Author Topic: Arizona Boys Ranch  (Read 18628 times)

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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2005, 07:52:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-22 06:17:00, Jarhead6 wrote:

"Nihilanthic, I feel that you may have missed my point, and perhaps that is my fault for not stating it more clearly. Both ?Daughter? and Deborah opened the door about former military working with kids. So I feel that my post, while maybe not totally clear, does fit in this thread. I am not defending the actions of the staff at the ranch, I personally condemn their actions and lack of action in both of the case being discussed. SO to put a point on it here are the points I was hitting at.

1. Are there good programs: Yes.

2. Are there bad programs: Yes

3. Are there prior military that should not work with kids: Yes

4. Are there non-military that should not work with kids: Yes

5. Are there things that are taught in the military that cross over and can be useful to anyone: Yes ( i.e. the ?laundry list)

6. Are there things inherent to the military that have no place outside of the military: Yes

I did not mean to imply that using a military like boot camp approach was the way to instill the ?list? in fact I said ?These are some of the things that I tried to teach the students that I worked with, not only by talking about them, but also by living by them.?

Actual military boot camp has a very specific purpose, and as you said it is for consenting adults. I agree with that completely. The effectiveness of it is based on the individuals choice to be there and participate fully, that is why it works so well. But to say that the lessons that things that the military ties to instill in people have no bearing is in my opinion a bit closed minded. It?s how the lesson is taught that makes it relevant. I use the list in conducting corporate training, do I bark orders at CEO?s, hell no, they get their backs up and they don?t see the value of the concept. The same goes for kids, it?s the delivery technique that makes it truly effective.

Training someone for war is one thing, trying to teach people things that may be of use in their lives is another. In my opinion it does not matter where the info comes from, it is how it is EFFECTIVLY TAUGHT, that makes the difference. It is always up to the students to ultimately decide if they want to apply the information to their lives. In my personal experience the foundation to teaching is a strong personal relationship based on trust and mutual respect. Give them the tools and let them loose, they have to choose how they want to use them, but if the only tool you have is a hammer, then the whole world looks like a nail.

As far as the staff being refered to in this thread, well in my opinion they are culpable for the death of these students, I?d bring the rope, somebody find me a tree. I hope that this clearly states my opinions.



"


I basically agree with that, especially that truth and knowledge is basically axiomatic and it doesnt matter where it comes from, me or god or a maniac (though some carlbrookies might disagree).

But it also means that "military" this and that is irrelevant. The way you deal with kids is the way you deal with kids, not the way you give grown men a tough skin to deal with combat. The old prussian model (thats what it is, right?) of group conformity and humiliation to deal with children is going to fail and not POSITIVELY impact recidivism, no matter how much someone glorifies it or someones daugther or anyone else thinks its god's way.

You can give tools and teach stuff but you cant 'instill' something into a child forcefully without doing the sort of LGA bullshit most people here have had more than their fill of. So what Id want to ask is... why did you bring up the laundry list of what makes a good soldier?

Theyre not soldiers and are not supposed to be made into one in a 'therapy' camp for CHILDREN. If you mean setting a good example, then yes, thats fine. But a laundry list of character traits that are basically impossible to 'instill' into someone without LGA seminars if at all kind of struck me as... odd.

Lets be honest here. The only thing the majority of these camps really do is break them down so theyre afraid to do anything but tow the line so they dont have to suffer through it again. I understand good intentions but until I see otherwise with the punitive bootcamp model, Id quote that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Now, if its not a punitive bootcamp, thats a different story  :tup:

When he [Califano] claims that the voters of Arizona and California did not know what they were voting for when they supported the two initiatives, he reminds me of the way Serbia's President Slobodan Milosevic reacted to recent election results in that country.
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Offline Jarhead6

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« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2005, 08:11:00 AM »
[ This Message was edited by: Jarhead6 on 2006-01-25 10:55 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2005, 10:13:00 AM »
Don't high schools have Junior ROTC programs?  Why send your kid to a para-military "boarding school" when they can enroll in JROTC?

Same with college where kids can join ROTC, get a free education and enter the military as a commissioned officer.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2005, 10:15:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-09-26 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Don't high schools have Junior ROTC programs?  Why send your kid to a para-military "boarding school" when they can enroll in JROTC?



Same with college where kids can join ROTC, get a free education and enter the military as a commissioned officer.



"


Oops, I just remembered.  These programs are VOLUNTARY.  The teen can't be kidnapped and forced into a JROTC program.

