Good program experiences!

[OverLordd]

I really dont know whether to laugh at this or feel bad for you TSW. I mean sure it was funny, but the underlying circumstances were far from amussing. So right now, I think I will just  :nworthy:  to your wonderful story telling skills.

[OverLordd]

:nworthy:  :lol:

Now thats funny, but do you really like fighting? Fighting has never really appealed to me, now swords, thats another story, one day I might like to learn how to fight with swords... the real sabers and long blades and raipers, non of that samauri sword stuff.

[Nonconformistlaw]

TSW said-----"This post is for mah buddy Nonconformist!She done said that she thought I was hot! ummm or is that... oh heck never mind. It's one in the morning so I am entitled to just a smidge of confusion."------------

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I swore you to secrecy remember?..... ::cheers::

[Nonconformistlaw]

Here's a question...If I'm Irish, hows come I can never hold me liquor? :: [ This Message was edited by:  on 2005-08-24 18:32 ]

[Antigen]

Oh darlin', I see that you never had "the talk" you should have had from your mother or grandmother a good aunt. What a shame. It's so simple, you'll kick yourself for not figuring it out yourself. Grab one ear in each hand and hang on. That's all there is to it.

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author

[Nihilanthic]

I wonder what kind of licker we're talkin' 'bout here  :wink:

Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/remon.html' target='_new'>James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

[Anonymous]

Three Springs Way gookin:

Have you read the thread: under Teen Help Industry that confronts you "past counselors in these programs" and asks point-blank about you taking accountability? This poster expresses strong opinions about the lack of compassion etc.

I too find some of you "story telling" and joking around to be very self-serving.

IF I had seen one "take down/restraint" on one of these kids---I would have quit this FINE JOB right there on the spot. You spend a lot of time trying to justify working in this spineless, abusive, job for as long as you did.
And, most of your little "war stories" are not that cute.
My child was abused in one of these programs.
I MADE THE MISTAKE of enrolling her there, and within two months, I realized MY mistake, and removed her. If I had been there IN PERSON to see the abuse...as you were...I would have had my daughter out of there in 2 seconds.

[Anonymous]

I stand corrected--and thank you for your comments.

[Shortbus]

There are similarities between the type of joking that goes on between firefighters, EMTs and wilderness instructors. It comes from having a very stressful job. I know because Ive done all three. Dont be hard on TSW. Read some of his early posts. Theres many a poster here that is quick to judge and run someone off. There are better strategies if youre trying to increase the membership at your church.

[Nihilanthic]

In the end though it still doesn't change the fact that I came out of that miserable hell hole a better person for the hard earned wisdom I gained by the proverbial hard knocks life of youth counseling.

An arguement similar to that is how the abuse is justified by the programs, TSW.

Not accusing you, just raising a point before you overlook it...

Religions are all alike; founded upon fables and mythologies.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

[Anonymous]

you heard this quote many times:

What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.


You dont learn a whole lot when everything is going as planned. Its the shitty times that are most memorable and when the most learning occurs.

[Shortbus]

the lste one was mine

[Nihilanthic]

TSW, how is manufactured hardship in the form of 'roughing it' honestly worth a damn thing? All it does is build up tolerance to shit conditions, and living in a camp or any other authoritarian school/program/whatever just builds up tolerance to bullshit and either submission, or the skill of faking it until you cna get away (or *gasp* manipulating)

I've been through a TON of shit in my life, especially from the start of 2003 to now. Did it make me stronger? Yeah, in the sense that a bone wont break in the same spot once it heals and scartissue is harder to scrape or cut than something thats all pink and soft. But, building up tolerance to bullshit, getting a tougher skin, and learning to put up with crap doesnt make you a better person, it just makes you able to survive and endure. It doesnt make you a better person than anyone else, but you'd probably complain a lot less than someone whose never been through shit. And you can smugly go "pssh what a pussy/whiner" at the end of the day.

Survival isn't all there is to life. When all you learn how to do is put up, tough it out, tolerate shit, do as told, and generally just wait for the days torment to end so you can find your own sort of grey happiness in the time where youre not being fucked over or working your ass off fruitlessly, you're still not happy. It also doesnt do jack shit for the real issues you might have. Wow, I can shit in the woods, eat crappy food, and live in a tent! What REAL issues did they have? Are those addressed?

I could sit here and pat myself on the back for losing my mom to depression in my tweens, my sisters to my dad soon after in mind and physically at 18, being depressed myself as a child until I grew big enough as a teenager to scare the little shits off so they dont fuck w/ith me anymore, never having much in the way of property, friends, or anything else, never having a father, but its a waste of time.

Wanna know what my REAL problem is? Getting rid of the bullshit that I was brought up to believe, such as "put others before yourself" and "dont be selfish or materialistic". Spending all my damn time caring for others and not wanting anything has left me extremely unmotivated to want anything or do anything. Getting motivated or daring to want anything for myself. Getting a little arrogance and 'self esteem'. I sure as hell didnt get it by just getting a repeatedly tougher skin and nothing but bullshit and a lack of any *REAL* growth and development, which you get when you actually feel good, are accepted, and feel things like affection, pleasure, and love from someone.

