Arizona Boys Ranch

[Anonymous]

This gal has "no sympathy or pity" for a dead child? Heartless little Bitch!

[DAUGHTER]

Okay, first of all--you all say I am so cruel and heartless, but your words make you sound like you are the true cruel and heartless ones!! Who's the hypocrits now??

Secondly, concerning you asking me how I would handle the situtation if my own kid was in Nic's shoes.....simple-I don't have to worry about that because I would know how to handle my own kids and know how to discipline my own kids. So I am not worried about that question. And concerning your question of how the Lord would handle Nic--don't worry He most certainly will Judgement Day along with the rest of us. And if He feels any staff members were liable then He will condemn them, not us. SO let's let Him do his job and not worry about that.

And you are absolutely correct that one of the Ten Commandments is to honor thy father and mother. I am quite surprised you even know that!! Congratulations!! And I believe my relationship with my parents are none of your business, but if you are so nosey that you must butt into my personal life--well, too bad. I have said many times that this is none of your business. I HAVE honored my father and have even attempted to reconcile our relationship. The judge has even sentenced us to counseling which he has refused to consider. So our estrangement is not my fault. He was the one to make that decision, not me!!!! But do I still love him, yes-because he is my father. Do I still honor him-yes, because he is my father. I also appreciate the life lessons he taught me growing up (such as respect, honor, honesty, etc). he has also taught me things not to do in my life. But hey none of us are perfect in life. This website is not here to debate my relationship with my father or to argue our estrangment. You all need to learn how far is far enough. Stay out of my personal life and lets go back to debating this so called "abuse" scandal you all have so eloquently fabricated.

And no I don't have sympathy or pity for Nic because it was his own actions that landed him at ABR in the first place and there's nothing ABR could have done to prevent that-only him and his own mother. So why don't you blame then since they are the real cause here. Ms. Vega should be ashamed of the way she raised Nic-no child should have to be raised in the environment that he did. That is 100% Ms. Vega's fault, but Nic still made those choices. A poor upbringing is no excuse, he still knew right from wrong and if he didn't then maybe he belonged in a pych ward.

[Nonconformistlaw]

On 2005-10-08 19:25:00, DAUGHTER wrote:

And you are absolutely correct that one of the Ten Commandments is to honor thy father and mother. I am quite surprised you even know that!! Congratulations!!.....lets go back to debating this so called "abuse" scandal you all have so eloquently fabricated."

Yes...lets go back to to debating the abuse that led to that child's death at the ranch which is NOT fabricated. His death IS reality.

And as long as we are quoting the 10 Commandments..."THOU SHALL NOT KILL"

[DAUGHTER]

And they didn't kill Nic, either so it's all good!! Even if it was manslaughter--that's still not murder! Anyways, like I said that's God's job to judge them, not ours since the government already found them innocent!!

[Nonconformistlaw]

They were NOT found innocent unless the child's abuser's were acquitted in a court of law. And clearly no trial occurred, so they were not deemed innocent by a jury. Just because charges weren't brought doesn't mean it didn't happen. Nor does the lack of charges mean innocence...it means lack of ADMISSIBLE evidence or lack of AVAILABLE witnesses, nothing more!!!

[OverLordd]

Ok, well its been a while, and daughter has posted a few times so, its going to take a moment while I rebuke daughter.

To begin with.

contrary to all your beliefs, I am NOT doing this to "protect my daddy"!!

Well daughter in all honesty you really do seem to be doing this and defending this in order to defend your daddy. While maybe not your father, atleast you are defending the ideals that your family is based off of, and maybe your family name. No one likes to have a murderer in the family. Of course I wouldent want to be in a family that was based off of some of the ideals you espouse, because I have not heard a single thing about love from you. Also maybe you seek a way to repair your broken relationship and defending your daddy is a way to come back to his arms.

First was OverLordd assuming I was a "son of an ex-worker"

You wanna know why I assumed that? I assumed you were a son, because if I had a daughter I would not want her to know such places existed let alone let her near one, or let her know I worked at one. I would be ashamed the momment I came in for show and tell and told the boys and girls in class what I did for a living.

these kids deserved all the freedom this great country entitles them as being a citizen of this country up until they broke the law and had their freedom revoked as a punishment.

Does this include the right to a trial by a jury of peers? Well? Are you picking and chosing here daughter?