 :silly:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2005, 11:22:00 AM »
Vast difference between boot camps and JROTC in school. Can't compare apples and oranges.
To my knowledge schools don't force march participants in black sweats or subject them to excessive PT for punishment. They don't deny them water or food or medical attention if needed.
Parents/society WOULD NOT tolerate the abuses common to boot camps on the outside. And the ocassional sadistic abuser would be prosecuted and likely loose his/her job.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2005, 11:30:00 AM »
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On 2005-09-26 08:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Vast difference between boot camps and JROTC in school. Can't compare apples and oranges.

To my knowledge schools don't force march participants in black sweats or subject them to excessive PT for punishment. They don't deny them water or food or medical attention if needed.

Parents/society WOULD NOT tolerate the abuses common to boot camps on the outside. And the ocassional sadistic abuser would be prosecuted and likely loose his/her job.

"


Exactly, so why don't parents encourage their kids to join JROTC instead of shipping them off to abusive PRIVATE boot camps?  

The answer?

BECAUSE THEY CAN.

And because many parents simply want to get rid of their kids and pay somebody else to deal with them.
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Offline DAUGHTER

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« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2005, 11:48:00 PM »
JROTC is a wonderful program and I whole-heartedly support it along with all the other interest groups out there, Fire Fighter Exploers, Junior Law Enforcement Groups, etc. They are honorable societies to be apart of and favored well in this country. Thanks for bringing it up, Jarhead.
  However, these boys were mostly sent to ABR by the judges that presided over their criminal cases. Their parents didn't send them there. Well at least not intentionally. The fact that these parents have no control and no disciple over their own children anymore is what ultimately sent these boys there. Had these boys had positive role models and people to hold them accountable for their actions, maybe they wouldn't have committed crimes that ended them up in the justice system to begin with. But, I 100% agree with you that there are people who work at these facilities, including ABR, that care about these kids and are ex-military. Ex-military people, to me, are honorable and respectable. Without them, who knows where are country might be. They are instilled with respect for authority and a love for our country and citizens. I think this is what makes them great at working with troubled teens. They can teach them such qualities, instill some character in them, break their walls down, and turn their lives around.
  PT is simply "Physical Training". It's like PE. Contrary to your rumors about PT, ABR didn't deny these boys water or medical attention. They didn't pass out daily from it or become physically ill due to PT. A nurse was present 24 hours a day, there was water fountains around every corner. All these kids did was push-up, jumping jacks, sit-ups, and some cardio for a short allotted time roughly 4 times a week. Their cardio could even consist of basketball, football, running or another sport the boys enjoyed. Sounds like really punishment. Public schools have "Physical Education" so why can't these programs have "Physical Training"? Afterall, they were all still in high school. There's a good possibility PT was mandated by the law, just like PE is mandated for public schools. Ever stop to think about that??
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2005, 12:01:00 AM »
Daughter ... can you read?

If so, please do a google search on juvenile boot camps where you will learn that many of them have been shut down either for abuse or because as study after study has shown, they simply don't work, and in fact, do more harm than good.

 :idea:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2005, 12:03:00 AM »
Yeah, Hitler had a way with youth too.

Daughter, no offense, but it seems to me you have a really bad attitude.

Give me 50!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2005, 12:07:00 AM »
Here ya go  Ms. Boot-Camp Fanatic (AKA "daugher") read it and weep. Juvenile Boot Camps R.I.P.

--------------------------------
National Institutes of Health Says Boot Camps Don't Work

Recently the National Institutes of Health hosted a conference in Maryland about juvenile violence and the best ways to treat it. Experts agreed that state and private boot camps with military-style discipline do not work and can even make problems worse (Ref 7).?

These boot camps began as ?shock incarceration? places for first-time adult offenders. The idea was to make a person?s time served so unpleasant that he or she would be ?scared straight? and ?shocked? into behaving better and avoiding another sentence (Ref 4). In the late 1980s state-run boot camps for juveniles came into style as a way to keep them out of adult prisons and to keep their sentences short (Ref 5).

In the case of young people, the hope was that three months in boot camp would quickly and cheaply turn around the juvenile?s behavior. A day in boot camp was highly structured with an early morning wake-up that may include a five-mile run before breakfast. If a juvenile broke a rule, he or she would be required to do push-ups or perform hard physical labor.

These camps were also run by private organizations, as worried parents would send their children away to ?military school? in the hope that the stern discipline and system of punishments would make their child more conforming to the rules of school and society.

However, preliminary studies done as early as 1990 were indicating that juvenile boot camps did not work ( Ref 4 ). In some cases, attendees committed more serious crimes after boot camp because they had learned techniques from their contact with more experienced offenders. In the case of private military schools, students functioned fine at the highly structured school, but returned to old behaviors once they got home.

