Arizona Boys Ranch

[Jarhead6]

[ This Message was edited by: Jarhead6 on 2006-01-25 10:54 ]

[Anonymous]

Daughter ... not that this would interest you ... but you should know that not providing children with proper medical care and attention, food and water can be deadly.

Where is your compassion for the suffering this poor boy endured as a result of not being properly cared for while in the custody of ABR?

Abuse is abuse.  Doesn't matter if the kid is adjudicated or the class president.  

 :flame:

[OverLordd]

You seem to think all the kids were criminals. You seem to think just because some judge said this place or prison for your actions that they are criminals. I wonder how many of them had a trial by jury. I wonder how many of them were railroaded. Look I'm not defending them, and I'm not saying anything they did was ok. What I am saying is that I do not believe that the large majority were given a fair trial, which tends to be the case for minors in this country.

You claim these facilities brain-wash people (you even claim they have brain-washed me!!!)

Yeah, we do say that, but I'm starting to think not so much for this facility, just maybe physically abusive. The people's tax dollars won?t pay for BM?ing a group of children I wouldn?t think.

Overlord, you have some strange ideas for consequences. Hopefully, you never consider running for President; our nation will be overrun with medicated criminals creating more problems for the INNOCENT!! They'd be free to harm abuse and prey on more innocent rather than serving time for their actions in an instructional facility.

You don't seem to understand. I don?t like criminals, they are bad, simple as that, but what I don?t like is a kid being called a criminal. I wonder how many of the kids were just sent there for property damage or drug offenses. And I continue to ask how many of them had a fair by jury trial. If they are convicted, so be it, but don?t up and send them to get yelled at by some dis-honored military group. Again I say, I want a trial, and I support the current prisons, because they are run nothing like these abuse centers. Oh and daughter, thank you for giving me the power to pick your login name for you. Also, I will run for president, and when I get it, all government funding will be removed from hell holes like this.

So we should have counseled and medicated Sadam Hussein, then too, right??

You seem to think that I don't support consequences for ones actions. That?s far from the truth, but being PT'ed to death is not a consequence, its murder. And personally I think Saddam should of been shot in his hole, thank God they didn?t hmm, or justice would not be served and innocent people would be denied their justice.

He had been disrespectful all day to my father and other staff members

I would be to if I had a bunch of dis-honored punks leading me around all day.

After being controlled,

You mean physically restrained by people 3 times his size right?

He had been placed on suicide watch earlier and had his shoelaces removed for his security because whether you agree so or not, these guys did care about these boys

Wait... that makes no since... they care so they take his shoe laces... they don?t stop him and talk to him about how life is worth living and yeah it sucks but he will get out of here eventually... they just take his shoe laces? That is foolish.

So you're military too, great. My father and the staff members at ABR didn't treat these teens like animals.

Yes, yes they did, when a person is running for his life like an animal, and they are in prison without a trial and no extreme circumstances, and denied their human rights. That is living like a animal.

You have to earn respect though; you give it in order to receive some in return.

Along the same lines what did your father do to deserve respect? Seemingly nothing at all, so why should the kids respect him?

I defend ABR while the rest of you point your fingers at it, solely blaming them.

You don't seem to get it, we are not solely blaming ABR, we are blaming the mentality of people that kids need to be fixed, look around the forum, you will see the blame spread around plenty.

I'd like to know what actions make me so disrespectful

At the top of the list is your disrespect for other American citizens and your disrespect for their human rights.

God allowed his death to happen for a reason.

Wow... you just lost the last vestiges of any respect I had for you as a human being, you are a animal, you are nothing but a hateful angry animal after everyone to defend your failure of a father. God does not let people die!!! God does not murder people! God is love, God is attention, and God is care. God would never do such a thing to children. You are a heretic, and if I hear you say anything like that ever again I will make it my goal to rip your argument apart whenever I see you post.

[Anonymous]

Daughter writes:

"While being transported, he complained to my father that he had to use the restroom."

