutive weekends.  If this rule is broken we may take away the cell phone? (isolation from peers)

Do you have your children count down while they are on the can?

Actually, I have, but they were very young at the time and we use to follow up with ?Blast off?  !!!  Long story, but definitely not abusive.  It was a lot of fun.  So I guess it is all in how you apply it.

Do you have a nightly in your back yard so you can help your kids deal with their issues whilst sitting around a campfire?

Not every night, but when we use to go camping we may talk about serious issues once in a while if warranted, but mostly scary stories and such that were more fun.

Very strange questions, TSW.  

What the fuck is the deal here? Have you The Who been so emasculated as a parent that you can not even function in your role without spewing at them a bunch of program jibberish? For real man its ok to bitch at your kids and not have to call it an attitude correcting opportunity

Okay TSW, not sure where this is coming from, this isn?t my style at all.  You are mixing me up with someone else, I believe.

[TheWho]

One of the problems with this debate is that everyone has had different experiences from different schools.  They are just not all the same !!

Look at the problems at GITMO, young kids locked up for years, desperate to commit suicide etc.  If a person got out of there and went back to their country they would view the US prison system as extremely inhuman because this was their experience and understandably so.  But in reality we all know there are different prisons around the US.  Most have stopped complaining about the treatment because it has improved so much and they are protesting to get more cable channels and have the public pay for sex change operations, go fugure.

So it would be short sighted to view all prisons the same in the US based on ones experience in any one prison, be it GITMO or the federal prison where the CEO?s go for money fraud.

[TheWho]

Pls help -- If you want you can hit the edit button on the post that screwed up (The one that starts with Programs?)and delete the last:

[ /quote ]

This will fix it.

But I just noticed we are on a new page so it doesnt matter much.


[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-06-20 05:05 ]

[Oz girl]

done. cheers.  :cool:
Without seeming rude who, You still have not answered my question.
 I will admit that while i was initially quite clueless about what TBS & wilderness therapy was & therefore had an open mind, I am afraid those that espouse it have not done a thing to convince me of what it can do for a kid, but you seem to passionately believe in it as much as most here (now including myself) are horrified by it. But on this thread and on the widerness one you have said that there are may programmes which do not take a punitive approach or the view that the kids have something wrong that needs to be fixed. Which programmes are these exactly?
I also note that you were asked if you put your kids in isolation etc. I thing the big question is do your kids have to "earn" the right to eat whatever they want, get as much exercise as they need or most importantly do they have to "earn" your love..

[TheWho]

Wilderness Therapy:

 

Pls Help  Wrote:  None of them said that my "kid" was fine the way they are. Most of them recommended programmes which had some kind of "elements" component??  So if these are the good quality ones, which programmes do take a Genuinely positive approach to the kid? Which ones are about the kid primarily having a great time and perhaps learning a little about themselves along the way?.

Good question,  In the past parents relied on ?Outward bound? type programs which marketed to parents a worldly growing experience and team building that would make the children more social and successful in life etc. Kids would join boy scout and girl scouts which supposedly taught good values and supported proper social behavior.

But things are different today, not as innocent.  Most of the Wilderness programs provide an opportunity for the children to grow and they market to this audience, kids that have gotten off track.  The kids that use to attend these camps are staying home and playing soccer or video games there is just not much interest.

SUWS of the Carolinas was an excellent experience for, at least the group that I was involved with.  Some kids were really struggling with home issues and others just had a good time and one kid wanted to go back thru again.  But back to your point, this is way too expensive for the average family to send their kid away for just a few weeks of fun.  There are many trips that kids can go on throughout South America, Chile etc, which is fun ,I think there is a place located in Vermont which takes kids to travel, I will see if I can get their name.

[TheWho]

Pls Help wrote:
Without seeming rude who, You still have not answered my question.
I will admit that while i was initially quite clueless about what TBS & wilderness therapy was & therefore had an open mind, I am afraid those that espouse it have not done a thing to convince me of what it can do for a kid, but you seem to passionately believe in it as much as most here (now including myself) are horrified by it.

By reading about programs and how they work you will not get a sense for them being positive.  The element that is missing is need.  If you had a child at risk that needed intervention and help to get back on track you may start to see the benefits that some of these programs can provide.  Sort of like a horse to a city person, they see the expense, smell and space they take up (not much value there) maintenance etc. could not convince them that the horse adds value.  You take this same person and place them in a field and ask them to grow food, the horse becomes his number one asset and is your ticket to plowing.



 

But on this thread and on the widerness one you have said that there are may programmes which do not take a punitive approach or the view that the kids have something wrong that needs to be fixed. Which programmes are these exactly?

ASR, SUWS programs seem to be effective for some kids.

I also note that you were asked if you put your kids in isolation etc. I thing the big question is do your kids have to "earn" the right to eat whatever they want, get as much exercise as they need or most importantly do they have to "earn" your love..

Yes, I think we all earn what we get.  When the kids are young and they eat their dinner they get a nice dessert or treat afterwards.  Not sure about exercise, if you live on a farm it is sort of built into your daily routine, you don?t find many treadmills there.  If you live in an apartment you may and one can always do pushups or jog in place (that is what I use to do on rainy days in college.)
Love is something that just comes naturally, in my opinion, spending time with each other, respecting and growing together as a family.  Love is its own reward.