Anchor Academy for Boys in Havre, Montana.

[Pastor]

On 2005-10-11 14:58:00, Dreamy Surf wrote:

"Pastor,



 I don't think anyone of us is attacking you here, please don't take it that way. If you are comming here claiming truth, so must many of us. The point of the debate, I think, is to show you there is a MUCH larger picture than you have been trained to see. Believe what you will, but harm none. (this includes  teenagers who may be a diffrent example of what you see as healthy growth.)



Be well.



"

Thank you, Dreamy Surf.   I agree but let me also say, as I learn what you are saying and what many of these posts are about, please also learn from me that "there might be a good one out there" that needs protecting as well.  I never would be so wrong as to not acknowledge that the programs or whatever we call them are in great need of closing down, judgement against etc. but don't kill a good one in your stabbing at the bad ones.

[Nihilanthic]

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...but repentance is necessary. That is where tough love comes in. If there is no repentance there can be no changing.

WTF?

You think "tough love" makes them repentant?  :lol:

GOOD ONE! 'repentance' as in the acceptance that youre a human and not an infallable being and wanting to be better and genuinely not wanting to harm others is not something that can be shoved onto someone or forced onto others. But yes, I could conceiveably beat someone into 'repentance' unless he would rather be beaten to death or was a masochist. But saying "Im sorry, please stop hurting me" is a far different thing.

Then again, when you said you don't have a definition of tough love in the first place... how does your definition of "tough love" bring that about? Proselytization? Making them suffer to some undefined degree by some undefined means so they repent to make it stop? Breaking their spirit and killing their identity as a person and replacing it with someone else in their body?

Coersion is not bringing about some change inside someone unless you mean damaging them or brainwashing them into walking the line the programmers have set for them.

But I degress. To go any further I need to know what you feel 'tough love' is and how its supposed to work. Also, Im not arguing from the POV of Anchor Academy, but rather the concepts of tough love, and trying to change children and teenagers in programs via the various methods they use.

I've been out of the forum loop lately due to personal issues, so Im not going to jump into the AA thing... because I dont know about it or whats going on, but the concepts themselves I'm pretty familiar with.

The function of the press is very high. It is almost holy. It ought to
serve as a forum for the people, through which the people may know freely what is going on. To misstate or suppress the news is a breach of trust.
--Mr. Justice Brandeis

[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-11 21:03 ]

[Nihilanthic]

Thank you, Dreamy Surf.   I agree but let me also say, as I learn what you are saying and what many of these posts are about, please also learn from me that "there might be a good one out there" that needs protecting as well.  I never would be so wrong as to not acknowledge that the programs or whatever we call them are in great need of closing down, judgement against etc. but don't kill a good one in your stabbing at the bad ones.  "

I'd disagree. The wellbeing of the children, teenagers, and even the few adults still under the yoke of coersive programs is far more important than the checkbooks of program operators. Id sooner have ever good program go bad (hey, business ain't always fair) than one bad program hurt another child even for a second.

Maybe if you really knew what was going on, it would click more. And no, I dont mean the graphic details of the PHYSICAL ACTS upon them, like what happened to Samantha Monroe or the Child in ISAC's "Statement E"  regarding Tranquility Bay, but I mean the broken spirits, humiliation, the deep, DEEP harm to their souls and their hearts. Having to spend your existance walking a tightrope of ridiculous rules and regulations, at the mercy of the whims of the staff and higher-level 'students' there with you, and in at least some of them periodically having your mind and spirit put through an emotional meatgrinder... colloquially called a Seminar, Propheet, Rap, or Workshop, but in the terminology of Psychology a "Large Group Awareness Training", or LGAT for short.

Furthermore, the way that everything is currently going on... theres no real way to find out. A good program (which Ive yet to see) would... appear to be a good program! A bad one would hide it. I they can choose who you talk to, and when you talk to them, and simply dont have bloody or beaten children walking around in sight and keep the grounds reasonably clean, you wouldnt be able to tell.

A suitably coersed child would lie right through their fake smile to you about how wonderful the program is because they know if anyone found out they told the truth, their suffering would rival childbith or crucifixion. Again, its not about the mechanics of it, the phyiscal acts and coreography, its about what it does to their minds and souls. Cuts heal, infections are fought off, broken bones mind and bruises fade, but they're really nothing compared to the psychological impact of it.