----------------------------------------------

Well, there ya go.  A basic need such as going to the bathroom is viewed by the toughlove idiots as a "complaint".

Sheesh. I wish I could say I'm shocked by the ignorance, but truthfully, I am not.  Teen Helpers (whether they work in state-run facilities or privately owned and operated programs) are infamous for their stupidity.

[OverLordd]

Dang OL you?re getting soft. I lost respect for Daughter on page 1 of this thread.

She is new; I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. But apparently that did not work.

The options to the death of a child who should not have been allowed to escape are pretty easy. A person with any sense could figure it out.

After this quote you gave a list of things. And I would like to make a quick statement, I cant really describe it, and I cant really explain it, but that list bothered me greatly, and the actions you would have taken bother me as well.

[Nihilanthic]

:eek: this whole thread has me speechless.

"Daughter" just has me beyond words, and Jarhead coming out with a laundry list of qualities that the military is supposedly instilling in people is really.... uh, not relevant?

Its hardly more than just painting a pretty picture of the qualities of someone whose been indoctrinated  into following orders and acting polite to his superiors and being able to fight to the death without freaking out and managing to still be able to function while in a psychologically regressed state - such as during heavy combat. Keeping your shirt tucked in, your collar starched and your posture straight isnt really on their minds in Iraq right now, now is it?

Hey, what I said is cold and offensive, but its what it is! Boot camp (for adults, in the military) is to make them tough, obedient, unafraid and willing to kill and not afraid to die.

Something centered around intense physical conditioning and being put into a regressed mental state from stressors aside from the physical ones (humiliation, sleep, fear, etc) is arguably worthwhile for consenting adults who actaully realize theyre going to get put in some banana republic, sandy nation with oil reserves, afghanistan for combat or the next place to get hit by a hurricane to rebuild and mantain order... and face that crap in their line of work (mostly in combat).

But what the hell does that have to do with helping a child? Beating children into clay, reshaping them, and baking them isnt therapeutic and saying 'god let him die for a reason' to excuse sadism is what I call BULLSHIT. K?

Now before someone fires back with a strawmen like I should take rapists to disney land or WHATEVER, you do realize that you should first do no harm, right? right? NOTHING is better than doing something which kills a child or is just a waste of time to make everyone appear busy, yanno? All that money could have been better spent and the people running that 'ranch' could go get real jobs!

Babylon in all its desolation is a sight not so awful as that of the human mind in ruins.
-- Scrope Davies: Letter to Thomas Raikes, May 25, 1835.

[OverLordd]

A list of options vs. death OL?

Being treated like a package and suffled around, and locked up without any freedom with no trial vs. death... I pick death.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-21 19:44:00, OverLordd wrote:

"=Being treated like a package and suffled around, and locked up without any freedom with no trial vs. death... I pick death."

Some have.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-21 08:41:00, OverLordd wrote:

"You seem to think all the kids were criminals. You seem to think just because some judge said this place or prison for your actions that they are criminals. I wonder how many of them had a trial by jury. I wonder how many of them were railroaded. Look I'm not defending them, and I'm not saying anything they did was ok. What I am saying is that I do not believe that the large majority were given a fair trial, which tends to be the case for minors in this country.

You claim these facilities brain-wash people (you even claim they have brain-washed me!!!)

Yeah, we do say that, but I'm starting to think not so much for this facility, just maybe physically abusive. The people's tax dollars won?t pay for BM?ing a group of children I wouldn?t think.

Overlord, you have some strange ideas for consequences. Hopefully, you never consider running for President; our nation will be overrun with medicated criminals creating more problems for the INNOCENT!! They'd be free to harm abuse and prey on more innocent rather than serving time for their actions in an instructional facility.

You don't seem to understand. I don?t like criminals, they are bad, simple as that, but what I don?t like is a kid being called a criminal. I wonder how many of the kids were just sent there for property damage or drug offenses. And I continue to ask how many of them had a fair by jury trial. If they are convicted, so be it, but don?t up and send them to get yelled at by some dis-honored military group. Again I say, I want a trial, and I support the current prisons, because they are run nothing like these abuse centers. Oh and daughter, thank you for giving me the power to pick your login name for you. Also, I will run for president, and when I get it, all government funding will be removed from hell holes like this.

