Majestic Ranch info please

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-01 06:34:00, Pls help wrote:

"Hi guys

I have checked out the potential legal situation here. It is not looking great. A judge letting an American kid go to American relatives is one thing. letting a kid go to people who are not even citizens of the country, when the kids biological parent lives there is another entirely.

I think Aardvark is right. It will probably be better if i could speak to my brohter face to face though as emails and phone calls are somewhat restrictive they also get quite tense & I am sensitive to the fact that i may alienate and cause a snap decision This is actually my biggest fear. Especially after reading about those horror escort services. @ least i have a body of reading on WWAPS programmes for him though. I found a psycholigist view of Casa by the Sea which was closed down that may help. I think when i send my niece back home I might take the vacation time & visit the US that way I can sit down and talk about the other options. As to the public education system, my niece is enrolled @ a private school. In spite of not loving the academic side she seems quite happy & has many friends. (another rsn why sending her away seems wrong)

Buzz kill I am sorry i should have read your email more thoroughly. I copied the link though and the passage to show my brother. I hope your son came out relatively unscathed from the WWASP school. Which one was it? Not one of the offsure ones i hope.



I have read the Bill Bryson book, i think it was marketed as Down under here. i was hilarious. i think he is a bit of a baby though. Nothing ever killed me  :wink: Just imagine Sanfrancisco or Oregon but with nicer weather & that is pretty much what Australia is like.



Just a final question and this may seem naive. If a kid goes willingly or even enthusiastically & is not there for behavoural issues per se, i would assume they would get through the levels more quickly. Dont the adults then have a hard time explaining why a child who has obviously progressed well is now "manupulating " or making up lies? I understand that here is a finanncial incentive to hold kids onto lower levels to some extent but sooner or later parents must question either why progress is slow or why if it is not a kid would lie?

Also do they not have any kind oof report card for parents? In Australia each teacher writes a different comment & gives their grade. This is an indicator of progress. Are parents not allowed to call & discuss results?  



"

Up front, I strongly support the work of alternative programs, and my long experience with the WWASPS schools (Not Majestic) has been extremely positive. So watching this exchange that villifies all WWASPS schools, by folks who have little or limited experience of them, makes me roll my eyes. The fact is that at some WWASPS schools, parents drop in all the time for unscheduled visits, as do law enforcement, educators, and other gov't agencies. So don't swallow everything you see or hear. Frankly, the histrionic alarmist approach of MA and Buzz tends to put people off, which hardly serves your purpose. That said, there are two elements of your story that concern me.

One is that your niece is far too young to go so far, and she does not fit the average toubled-kid profile, in which all other options have failed. Either part of the story is missing, or your brother is terribly misguided.

To address your question regarding willing students, if your niece really doesn't belong there, she will naturally react angrily to assumptions that she is a troubled kid, has behavior problems, etc. I can't imagine at ten that she'd be mature enough to just make the best of things and skip on through.

You could write a hundred e-mails or plead with your brother trying to convince him of your viewpoint, but it comes down to each of you having only secondary information. Why don't the two of you go visit the school together? You can affirm his parental authority and concern, recognize he's trying to do the right thing, but also demonstrate to him that there are other options.

You can also enlist a health professional to support your suggestion of seeing the place first-hand; health professionals will all agree that unless the situation is dire, you should never send your child anywhere without seeing the place first, and talking with the other students--without other staff there if possible. You can do this by talking in a room with a window, so that staff can't hear but can see you, to maintain the kids' safety.

This approach avoids setting you up as the antagonist and clarifies that you and your bro are on the same team. I hope this is helpful. Good luck.

[Oz girl]