And the Bible says all I have to go spend forever in Heaven with Him when I die is accept His Son as my Lord and Savior and believe He died on the cross and rose again the third day. And I have accepted Jesus as my Savior and as a result, my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life. This is the only way one is allowerd into Heaven and once your name is written in that book it can never be erased. You're only "damned to Hell" by not acepting his Son, anonymous. Now if you wanna get technical about admittance into Heaven-receiving the mark of the Beast is the only way you will not be allowed into the pearly gates. No where in the Bible does it say that one that hurts a child is denied access.

This is where you are wrong on a few things daughter. Belife is important, very important, but James shows us that our actions need to go along with our belife. He shows us that if we truely believe our actions will coninside with what comes out of our mouths. As much as I would love to say a pauline "Saved by grace." James says, "Faith with out works is dead." So, you show me your works, you know like holyness and justice for the murdered children, and care and consern about their well being, as well as a general kindess towards them. And I will see about not trying to get you kicked out of heaven. You have yet to show the Christian ideals of love to us yet. Also one can be rejected from heaven for commiting the unforgiveable sin, which is blasphmey against the Holy Spirit. I believe in your actions of refusing to ignolege the Holy Spirit and his mercy and love to all, and not just people besides the kids, you have indeed commited blasphemy and if I were in charge you would not be in heaven. Moving on.

And please note that Nic was no murdered---had he been murdered, there would have been people prosecuted and charged and sentenced the crime, and no one has yet to be sentenced!! Remember that we as American citizens have the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty--its another freedom we have (and it was also a freedom this kids were given when prosecuted). You advocate for these kids to have their freedoms after the court revoked them from them but won't give these innocent workers that very freedom that was given to the criminals. Seems a little self-contradictory, don't you think?? Also, I would just like to correct you, I don't think kids are second class citizens, just criminals.

You discusting peice of meat, your showing your self to be less of a human being every time you open your mouth. Your double standards make me want to vomit. You say that people are innocent to proven guilty and that they have rights so we should not say that these people were murdered, but then you move on and say the kids were given the same rights. I chalenege you to dig up the court tanscripts and show us. Give a example of how they were treated, show us the trial by jury, show us the american law prossess that massively shafts kids all over the country for years and years. These kids were screwed over and you know it.

And if He feels any staff members were liable then He will condemn them, not us. SO let's let Him do his job and not worry about that.

I point out another example of a double standard here. She so enjoys chasing down criminal kids, she so loves "fixing" or "helping" or "correcting" these children, why does she not worry about justice for any wrong doings toward them. "Let God sort it out?" Ok, fine, lets let all the kids out of the child prisions and let "God sort them out." And lets let the adult prisioners out of jail and let "God sort them out." You are a sad human being daughter, your one sided justice makes me want to vomit.

The judge has even sentenced us to counseling which he has refused to consider.

So your father is breaking the law? Maybe we should send him away!

And they didn't kill Nic, either so it's all good!! Even if it was manslaughter--that's still not murder! Anyways, like I said that's God's job to judge them, not ours since the government already found them innocent!!

No one was found innocent daughter, there was no trial, so no one is innocent or guilty. A person is dead you filthy beast, some one has been murdered. Manslaughter is only a diffrent class of murder.

Now to my own comments.

I would like to comment on the heartlessness of daughter. As she speaks I continue to see the example of her hate for these children, and even her hate for her fellow man. I believe that if she found nic and could of helped him she would not of helped him. She constently says that she believes he got what he diserved. I firmly believe that you have commited murder in your heart daughter. I firmly believe you are not a christian, and you never will be a christian untill you get this hate out of your heart. I say I hate people in the industry, but I believe they still can be forgiven. I have friends that have worked or even still work for the industry in some fashion. I have forgiven these people, so what I have is not true hate. You have true hate daughter, you would never forgive a youth, you would never help them, you are a beast, blind and simple. We all know that beasts do not have souls. Need I follow the topic to its theological conclusion, I believe you can follow it.

[DAUGHTER]

Nonconformist--these men were never charged because the state decided these men weren't at fault. Had the state investigators decided the staff was responsible, then a trial most certainly would have taken place.