So we should have counseled and medicated Sadam Hussein, then too, right??

You seem to think that I don't support consequences for ones actions. That?s far from the truth, but being PT'ed to death is not a consequence, its murder. And personally I think Saddam should of been shot in his hole, thank God they didn?t hmm, or justice would not be served and innocent people would be denied their justice.

He had been disrespectful all day to my father and other staff members

I would be to if I had a bunch of dis-honored punks leading me around all day.

After being controlled,

You mean physically restrained by people 3 times his size right?

He had been placed on suicide watch earlier and had his shoelaces removed for his security because whether you agree so or not, these guys did care about these boys

Wait... that makes no since... they care so they take his shoe laces... they don?t stop him and talk to him about how life is worth living and yeah it sucks but he will get out of here eventually... they just take his shoe laces? That is foolish.

So you're military too, great. My father and the staff members at ABR didn't treat these teens like animals.

Yes, yes they did, when a person is running for his life like an animal, and they are in prison without a trial and no extreme circumstances, and denied their human rights. That is living like a animal.

You have to earn respect though; you give it in order to receive some in return.

Along the same lines what did your father do to deserve respect? Seemingly nothing at all, so why should the kids respect him?

I defend ABR while the rest of you point your fingers at it, solely blaming them.

You don't seem to get it, we are not solely blaming ABR, we are blaming the mentality of people that kids need to be fixed, look around the forum, you will see the blame spread around plenty.

I'd like to know what actions make me so disrespectful

At the top of the list is your disrespect for other American citizens and your disrespect for their human rights.

God allowed his death to happen for a reason.

Wow... you just lost the last vestiges of any respect I had for you as a human being, you are a animal, you are nothing but a hateful angry animal after everyone to defend your failure of a father. God does not let people die!!! God does not murder people! God is love, God is attention, and God is care. God would never do such a thing to children. You are a heretic, and if I hear you say anything like that ever again I will make it my goal to rip your argument apart whenever I see you post.

"

Actually, God allows every single thing to happen in this world according to His plan. Ya know its like the saying, He's got the whole world in His hands...and....Not one sparrow falls from the sky that God doesn't know about.

[DAUGHTER]

You need to realize, OverLordd that a crime is a crime. In God's eyes every crime is equal and in America, a crime is anything that brakes the law. Whether its shoplifting or murder, it all the same, criminal actions.

[DAUGHTER]

On 2005-09-21 09:20:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"Dang OL your getting soft. I lost respect for Daughter on page 1 of this thread.



A point for you to consider OL in regards to brainwashing.



1) Gaining physical conformity through routine excercise, and drill to mold a person into an acceptable manner of thinking. PT... or in short brain washing. Mind you not all mental rewiring is bad, and even I could use some pt, but most facilities institute PT for a part of a never changing routine to gain conformity over the group. Any physical benifits from PT are brushed over in the resident's detesting of the excercise as it is forced on them.



Hence why I used to take the older kids groups on at three springs in bench press contests. Used to leave them all crying in pain, but they all had a good time. I imagine if they didn't they would have never challenged me to a rematch on a regular basis. That type of physical activity is benificial as there is a fun element attached to it, and its self-esteem enhancing.



Quote:



You claim these facilities brain-wash people (you even claim they have brain-washed me!!!)



2) Most of the adjudicated youth I worked with were actually taken off their meds. Through positve role modeling, and praise they were encouraged to act in a manner that would not get them frog marched to the nearest detention center. This means a lot of time being spent in huddles confronting, and discussing improper behaviors, but the kid is not going to get better by just subtle reminders.



Quote:



Overlord, you have some strange ideas for consequences. Hopefully, you never consider running for President; our nation will be overrun with medicated criminals creating more problems for the INNOCENT!! They'd be free to harm abuse and prey on more innocent rather than serving time for their actions in an instructional facility.