Thank you for your post. Which WWASP school do you have experience of? I understand your concerns that there are many different schools possibly with different cultures and not being a citizen of the US I cant judge or comment. I absolutely agree that if my brother were to go through with this i would want to see the school and I would imagine that i could talk him into this if i were in the US @ the time.
I would also be happier if kids could write to anyone they wanted to. Could they @ your kids school?. I got the impression from the schools own website that phone calls were discouraged until the kid got to a certain point & it specifcally said that parents should not call before this point as it undermined the goals of the programme. The website also implied that kids could only write to parents and no nobody else. I assumed that if calls were so strongly frowned upon so would visits be. (particularly if you wanted to take the kid off campus) Was your experience of a WWASP school different?
My biggest worry is that after being pointed to other sites I have read some shocking things. The Isaccorp site mentioned some alarming things. The local media states & the links I have been provided with show that the principal was charged with sexual abuse. Having looked @ the schools website which was what lead me to do further research, I was surprised @ the lack of contact between students and parents and puzzled as to why children were not allowed to be sent treats or toys except on their birthday. Even if your child has severe behavioural issues it seems that this approach is harsh given that this is a school taking kids as young as 7 so I came looking to this site & others for genuine answers. It was then that I became more than worried and alarmed. I have read the newsletter that seems to cover all wwasp schools (provided on the majestic ranch website) and there seem to be some happy customers. Again though the emphasis seems to be on punishing kids till they see the light.
I dont think that this is what it takes to overcome a learning difficulty or to build a relationship with a stepparent. I have also become frightened by further research. I would be happy to hear your point of view & experiences although the alarming evidence against these schools is becoming overwhelming.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-01 12:09:00, Anonymous wrote:


Up front, I strongly support the work of alternative programs, and my long experience with the WWASPS schools (Not Majestic) has been extremely positive. So watching this exchange that villifies all WWASPS schools, by folks who have little or limited experience of them, makes me roll my eyes. The fact is that at some WWASPS schools, parents drop in all the time for unscheduled visits, as do law enforcement, educators, and other gov't agencies. So don't swallow everything you see or hear.

Talk about making one roll their eyes?!?! :flame:

[Anonymous]

http://caica.org/zehnder-report/contents.htm

[BuzzKill]

I'd like to know which WWASPS program allows parents to visit a child on the first three levels? Or even talk to them on the phone? Which ones exactly? It doesn't happen. It doesn't matter how long the kid remains on those first levels either. I do know. I recall well the BBS parents, from every school, talking about how if they (the kid) wanted to talk to mom and dad, and get a visit, they'd start working their program - and some of these kids had been level one or two for a year or more.

When has Majestic Ranch, specifically, ever let parents visit a child at will; or talk to them on the phone at will?

When has CPS ever arrived unannounced and interviewed the children privately - assuring the child knows it is confidential; and if they are being emotionally or physically abused, they will be removed from the program? When has this ever occurred?

Because to make an appointment for a welfare check is simply giving warning to hide the troubled ones; and clean up the compound. Send some of the kids off into the woods - so CPS can't see how overcrowded the compound is.

And also, to interview a few children with staff standing by, is worse than useless. The consequences of being negative are such, that few will risk speaking out, knowing they will be left there to suffer the consequences.

In My Opinion, CPS knows all this, and thats why they do it this way; so they won't have to actually do any work. If they did their jobs, they'd have to find a safe place for the kids, and it would take a lot of man hours and money - and these states do not have the men and money to do the job. So, they turn away, and pretend to have done inspections and interviews - and they can truthfully say we went, and we looked, and the kids said it was great!

So, am I wrong? Tell us, when has any state agency ever arrived unannounced, and conducted private interviews with the children? At Majestic Ranch; or at any WWASP Program in the U S of A?

It has happened a few times in your off shore programs, and it results in the closing down of the program when it does. But when has such a inspection and private interviews ever takin place here in the states?

And what child was ever allowed to call their parent or visit with them while still on Level One, Two or Three? Even if they are in the program for a year or more at level two - which WWASPS program allows the parent and child any kind of one on one, uncensored, communication?

Even the phone calls, when finely allowed, are censored. I've never, not one time, heard from a program teen or parent that they *ever* had a un-moderated phone call. How freely may a child speak in such circumstances?

Which WWASPS program operates any differently?

And By the By - I hear a rumor your Program dudes have severely limited parent access to your BBS. I hear there is no longer a general board. Parents may only interact with parents from their own childs school. Now, why might that be? (rolling eyes)

[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-06-01 18:59 ]

[Anonymous]

Amen, Buzz.  I won't hold my breath for them to answer your questions though.

[Oz girl]

hi. What is bbs? is it the internal email system? I am curious to know if there is some kind of charity set up to genuinely help families (particularly the kids) who have been harmed by these places. Something about the stories I have read on these sites has really hit a nerve. I am waiting for my copy of help @ any cost to arrive but has there been any long term studies on what happens to the kids when they get out? This is an issue that people outside of the us know NOTHING about.That book is not even available in international bookshopsit needs to be ordered through Amazon. I am aware that the US is one of the few countries to not sign the un declaration on the rights of the child but a widespread education campaign is needed to uncover this. Would anyone be interested in speaking with Amnesty Internatioanl and broadening the campaign against these places? I only stumbled across all of this info by mistake afterall.