Overlordd-- yes, it sure has been awhile. Honestly, I thought you had given up; glad to see you're in for a fight--I missed all your typos and spelling errors (grab a dictionary, dude. You make such blatant and simple errors, it makes me question your intelligence quite honestly!!) Don't worry, mine will be equally as through here.
On the contrary, I could care less of my father's or family's reputation from our association with ABR. I am here because I believe the intentions of the program was completely honorable and positive. Only ridiculous message boards and biased articles have ruined these children's second chance. And correction--I have no murderer in my family. As I have stated before, my father quit ABR before Nic's death even occurred. Don't create yourself a slippery slope here. Just because he worked there in the past, don't assume (but then again, that's all you all ever do. That's what happens when you make comments without knowing the facts, in case you didn't know.) he wasn't in any way apart of this situtation. You don't want to be apart of my family because we enstill values and morals and that's wrong in your eyes. I'm sorry to hear this and I'm sorry your have no ethics. To imagine you are also serving our country?? This quite honestly frightens me. Maybe those Iraqis are just like these boys and maybe all they need is a little therapy and some pills, right?? You haven't heard a single thing of love from me? How about when I said I minister to under-priviledged children in efforts to share the good news of Christ with them and teach them to make positive life choices? I think you are just hearing what you want to hear, and that's fine, but this makes you biased. As you all are. And again, I am not defending my father in any way here. I believe I have stuck to defending ABR as a program here and have done a good job at leaving him out for the most part. I have left my relationship's status with father in his hands. I have tried and it is up to him now to choose whether he wishes to be apart of my life now. This message board is in no way an attempt to reconcile with him. He has no idea it even exists. But think what you want to believe (that's how it's accurately spelt by the way!) in your delusional little fantasy land you have created for yourself where no teenage boys can do wrong and where everyone can have a trial by jury.
You see you would be ashamed to share with your daughter and her class about such programs if you were a worker because you wouldn't raise your children with any morals or values, such as respect or honor or trustworthiness or confidence. OverLordd, you say you assumed that I was a son because you wouldn't want your daughter to know such programs existed. Correct?? So are you saying then it would acceptable for your son to know about such "hatred" existed?? Now who is full of double standards??
And I believe I have beaten this topic a little too much, but I will repeat myself once again just because I know you only hear what you want to hear and maybe by saying it once again you'll fnally choose to listen. Granting everyone a trial by jury is completely impractical. It costs too much and would severely back up our justice system to where a pettey crime would take months (perhaps years) to reach a judge. Practicality is extremely important in our justice system and your idea simply wouldn't work.

And concerning you asking for examples of my good works--frankly that is none of your concern. God knows my heart and He knows the level of my spirituality and He is the one that will ultimately allow me into the kingdom of Heaven. But as I have said, I minister to underpriviledged children, I attend church, I study my Bible, I pray and I tell others about Him. The only way I think ABR could have improved is if they had incorporated the good news of Jesus Christ in their program. But I am glad to say that several staff members from ABR have gone on to create their own programs which do just that. And I'm sure you're all glad to hear that these "abusive" staff members are still reaching these troubled teens. You know why? Because they care. I very much disagree with you OverLordd on your opinion that I can be denied eternity in Heaven because I support a program which tried to turn around lost individuals. I have not been blasphemous to God or Christianity at all here. I do believe that we are to love one another but we are also supposed to point out to others when they have done wrong and help guide them to the correct path. But ya know what? And the Bible says not to associate with unblievers as friends, and criminals are 99% of the time unbelievers-just like you said their actions don't defend the spirituality if they are. God definitely loves all, even sinners, but that doesn't mean we all get to experience the rewards and benefits of being born-again. The ones who choose not accept Him will face the punishment in Hell for all of eternity. And you know what, criminals will also have to face some punishment here on earth also. And I am totally glad you will not be in charge of who's entered into Heaven-you would probably allow these "poor, innocent, lost souls who didn't know better" and not force them to face any sort of punishment. I am grateful we have a God who not only grants us rewards, but also punishments. We all could learn this from him.

I am showing such hatred and lack of love, but you are calling me a "discusting peice of meat"!! Okay, first of all, it's spelt: disgusing piece of meat! And secondly, I am the cruel one, yet I do my very hardest from name calling or attacking your personal lives and religious beliefs. Yet this is all you do. OverLordd, at least you have a little arguement to throw back at me but you do it just as much as everyone else. You sit here and name call and attack people, yet I am the mean and cruel one here and I am the one to be denied into Heaven. You also say I am full of double standards, yet you all are the actual ones doing it. I can't call these teens criminals when most have done crimes throughout their entire lives and can be deemed "career criminals" but you can sit here and call another brother and sister in Christ a "disgusting piece of meat"?? Get real and open up your eyes. Maybe you should practice what you preach a little.