Basically, the crux of it is that its isolated and controlled, and there arent video cameras with microphones in every room at all times. The other thing is many outsiders simply don't get what the feeling of hopelessness is like when youre trapped away from home and all who love you with people you fear and loathe with not a moment of pleasure, happiness, privacy, where even a moment of simply not suffering is as treastured as icewater in hell. You wont EVER find out whats going on in the program from someone whose been picked to leave the program, because nobody who disagrees would be allowed to leave!

Thats the thing. The program is always right, and you are always wrong. Whether they operate under the banner of emotional growth, fighting "druggies", Jesus Christ or Mickey Mouse?, they all operate the same way. Youre broken down until you conform to them and then when youre sent out youre only allowed to do so when they know you wont run or tell whats going on... and a lot of the time you really dont know its anything bad.

Talk to Antigen or Perrigaud about that... Antigen a long time ago and Perrigaud (and her friend Amanda) recently came out of their WWASPS brainwashing at the hands of Cross Creek Manor.

The only way to make sure the programs are okay is with psychologists analyzing it basically constantly and video cameras with microphones in EVERY SINGLE ROOM. Programs with cameras just have the child drug off to a "cameraless room" to do the beatings, and many laypeople would tolerate LGAs as "weird therapy" without knowing the true damage they cause.

Again, Im not trying to insult you, but there is so much more going on here than you know. Theres a lot that you dont know you dont know, and theres also a long history of this stretching back to the Synannon Cult. You've got a lot of research and reading to do before you start to grasp it... and then a lot of people to talk to before you really begin to comprehend it. Maybe the two links I put in what I said could at least give you an idea.

Now, imaigne tens of thousands at any given time for DECADES. Pretty hard to wrap your mind around, isnt it? Now imagine how THEY feel!

And, just so you have a feel about what I am... I stumbled on this whole mess around April 2004, and Ive never been in any program - but thats the thing. Im apparently one of VERY FEW people who understand and care about this who isnt a victim, parent, or one of the perps themselves.

The function of the press is very high. It is almost holy. It ought to
serve as a forum for the people, through which the people may know freely what is going on. To misstate or suppress the news is a breach of trust.
--Mr. Justice Brandeis

[Anonymous]

I'll probably be the odd-ball out here, but I don't think Jesus practiced 'tough love' in any sense of the word. And definitely not after he obtained 'christ consciousness'.

I consider his behavior in the temple (which I wouldn't classify as tough love, btw) to have been an indignant reaction to what he perceived as a violation of his values. An outright disrespect of other humans.

After obtaining CC he taught acceptance and forgiveness. He didn't call his grassroots movement christianity. There were NO churches and he never intended there to be churches.

He apparently went through some soul searching, grieved the reality before him, and my guess is that he surrenedered to the ultimate disappointment- that his fellow humans were beyond reach. Incapable of entertaining anything different. He knew the inevitable- they would crucify him for challenging their fear based beliefs.  He traveled around and taught by example and methaphor. He hung out with the 'lowest of the low', in nature.

He apparently could've administered some 'tought love' to those who crucified him, or just poofed into another realm of existence... but chose to use his death as another teaching.

Unfortunately, Humans still haven't gotten the message. It's too fucking simple for their distressed minds to comprehend. And the money changers are still feverishly at work, raping and pillaging those who actually work for a living.

And the 'christians' still support 'tough love'. I don't recall one story in which the christian's lord advocated 'beating the devil' out of anyone- physically or psychologically. That's a misguided human creation. And the more sadistic will try like hell to justify it with their religion.

As for Moses. Anyone know if he took Peyote up with him? That's a pretty wild tale. Those who rule by religion are not much different than politicians. They've always known that to gain any compliance from the masses that the word had to come from some external, disembodied 'authority'.

What most practice as 'christianity' is not the true teaching of jesus, it's the bastarized version provided by the romans when they couldn't put down his movement. The whole virgin birth and jesus being the son of god, blah, blah, blah.

If you look at his life and all its challenges, it's pretty clear to see that he was as human as the rest of us and took the challenge to rise above the dominant paradigm.