[BuzzKill]

The BBS is a forum; something like this one. It is only for Program Parents and is very closely moderated. Anyone who posts comments that raise disturbing questions about the program are soon blocked from access. It is all about "support" for the Program parents. Support being defined as keeping them validated in their decision to send their child into the program; and building firmly in their minds the idea that the child Must graduate.

When I was on it, there was a general board, that any program parent had access to. And then each "school" had its own forum, dealing strictly with that "school's" families.

On occasion, parents would notice that people from all the schools were hearing very similar complaints from their kids about what goes on. Keep in mind, the parents are told from the very first phone call that the child will lie and manipulate - and the outlandish stories they write home can not be believed. This does make since, when your talking about a population of kids who have been abusing drugs, as they tend to have a history of just that kind of thing. Some mental illness can also having lying and constant manipulation as a behavioral symptom. So, people accept that as a reasonable explanation when the letters begin to arrive.

But when you have parents from the various schools all saying Little Johnny, or Patty Jo, wrote and said they are always hungry; or the school is bogus; or the place is seriously overcrowded; that kids are hurt physically, and mentally - you begin to wonder why and how all these kids come up with the same stories - over and over.

The explanation? They conspire. They sit and night and plan together what lies to tell to best frighten and manipulate the parents. This too, can be believed - except when it is coming from schools hundreds or thousands of miles apart!

So, I speculate, that is why they took down the BBS General Board. Something along those lines.

As for Amnesty International and so on - they have certainly been approached about all this. There are some Human Rights organizations that have taken a slight interest. Nothing much as of yet. One of the problems is, it is the parents who put the kids there. It is the Program Parents, who in their great (and brainwashed) numbers, insist the program saved them and their kid. And facing that, its hard to get such groups to understand what is really going on. Frankly, it is hard to believe. Hopefully the international exposure will have an effect, and there will be a rising outcry that can not be ignored.

[Oz girl]

I can certainly see how with older kids who are troubled the "manipulation" story would go down because im sure for a lot of these kids it is a nightmare version of the boy who cried wolf. I know the marketing people for MR seem to be strongly pushing the line to my brother & particularly his wife that a lot of younger  kids exaggerate because they are homesick. So I am beginning to see how they convince parents how this can happen before the kid sets foot in the door of the place. Once thing that struck me about the tranquility bay kids was that the boys particularly all looked so thin and pale. It was reminicent of the pictures of ww2 concentration camp victims. The girls in the pictures usually look quite plump and healthy though. Are they a little kinder to the girls physically? From the sound of the post I have read on the sites you guys have provided they sure arent emotionally.

One thing that staggers me is the fact that they really seem to push honesty & trust with the kids ( I read the newsletters on the MR site)but many of the kids seem to think they are only going for a short time or seem to get sent by escort. It is such a shocking example to set. I know that my niece seemed to think that this is going to be like a summer camp with sports and outdoor activities with a minor emphasis on academics. i note that she loves anything physical and hates schoolwork. I am concerned that in the event she goes, her response will be to get angry at the outrageous lies she has been told and try to rebel, which will obviously keep her trapped there for longer. Obviously this is why i am spending the time & money to do what it takes to keep her out, but in the worse case scenario what would your advice be. Should I give her a more honest picture? It hurts me to think that her last monents with loved ones would be traumatic but by the same token she at least has the chance to go in  and be co operative with a goal of getting out.

[AtomicAnt]

The way the system handles the 'rescue letters' and BBS are indicative of how sophisticated these programs have become over the years. They have had their legal brushes with lawsuits and closed facilities and they have learned from these experiences. They know what they can get away with. They have been at this for a long time. They have an answer for every criticism. It is very cult-like and quite refined.

Still, it amazes me that parents fall for it. The most basic research will expose the most horrible stories; not just disgruntled kids, but parents who have admitted being fooled and news articles from reputable sources describing the closings and horrible treatments.

I cannot imagine why anyone would send a child as young as 10 away from home like that. If you think about it, the way the program dismisses 'just homesickness' is a good indication of their callousness towards kids.