And Im slowly screwing my head on the right way and figuring out how to be happy, but my CONTINUING load of bullshit on me and my family's plate isnt making it easy. Plus Im as disconnected from my family as I can be. It feels like I just live with people that look like me most of the time. I REALLY doubt that even MORE of the crap, and being TOTALLY removed from family, friends, acceptance, affection, and good, pleasurable, enjoyable things would help me one iota, no matter how you spin the 'self esteem' I should feel from 'succeeding' with the artificial, manufacturered 'hardship' and obedience Id have to deal with in a program, camp, or whatever.

I need a damn family, because the one I have is gutted out, dryrotted, dead on the inside, tied up dried up and dead to the damn world, care of my dad, the state of NC's legal system, and a lot of bad luck. Id wager a LOT of those kids in those programs are in the same boat Im in too, except even WORSE, because hey, mommy and daddy just had you kidnapped to get 'fixed'!

If you want to help kids, you need to actually fix the real problems, not make fake ones and fix them so you can manufacture self esteem. Its like making up the 'problem' of gay marriage or the 10 commandments and 'addressing' them (sorta like censorship or wtf Santorum is smoking) to pat yourself on the back. The real problems are still there! The real voids and emptyness is still there in their lives, and you don't fill that by getting mindfucked or putting up with bullshit.  

But, hey, I guess if youre better at putting up and surviving and suffering quietly, you dont need to fix it, do ya? 'Cause thats basically what I see the programs REALLY teaching everyone.

We must create an atmosphere where the crooked cop fears the honest cop, and not the other way around.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006JU7T/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Frank Serpico

[OverLordd]

Several on Fornits have posted primitive living conditions as abuse. I Others say living in tents during cold weather conditions as abuse, and completely inhumane. Hiking many miles, and canoeing many miles a day is some how abuse. I disagree with all of this for a few reasons.

Well its not that doing this is abuse, because I have done this repeatedly throughout my life. What is abuseive about this is doing it against some ones will, And doing it when they have absolutely no experiance in the feild.

[Nihilanthic]

Saying "you cant think of anything better!" doesn't justify what is being done if it doesnt work. "First, do no harm" is part of the hippocratic oath, isn't it?

More than likely, theyre just growing up on their own. Id do the 'program for a cold' thought experiment - if a program claimed to cure people of colds, and held them until it went away, it wouldnt matter WHAT They did, as long as they were released without a stuffy nose. If they got a cold later on in life, they would be accused of not working the program or not properly internalizing. Same for thinking wilderness crap is actually the therapy, if anything its just the scaffolding.

I'm not coming out here saying that you have to isolate children from hardship or theres no utility to them doing shit out in the woods, but INTRINSICALLY its no more therapeutic than making smores in their backyard. Its not the woods, its not the bugs, its not the tents, its not the latrines, its social interaction and ACTUAL growth and development. You might as well be running a convenience store or selling vegetables out of a truck... hell, that might actually be more worthwhile!

Im basicaly saying that becuase something is tough doesnt make it anything other than just tough. Its like saying "we develop character by  making them wear red shirts all day". So what? If they all happen to wear a red shirt or 'tough it out' while they socially interact and build relationships (naturally, NOT by force or coersion or based off of authority/subject duality or manditory disclosure and/or other program bullshit) its still developing via the interaction, not from 'toughing it' or wearing red.

However, not everyone is going to benefit from that. Some people are so socially fucked up group crap wont work. I can say what did help me, making close relationships on my own terms with a few people and developing an intimate bond. That got me out of my hole... running around in the woods would frankly just suck for me because as a kid if I didnt have internet access I basically has no enjoyment in my day, and I had absolutely no trust of anyone else my age or of 'teachers' at all.

And no, making them be around them isnt going to fix it anymore than putting someone with claustrophobia in an elevator will fix that. Hell, hearing 'community' anything makes me recoil even now!

But for those who have the requesite social skills to benefit from it, Im all for it. Im just not going to let it be defined as a 'wilderness effect' as a programmie mother thought her daughter had contracted from sagewalk. Its real friendships and personal feelings of success and winning, not necessarily the manufactured 'toughing it' that is required in a wilderness thing.

Edit: as far as reuniting with parents, I can say what WONT work... giving the parents utter domination and control over ther kids, and sending the kids off wont exactly help either, will it? Putting them on equal grounds, smoothing out the rough edges... and preventing one side from having undue control over the terms and the other. Somehow I doubt programmie parents are terribly keen on listening to their kids and admitting their own mistakes.

The legislature is to society as a physician is to the patient. If a physician ignored side effects of medications like today's legislators ignore the side effects of their legislation, the physician would be accused of malpractice. I accuse today's legislators (with rare exception) of legislative malpractice. Many of the ills that are so obvious in our society are a direct result of previous legislation. Their solution? More laws!
-- John A. Bennett, DO

[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-08-29 07:35 ]