Further, they conveniently removed all the important information from the 'holy text' that might teach other humans how he obtained CC. It appears that they didn't tamper with his direct quotes. In them, some truths might be found.

Ever since I was a child, this was my favorite:
"All these things I do, You can do AND MORE".

Now, why would he say such a thing if it weren't true? Ask the romans. What's stopping you?

Protect the children. Advocate for life sustaining social policies. Stop tithing to a religious organization and put that money directly in the hands of a family in need, without strings. You might be surprised how good it does your heart. And you might get the first inklings of CC. It ain't got a thing to do with 'tough love'.

[Anonymous]

Pastor,

 Your kind, kinda scare me. I hope this doesn't end with Kool-aid or anything  :eek:

 Wow, how can we free these children? All I can say is Wow. I've said my thoughts earlier, but now seeing a bigger picture of Anchor and places like it, just Wow. What can I do to help free these children. I am now also a witness, and have some responsibility.

[Anonymous]

"A suitably coersed child would lie right through their fake smile to you about how wonderful the program is because they know if anyone found out they told the truth, their suffering would rival childbith or crucifixion."
 

Assinine statement. Unfounded, untrue, ridiculous, and over the top.
 :silly:

[Nihilanthic]

1. good job fucking up the quote tags AGAIN. We dont have enough open tags and line breaks, seriously. I love scrolling, yes, I really do.

*ANYWAY* :wave:

May your days be joyfully challenging and your words artfully true
-- Ginger Warbis SMA, `00

[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-12 14:30 ][ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-12 14:31 ]

[Anonymous]

wtf, I cant read shit on this page.  :silly:

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-10-12 14:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"wtf, I cant read shit on this page.  :silly: "

No shit! But hey, at least I can CLOSE MY QUOTE TAGS, even if Im some drama-lover (or whatever dr phil is gonna try on me next, seeing as saying I was a mama's boy failed miserably in another thread)  :rofl:

Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright

[Nihilanthic]

Yay, quote tags fixed, now I can actually read all of what he had to say.

So yeah, NOW I can actually go after your posts!  :roll:

1. Its ASININE, and two, Uh... what part of that is not understandeable? If youre in a bad program and try to tell or run, and get caught and drug back, theyre going to beat the shit out of you.

2. Uh, you mean all programs are good? In a bad program thats sure as fuck how I was told it was by people who were there... and you haven't been there yourself, either.

3. Have YOU been to all of them? The fact that its impossible to know except for what survivors say is my WHOLE POINT!

4. Yes, it is good that Im not directly impacted by it yet still care, because people who were in the programs and say its bad are often accused of being insane or manipulated BY IT and thus because I was not Im more credible to some people.

And yes, are you omniscient? Do YOU Know all about whats going on in all programs? NO!

All religions bear traces of the fact that they arose during the intellectual immaturity of the human race - before it had learned the obligations to speak the truth. Not one of them makes it the duty of its God to be truthful and understandable in his communications.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher

[Anonymous]

do you?  do you know they are ALL bad?  have you visited all of them or spoken to every student?  how about dropping the generalities and say some programs are bad.  that is for sure.  some may be good, but most people on this forum have had bad experiences with them.  just as no one can say all programs are good and all students benefit from them, you should not say that all are bad and no student has ever benefitted from them.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-10-12 16:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"do you?  do you know they are ALL bad?  have you visited all of them or spoken to every student?  how about dropping the generalities and say some programs are bad.  that is for sure.  some may be good, but most people on this forum have had bad experiences with them.  just as no one can say all programs are good and all students benefit from them, you should not say that all are bad and no student has ever benefitted from them."

this has to be one of the dumbest arguments ive read on this site. really.

'but not all are bad' lol  :roll:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-10-09 07:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Pastor, it appears your Baptist Church wants to to support this so-called school, and wants to accept that nothing is wrong there, and wants to accept that firing a child molester just clears up everything. You already have on blinders. That is evident. You are not searching for any TRUTH, you are merely justifying why that so-called school in in existence and why your  church should continue to support it."

Word.

[Pastor]

WORD?  What does that mean?[ This Message was edited by: Pastor on 2005-10-12 17:36 ]

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry, I meant-- werd.