I cannot fathom how this man can allow his new wife to manipulate him into giving up his child.

It tears at my heart to know there are thousands of children trapped in these facilities.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-02 19:09:00, Pls help wrote:

"hi. What is bbs? is it the internal email system? I am curious to know if there is some kind of charity set up to genuinely help families (particularly the kids) who have been harmed by these places. Something about the stories I have read on these sites has really hit a nerve. I am waiting for my copy of help @ any cost to arrive but has there been any long term studies on what happens to the kids when they get out? This is an issue that people outside of the us know NOTHING about.That book is not even available in international bookshopsit needs to be ordered through Amazon. I am aware that the US is one of the few countries to not sign the un declaration on the rights of the child but a widespread education campaign is needed to uncover this. Would anyone be interested in speaking with Amnesty Internatioanl and broadening the campaign against these places? I only stumbled across all of this info by mistake afterall."

This is an issue that people INSIDE of the US know little about---due in part to the misinformation spread on forums like this. What happens is, people buy into the drama, catch on to the cause---much as it seems you're doing---without knowing the facts, or having any genuine experience. They gallop away on their white horses, raise a ruckus, and then find out they were wrong about it. There are so many good schools, and the work they do is so important,  no one takes the crusaders seriously. Long run: the schools that are doing real harm, and hiding out quietly, continue to thrive.

I urge you to go see for yourself, if you're in need of a cause. Your niece does not belong at MR, but you probably know very little about the kids who really need a place to go in order to heal from addiction. These schools provide an essential service that is lacking in most places. Most are doing a spectacular job of saving families. Don't believe me . . . GET OFF YOUR COMPUTER AND GO SEE FOR YOURSELF.

[katfish]

On 2006-05-31 15:54:00, Anonymous wrote:



I am assuming that if you are lobbying to get the place shut down you are in contact with the office of george miller. Obviously these wwasp people have a stanglehold of power in utah. What about the more moderate states? What are they doing to get them shut down.



I have gotten my brother to agree to let my niece come to australia for a holiday over the summer holidays for a few weeks so that @ least buys time & puts her where i can see her. "

A START  has formed a state policy committe to study the issue from state to state which will then give avocates  data to work with.  A youth, parent and staff survey is also due to come out sometime soon, i understand.

http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm

[katfish]

On 2006-06-03 12:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-06-02 19:09:00, Pls help wrote:


"Would anyone be interested in speaking with Amnesty Internatioanl and broadening the campaign against these places? I only stumbled across all of this info by mistake afterall."

i'm sure many kids would, i've been in contact w/ Human Rights Watch.  This was through a professor for a human rights class project who had some HRW contact.  They haven't picked up, but I planned on writing soon.  Usually they require a large numer of youth- not sure why they haven't persued anything though.

We've been working on centralizing the youh pop @ http://www.cafety.org

[Oz girl]

i am not suggesting that every institution that takes boarders or works with Kids in crisis should be shut down. I am saying that given the amount of links & information I have been given which indicate abuse, there is obvously a severe problem with an industry which is not always regualated and that people outside the USA know nothing about this. We do know about other human rights abuses though. Moveover I would love to visit some of these places particularly when they are being considered as a place to put a loved one but A) I live in Australia and B)visits seem to be highly discouraged until the institution decides it is ready for a kid to see its family & even then it is only the parents. The MR website itself made this clear that is why I did nore research to find out why. Surely if a kid is truly troubled & needs to be removed from the family there should be as many attempts to keep the family together as possible. When kids are denied food, family contact and medical treatment until they behave better it is a breach of the un declaration on the rights of the child & it is not unreasonable to suggest that international pressure needs to be placed on the country who allows this. If this is not occuring there should be no issue with strict nationwide regulations to protect kids. Particularly Kids @ risk.
You are right I have jumped on the bandwagon because someone i love could potentially be hurt by what seems to be a major palyer in thhe industry & my capacity to help is limited. Kids need as many adults in their community looking out for them as possible. This does not just mean the nuclear family.

[AtomicAnt]

The USA is one of the very few countries that have NOT signed the UN declaration of Rights of the Child. Why? Because the UN declaration forbids capital punishment for minors and the UN declaration forbids a sentence of life without the possibility of parole for minors. There are States within the United States for allow for both of these sentences.