3) I find it amusing how Daughter seems to think how serving time is going to actually prevent crime. The statistics to criminal relapses upon release are so absurd one would be inclined to believe it would be better to send the Adjudicated Youths on a all expensed paid trip to Disney World. At least the general public would have a kid with some happy memories, and a Donald Duck T-shirt to show for it's money. Time need not be spent uselessly for the mere sake or retaliation by society. Actual theraputic benifits are to be had under the right conditions.



Quote:



He had been disrespectful all day to my father and other staff members





4) I have had kids spend the first month of their entire stay saying nasty things to me. It's a matter of a kid learning not to hate everyone else for his screw ups. Once they accept that simple fact life goes on, and peace or such that it was once reigned again. Disrespect is part of the way things are when dealing with troubled children. Is it right not in the least, but is the way it is? Absolutely.



Quote:



The kid was being transported to Queen Creek because he was irate and disrespectful all day. He had attacked several staff members, including my father. He was not only a threat to the staff and other ranchers there, but also to himself. As a result, he was placed on suicide watch-his shoe laces removed and a chaperoin assigned at all times. While being transported, he complained to my father that he had to use the restroom.



5) Daughter this one is for you. I have tackled several kids as they attempted to flee, so it would be the last thing I would do is cry foul about doing what it takes to prevent a kid from hurting themselves. Any program who has a resident routinely attacking staff as the day progresses is responsible for maintaining the safety or the staff, and first and foremost the resident.



The options to the death of a child who should not have been allowed to escape are pretty easy. A person with any sense could figure it out.



1) Call the local sheriff and have the boy transported immediately to a detention center for his own safety.



2) Isolate him with two staff members in a room inside to allow him time to calm himself, while waiting transport.



3) Any moron who informs a youth ahead of time that they are being transferred to a lock down is asking for trouble. Don't tell the kid till the last possible moment, and that is when they are putting him in the vehicle to leave. Sounds mean, but it makes sense.



4) A kid who is that violent that they have to tranfer him should not be left alone with just one staff member. Nor should he be allowed near a group of other children.



It's pretty plain to me that ABR is at fault for contributing to the senseless death of a child. They may not have tossed him in the canal, but they certainly did not do much to stop him.

It's our goddamn duty to get these people back on drugs so they can think for themselves again!!!
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4728&forum=7&start=20#40163' target='_new'>RTP2003

"

Hey stupid, if you had read ANY of my earlier posts you would have read how I also disagree with prison because the return rate is so high. ABR at least offered them an opportunity to change and corect their behavior before it lead to prison.

[DAUGHTER]

I never worked at ABR, idiot. I grew up there. MY FATHER worked there while I was like 10. Read all the facts (my posts) BEFORE you comment on such things to me.
FYI, Contreraz only complained about the restroom to run.

[DAUGHTER]

Correction: I didn't mean Contreraz -- I meant the kid that dove into the canal.

[DAUGHTER]

On 2005-09-21 20:14:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"You're forgetting that the moment the child was incarcerated by the state of Arizona that his options became the options of what the State of Arizona deemed good and proper for him. Free will to not committing crime is still his basic human choice. On the other hand uselessly doing time in a pointless program that does nothing to promote a positive lifestyle that encourages the success of children is the responsibility of society at a Large.



ABR from what I gather is a state funded program for Adjudicated Youth. This makes the deaths of these children all the more galling to me as one would think that the state had a vested interest in promoting the safety and wellbeing of the youths committed to their care."

How can you all post on a topic without knowing all the factual details?? Contreraz was assigned to ABR not by the state of Arizona, but by the State of California!! California paid ABR minuscual amounts annually, the rest of their funding was private donations by their supporters.

[Anonymous]

Daughter, you are not fooling anybody with your garbage mouth or your bible-thumping b.s.

Nick Contreras did not deserve what happened to him at ABR.  

It's as simple as that.

Instead of blaming this poor boy (or his mother) I suggest you do your homework.  You do not have your facts straight.

 :smokin: