Anchor Academy for Boys in Havre, Montana.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-10-11 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.



Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.



:flame:

"

Was it also implied that Early christianity was NOT "True Christianity" I'd like to know when they became 2 seperate entities? and Why, What is "True Christianity" covering up or misleading people into an un-reality for. This is like saying as a baby I was a completely diffrent entity than after I grew old.
The end "True Christianity" is being implied as a justification of "The means" Another idea imposed by programs who use abuse, such as the early christians did to become whatever it is they call themselves today.

[Anonymous]

Pastor said "...........Oh, but I think he did. Besides, you don't know what so called tough love is? There are so many definitons running wild out there that I would want to know what you call so called "TOUGH LOVE."

Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple. Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice. Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done < end of quote >


The way I understand it is: Jesus loved all, he didn't practice "tough love" He didnt punish anyone or look down on anyone. He loved all. Who was the lady he is suspected (and some have said its proven) of being married or having a relationship with, Mary Magdeliy (sp) Wasn't she suspected of being a prostitute? Maybe he was with her beating her into submission or with holding food from her until she repented. I doubt that! More like showing her thru love there was another way, if infact she had been prostituting.

Wasn't it Jesus who loved unconditionaly and said "do not worship me, worship my father" I was taught in early Sunday school.. That Jesus was trying to teach the people they had NO right to judge good or bad, so how could he have inacted punishment? Wait maybe that was  in the PRE King James version? Well heck  How would we know for sure, it changes to meet the current "needs" of it's Goverment.

i may be rambling, but I hate when one person says they know for absolute something was a certian way because they read in it which ever version of the book they were issued. And then told it was the ABSOLUTE truth and to SPREAD the word. Well imo the WORD has been spread much like a virus. And like virus it changes to meet the needs of it's current survival.

[Dreamy Surf]

Pastor,

 I don't think anyone of us is attacking you here, please don't take it that way. If you are comming here claiming truth, so must many of us. The point of the debate, I think, is to show you there is a MUCH larger picture than you have been trained to see. Believe what you will, but harm none. (this includes  teenagers who may be a diffrent example of what you see as healthy growth.)

Be well.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-10-11 14:27:00, Pastor wrote:

"

On 2005-10-11 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.
Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.
:flame:
"

Oh, but I think he did.  Besides, you don't know what so called tough love is?   There are so many definitons running wild out there that I would want to know what you call so called "TOUGH LOVE."

Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple.  Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice.  Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done.  

And, be careful how you lump me with those who hurt children.  I would never allow nor would I condone children being abused or hurt.  You are quick to judge and quick to stack those who do wrong with someone who is seeking the truth.  Your quickness is as wrong as their's.  Just don't start throwing rocks till you know there is someone who is guilty.  There are plenty who are guilty and I would agree to that, But there are some who are not, and you don't seem to recognize that fact. "

Driving money-chargers out of a temple (fighting corruption) has what to do with "tough love" upon children, Pastor?

And BTW, "Tough Love" as we know it and how its PRACTICED is basically treating children and teenagers as austere and acetic as possible, being extremely authoritarian and doling out lots of punishments for not following excessive rules and 'structure'.

Oh, and 24/7 loss of privacy and freedom, and minimalizing any amount of fun or enjoyment in their lives. Calling it "hard" as if making something difficult, unenjoyable, or painful is somehow more than just difficult/unenjoyable/painful and is actually "good".

Now, dont setup a strawman and say Im not for holding people/children/teenagers accountable, because Im not against that. I just dont have any belief or reasoned support for being 'hard' on people for its own sake and treating children and teenagers like felons.

But anyway, back to Jesus, he loved everyone, forgave all sinners, and said "do not worship me, worship my father". I personally find it so sad that so many Christians are so far from his teachings all the time. Im sure you can share that feeling. However, I am not going to accept that fighitng corruption somehow equates to "tough love" upon teenagers thats nothing more than behavior modification and feel-good authoritarianism.

Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By  any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.
http://www.masscann.org/quotes.htm' target='_new'>Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young,  DOJ/DEA

[Anonymous]

Pastor wrote >>> Un disciplined children or undisciplined adults are all the same...without structure they become a rule and law unto themslves and hurt or cripple society.