As Harvard professor and psychiatrist Leon Eisenberg said at the NIH conference October 15, 2004, "Whatever these programs may do or not do for the child while he's in the institutional setting, [they] leave him completely adrift when the treatment is over. Some of these programs are, frankly, quite dreadful." (Ref 7).

To make matters worse, there has been a rash of boot camp scandals within the past few years. In one notorious case, an overweight 14-year-old lay unattended for hours in the sun after a three-mile run, and later died from heart failure. She had been put in camp after stealing $25 from a friend (Ref 2).

A 1996 study of three all-male boot camps in Colorado, Ohio and Alabama showed academic benefits to the system ( Ref 6 ). Boys attending camp received more individual academic attention and gained an average one grade to a year?s improvement in reading, spelling and math. The bad news was once they returned to their families and neighborhoods, most fell back into their old ways. Over 70% were arrested within a year of attending boot camp.

Professor Margaret Beyer writes that teens in particular do not respond to authority they cannot respect. Because their brains are not fully developed, teens view the world as black and white.

?They are fairness fanatics,? she writes. Teens hate group punishment and rebel against unfair punitive authority. Most studies of boot camps report that teens actively dislike their guards. Instead of respecting camp rules, they viewed rules as unfair and something to get around (Ref 1). Thus boot camps actually teach more hostility to rules and authority.

If bullying offenders with military style discipline and other scare tactics does not turn around a young person?s life, what methods do work?

Psychologists agree that for permanent behavior change, there must be an internal change in thinking. This three-step process is called ?self-revelation.? In Step 1, a person realizes his or her current behavior is self-destructive. In Step 2, he or she seeks ways to become more positive. In Step 3, the person changes his behavior. Self-revelation is more likely to come about when a teen can honestly and openly discuss his situation within a supportive and mutually respectful adult relationship.

?Positive behavior support? also works, which means instead of punishing bad behavior, a system rewards good behavior ( Ref 4 ). Keep in mind that the boot camp model is all about punishing bad behavior.

Finally, the teen?s family must be involved in the process. The NIH study concluded programs with the best results included family counseling ( Ref 7 ). The teenager and his family needed to openly resolve their disappointments and anger with each other, and then go on to appreciate what was good and lovable about one another.

In conclusion, a good program includes excellent academics in which a teen can succeed, positive discipline methods within a structure of caring not punishing adults, and family counseling to maintain the positive changes that occurred during the program.

"Military-style boot camps have been haunted by abusive staff members, even as they were being touted as cheap, effective prison space-savers and politically tasty." David J. Krajicek, MSNBC, December 23, 1999

http://www.boot-camps-info.com/nihbootcamps.html
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Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2005, 04:43:00 PM »
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PT is simply "Physical Training". It's like PE.


wow, daughter, your alittle behind arent you. PT is nothing at all like PE. I dont know what PE class you were in but PE was fun, PT sucks. PT hurts, I vomited monday thanks to PT, I never vomited during PE
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our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

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Offline DAUGHTER

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« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2005, 09:57:00 PM »
Call me, Hitler; say I have a bad attitude. I really could care less. I am not concerned with what has occurred at other facilities during their PTs. I defend Arizona Boys Ranch here, not all the programs in general. I have said this from the start. I have also said that I believe there are good programs out there and bad ones. Every kid needs something different. So all you anyonymous posters aren't presenting a very convincing arguement.

OverLordd, I guess it can be a little excruciating when you're out of shape. Its tough work, but maybe these kids will learn to obey and respect authority so they won't have to do so much of it. But once you're in shape, you feel better mentally and physically and PT isn't that bad. I've done it before, yeah, it's tough. But the boys only did it for less an hour a day.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2005, 11:09:00 PM »
***Its tough work, but maybe these kids will learn to obey and respect authority so they won't have to do so much of it.

You mean "less [than] an hour a day"?

How does "less than an hour a day" of exercise teach obedience and foster respect?
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Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2005, 11:19:00 PM »
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OverLordd, I guess it can be a little excruciating when you're out of shape. Its tough work, but maybe these kids will learn to obey and respect authority so they won't have to do so much of it. But once you're in shape, you feel better mentally and physically and PT isn't that bad. I've done it before, yeah, it's tough. But the boys only did it for less an hour a day.


Of all the disrepectful things to say!!! You have no idea do you, you think that if you respect your supperiors you get out of PT? You dont, its manditory, and it should not be for some poor kid.
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our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline DAUGHTER

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« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2005, 11:03:00 PM »
I couldn't agree more Three Springs!! Absolutely, true--every single word!! Thank you!
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