And these criminals weren't screwed over and I know that. They weren't just arrested off the streets and thrown in jail. They went before a judge to present their case, they were given an attorney if they could not afford one themselves and yes, some even were in court before a jury to plead their case. So go ahead and play your little violin for these boys and think they were screwed over. And in fact, I urge you to type up a bill, OverLordd, stating that all court cases regarding criminal cases or involving a crimes deserves a trial jury. Present that to your Congressman and allow him to present it to Congress (that is if you receive all the signatures required) and see how many votes it receives in each branch. I can guarentee it wouldn't pass. Impractical, simple as that. While it may seen like the fairest approach-it is simply impractical. SO please, by all means begin typing and when your bill (please name it the OverLordd bill, as it seems most appropriate) is presented in Congress, please inform me so that I may contact my Congressman and ask to be allowed to speak against such bill. Are you typing yet?? Why not, afraid of its failure and rejection?

I gain believe that we all will face a SEPARATE judgment one day from God. It is up to our federal, state, and local government to punish its citizens here on Earth while God will be in charge of handling his children on Judgment Day. If the government finds not to press charges or finds somenone innocent then all we can do is leave it up to God.

And my father didn't break the law concerning our relationship--the judge had suggested court appointed counseling for the both of us and my father declined the option. It wasn't mandatory and the judge choose not to force him to go so you know what?? That's fine with me, I know he will face the day when he will have to pay for that decision.
Oh and by the way, if manslaughter was truely considered murder then it would be called murder. There are different degrees of such a crime. If it was considered murder then why isn't it "Fourht-degree murder-for example"?? So you are trying to explain to me that when one is charged with manslaughter when a person dies in a car accident that they were involved in that they had every intent of murdering them?? I beg to differ.

And when have I shown hatred for my fellow man?? I show the need for punishment for one's actions here is all. And correction--I have never said "Nic got what he deserved". Again, you are creating yourself a slippery slope here. (If you don't know what that means, look it up-and learn to spell those common mispelled words of yours while you're at it.) I have only said it was Nic's choices that landed him at ABR along with his mother's failure to correctly raise her son.

And about deciding my spiritual condition--you might want to be careful. You are showing some traits of an unbeliever here as well. It is not your place to judge me and it is not your place to say I am not a Chrisitian-that is between me and God. Just because I believe in punishment for actions and fight for a case that I believe was not in fact murder doesn't make me an unbeliever. I am glad I am not a modern liberal as yourself and believe in medications or therapy as alternatives. Different beliefs such such petty topics doesn't mean I haven't accepted Christ. I also agree with you that everyone can be forgiven, including criminals. And I believe they can turn their lives around and make the right choices but the key thing is that they must ASK to be forgiven first. And in fact, I would definitely forgive such youth but once they are forgiven they must attempt to make the right choices and do what is right. That doesn't mean they will be perfect, but that means they are forgiven for their past mistakes and are given a second chance. I do love people, OverLordd, I just don't feel sympathy and pity for our criminal society. It was their choices and their actions. I do love people, but I also show what you may call "tough love" for those who make the wrong choices. They have lost their entitled trust and must earn that trust which they have lost back. Simple as that. But just because I believe differently as you do, doesn't mean I am damned to Hell as you may wish. Who has made you God and made you perfect to think that you are the only one entitled to be correct and whoever thinks differently than you is wrong?? [ This Message was edited by: DAUGHTER on 2005-10-09 00:53 ][ This Message was edited by: DAUGHTER on 2005-10-09 00:56 ]

[Troll Control]

On 2005-10-09 00:53:00, DAUGHTER wrote:

I am here because I believe the intentions of the program was completely honorable and positive."

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions..."

Seriously, Daughter, I don't know how you reconcile your faith in God with the utter cruelty and inhumanity that you espouse.

You might as well adopt this slogan for yourself: "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."

It balances well with the philosophy of places like ABR: "When you got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."

You ought to read some of the comments you wrote - not very "Christian" at all...

[Anonymous]

You are right, DAUGHTER, God does know your heart...and it is a black, evil one!
You yak, yak, yak for pages, and say NOTHING.
Nick was KILLED, and none of your ravings can change that. STFU!!!!