If it weren't for people Questioning and refusing to follow anothers rule of them, America and many other cultures would NOT exist. Most religions would NOT exist. America was formed by people refusing to live by someone elses terms. Religous and Goverment rebels came. So are you not  grateful for these who fought for freedom then? Are you not grateful for those Diffrent-thinking/reacting adults? are you not grateful they were not forced into some thought reform prison and brainwashed their ideas were Wrong? They are the type of peoples being locked away in Behavior/thought reform programs. People who ~buck the system. Programs are locking away people who's ideas do not match their own. Who is to judge, I won't take that upon myself, will you?




Pastor wrote >> What would you have these parents do who have rebellious boys or girls. Do you want to follow the Bible principle of the Old Testament and take them out and stone them? Of course not.


Is that not what programs do? I will have to assume you have never been a ~client yourself.

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-28 10:34:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

I see a lot of people ask general questions about these programs and they normally get a response like "use the search feature," etc.

Unfortunately, the folks looking for information here often know less about 'puters and the net than they know about the program about which they are inquiring...

"Hmmmm..." says the fly on the wall....

for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.    
--Alexander Hamilton

[Antigen]

Would it be helpful to have the search feature return a prefabricated link like this?

http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php?term=Anchor Academy &addterms=phrase&forum=all&sortby=p.post_time+desc&searchboth=both&submit=Search'>Anchor Academy

Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

[Antigen]

Hey Pastor, why not just hand the boy a phone and let him call his sister? She's obviously worried about him. If everything's alright, wouldn't it be simple just to let him tell her so and be done with it?

Penalties against possession of a drug should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself
--Jimmy Carter

[OverLordd]

Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple. Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice. Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done.

Pastor driving the money changers was fighting coruption, drinking the ground up gold was punishing those that should stand for God, a parallell would the the councliers. The children would be comparable to the masses, the crowds of people following that know no better. Also jesus showed mercy, great mercy. The women who was going to be stoned, the tax collecter up in the tree whos name I could not spell if I had spell check. Jesus was very mercyful, he only came down hard on hypocrites.

[Pastor]

On 2005-10-11 17:29:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"

On 2005-10-11 14:27:00, Pastor wrote:


"

On 2005-10-11 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.

Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.

:flame:

"

Oh, but I think he did.  Besides, you don't know what so called tough love is?   There are so many definitons running wild out there that I would want to know what you call so called "TOUGH LOVE."



Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple.  Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice.  Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done.  



And, be careful how you lump me with those who hurt children.  I would never allow nor would I condone children being abused or hurt.  You are quick to judge and quick to stack those who do wrong with someone who is seeking the truth.  Your quickness is as wrong as their's.  Just don't start throwing rocks till you know there is someone who is guilty.  There are plenty who are guilty and I would agree to that, But there are some who are not, and you don't seem to recognize that fact. "

Driving money-chargers out of a temple (fighting corruption) has what to do with "tough love" upon children, Pastor?



And BTW, "Tough Love" as we know it and how its PRACTICED is basically treating children and teenagers as austere and acetic as possible, being extremely authoritarian and doling out lots of punishments for not following excessive rules and 'structure'.



Oh, and 24/7 loss of privacy and freedom, and minimalizing any amount of fun or enjoyment in their lives. Calling it "hard" as if making something difficult, unenjoyable, or painful is somehow more than just difficult/unenjoyable/painful and is actually "good".



Now, dont setup a strawman and say Im not for holding people/children/teenagers accountable, because Im not against that. I just dont have any belief or reasoned support for being 'hard' on people for its own sake and treating children and teenagers like felons.



But anyway, back to Jesus, he loved everyone, forgave all sinners, and said "do not worship me, worship my father". I personally find it so sad that so many Christians are so far from his teachings all the time. Im sure you can share that feeling. However, I am not going to accept that fighitng corruption somehow equates to "tough love" upon teenagers thats nothing more than behavior modification and feel-good authoritarianism.

I want to anwer you but your have put so many things together this is going to take a while to sort out.

Tough Love and Jesus:  "The statement was that Jesus didn't practice Tough love" Not that he practiced it on Children.  Keep the context.  Jesus did practice tough love with the adults that he dealt with.  The woman of Samaria was asked, where is your husband, she had to reply she didn't have one and he further...well you know what he said, I don't have to teach you.

Thank you for your definition of Tough Love. That is your definition and may or may not be accepted by others or practiced by others as Tough Love.  I don't presume to have a definition for it.  I know it means doing what you have to do to make someone realize that they can't continue the way they are going.  Even in that statment, I realize that what you have to do must have restrictions and those restrictions have to have boundries.  I accept that.  What boundries we or someone else sets is based on many factors.  Obviously those factors are vital and important.  I quote:  "...being extremely authoritarian and doling out lots of punishments for not following excessive rules and 'structure'."  What is lots of punishment and what is excessive rules and structure?  See, those are general terms that can be taken by just about anyone and either accepted or rejected.  Your definition of punishment and excessive rules might be very simplistic or very detailed.  I don't know.  I see a lot of people today who don't like any rules and reading signiture at the bottom of your post that "Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care."  I am sure that many would agree with you and you open a whole new can of questions.  According to your statement you think that Marijuana is acceptable.  I don't, so we disagree.  We probably disagree on what is excessive rules too, and also what is punishment and structure.  

I quote you:  "Oh, and 24/7 loss of privacy and freedom, and minimalizing any amount of fun or enjoyment in their lives. Calling it "hard" as if making something difficult, unenjoyable, or painful is somehow more than just difficult/unenjoyable/painful and is actually "good"."   I don't know where you are coming from on this.  I am dealing only with Anchor Academy.  I don't justify anyone else, any group, organization or person.  If they have done wrong, then they are wrong and I feel you are bringing into this disucssion about Anchor Academy things that you don't have knowledge of or judgement that you should leave for some other organization.  Please don't catagorize or get the implication that I would agree to any type of abuse or wrong doing.  I will leave this at that.  If you have knowldge regarding Anchor Academy in these areas, I would tell you outright, I don't agree and know from "first hand knowledge" that you are wrong.   Again, I speak only as it relates to Anchor Academy.

Again...I quote you:  "Now, dont setup a strawman and say Im not for holding people/children/teenagers accountable, because Im not against that. I just dont have any belief or reasoned support for being 'hard' on people for its own sake and treating children and teenagers like felons."  

No Straw man...No one has said they agreed with treating children or teens like felons.  I think that you should realize that the present laws in this land do treat teens and children like felons but some of them are.  And mostly it is becasue they have had no structure in their life and live a life like they have no accountablity.  Once they learn accountability and love, the Love of Christ, then we see wonderful change.

And finally:  "But anyway, back to Jesus, he loved everyone, forgave all sinners, and said "do not worship me, worship my father". I personally find it so sad that so many Christians are so far from his teachings all the time. Im sure you can share that feeling. However, I am not going to accept that fighitng corruption somehow equates to "tough love" upon teenagers thats nothing more than behavior modification and feel-good authoritarianism."

Jesus did love sinnners.  He died for us.  That is greater love than any man could show.  Be he taught that if a man repent forgive him.  No man can get the forgiveness of God if he doesn't repent.  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...but repentance is necessary.  That is where tough love comes in.  If there is no repentance there can be no changing.  I am not going to get into a theological discission with you but we have a socitety and a bunch of people out there who feel that you can just let wrong doing go and it will take care of itself.  Not so.  

Somewhere in these discussions we need to be careful who our enemies are.  I am not your enemy nor do I want to be.  I want right as well as you but I don't like to lump everything and everyone into a boiling pot.

[Pastor]

On 2005-10-11 18:50:00, Antigen wrote:

"Hey Pastor, why not just hand the boy a phone and let him call his sister? She's obviously worried about him. If everything's alright, wouldn't it be simple just to let him tell her so and be done with it?

Penalties against possession of a drug should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself
--Jimmy Carter

"

Good idea, and more than that, why doesn't she go see him.  I have asked the same question.  Ask the boys parents.  I have talked to the Anchor people and they are more than willing for her to visit him, talk with him or whatever, but the parents are the ones to deal with.  They have told them, Anchor, no, she is not allowed.  Some problem there or something.

[Pastor]

On 2005-10-11 14:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-10-11 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.





Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.





:flame:


"

Was it also implied that Early christianity was NOT "True Christianity" I'd like to know when they became 2 seperate entities? and Why, What is "True Christianity" covering up or misleading people into an un-reality for. This is like saying as a baby I was a completely diffrent entity than after I grew old.

The end "True Christianity" is being implied as a justification of "The means" Another idea imposed by programs who use abuse, such as the early christians did to become whatever it is they call themselves today."

No, listen to what I am saying.  To do wrong in the name of Christianity is not "true Christianity."  We live in a day when everything under the sun is label as "Chrisitianity and religious."  When in fact it is not true or real or even Christian.  The Catholic Church and their priests that molest boys is not true Christianity.  That is not God like or Christ like.  But, it is labeled such.  That is only a very simple illustration.  Any program that is labeled as Christian and doesn't practice Christ like is not "true" Christianity.   I deal every day with people who don't want anything to do with God or the church because of a problem in the past with someone they know or someone who hurt them.  Becasue they were hurt they reject God.  God didn't hurt them, False Christianity did. That is what I am saying.  Hope this helps.

[Pastor]

On 2005-10-11 14:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Pastor said "...........Oh, but I think he did. Besides, you don't know what so called tough love is? There are so many definitons running wild out there that I would want to know what you call so called "TOUGH LOVE."



Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple. Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice. Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done < end of quote >






The way I understand it is: Jesus loved all, he didn't practice "tough love" He didnt punish anyone or look down on anyone. He loved all. Who was the lady he is suspected (and some have said its proven) of being married or having a relationship with, Mary Magdeliy (sp) Wasn't she suspected of being a prostitute? Maybe he was with her beating her into submission or with holding food from her until she repented. I doubt that! More like showing her thru love there was another way, if infact she had been prostituting.



Wasn't it Jesus who loved unconditionaly and said "do not worship me, worship my father" I was taught in early Sunday school.. That Jesus was trying to teach the people they had NO right to judge good or bad, so how could he have inacted punishment? Wait maybe that was  in the PRE King James version? Well heck  How would we know for sure, it changes to meet the current "needs" of it's Goverment.



i may be rambling, but I hate when one person says they know for absolute something was a certian way because they read in it which ever version of the book they were issued. And then told it was the ABSOLUTE truth and to SPREAD the word. Well imo the WORD has been spread much like a virus. And like virus it changes to meet the needs of it's current survival.



"

Well, I seem to have struck a cord here someplace.  You have lots of different things in this post.  I see a lot of sarcasm first and I really don't want to deal with that.  This is not a forum on King James and versions as you have brought them into your post.  I further will not answer a post that brings Jesus into being married to Mary Magdalene.  She was a woman that was possessed with devils and Jesus had cast them out.  Mark 16:9 and Luke 8:2.  I know nothing of the woman you talk about being a prostitute other than the woman of Samaria in John 4.  This has nothing to do with what is being discussed.  Jesus was kind to the woman of Samaria, asked her for a drink and discussed the Lord with her. But when he dealt with her sin, he never flinched and questioned her about her (im) moral life.  Regarding the woman caught in adultery, he forgave her but told her to go and sin no more.  He didn't tell her to go on doing what she was.  So, try any translation and you will find I told it the way it was.

[Pastor]

On 2005-10-11 13:06:00, OverLordd wrote:

"I love that idea, I really do. The world needs a "looking into." thats something that im going to remember for a long time. Thank you very much that.

What would you have these parents do who have rebellious boys or girls. Do you want to follow the Bible principle of the Old Testament and take them out and stone them? Of course not. We try and yes, we fail. I have heard of programs that are failures and do abuse children/youth.

 



What I really want them to do pastor is to love them. You know as well as I do that love is very powerful and it can do great things. If the parents were good parents then things like this would never happen and you know what I mean. If the parents loved their children then the children would not have to be forced to work for their repemption in the eyes of the parents."

You are right, parents need to love their children.  I have read a lot of the posts about the Roloff homes and unquesionably there were some wrongs committed. But there were some who reported nothing but love and help and compassion by some of the people he had working with him.  Unfortunatly, something got out of hand and lots of hurt resulted.

[Anonymous]

I suppose you can see why I was asked to leave a "christian" church. I ask alot of tough questions that some are afraid to answer. I rebel. I'm glad of that in myself. It is one of my better qualities.

 But I must ask myself why you  are so sure the truth you have been taught, is in fact The truth.

 After re-reading the Whole thread again. I wanted to jump on a plane and go demand to see these children and this facility.  I wish there was a panel of people who can go/will check out this place. It really sounds like a scarey place, where secret behavior/thought reform take place. I am concerned for these children. I am greatly concerned about the inability for these Youth to communicate with any one they choose, in Private.

 Many Cult leaders think they were/are doing good things, teaching their  followers his/her  understanding of God and how to best serve God. Often it is called The True way

PS-all the anons are not the same here, some of Pastor's responses have made me think he doesn't realize this.