Carlbrook

[Anonymous]

The longer the discussion, the more I agree with TSW...

[Anonymous]

I'm open to suggestions.

There is too much money to be made to share these things in public.

[Karass]

The reason I keep asking about alternatives isn't to justify what we did.  I don't need to do that.  It is to sincerely try to find an answer to the dilemma of what parents are supposed to do when a teen can not remain in the household.  Just assume that this is the case- the teen is a danger to the household and himself, is not addicted to substances and you do not want to involve the legal system.  This is where I am looking for options and until there are some, parents will continue to resort to the programs you believe are abusive and a waste of money.

I understand what Karen is saying and I ask the same questions. I'm all in favor of community-based treatment, and I personally feel it is criminal how little funding mental health care gets in this country and how shitty most of the community-based options are: basically 12-step meetings, IOP's and a phonebook full of psychologists & psychiatrists. Some of you may never agree, but there are situations where someone just needs to get away for awhile and hopefully come back to a different situation. But where can he or she go?

Earlier in this never-ending thread, I mentioned that I thought my son could've done just as well if he'd spent the summer working on a fishing trawler off the Alaskan coast. I'm not sure how realistic that is for a fucked up 17-year old, but who knows? Likewise, if he had an opportunity to go away for the summer on some kind of trip with trusted people, that might've been workable. I don't know how you would work in "therapy" in such a situation, and some people really do need medication for certain conditions, so there are some practical logistics that might be difficult. Legal system hassles also need to be addressed when a kid needs the court's permission to leave the state.

He and we had several goals, but one that we all agreed on was that he needed to find his way out of a very negative "rut" he had gotten into with his social & school environment and peer group. There must be lots of ways to do that besides The Programs, but whatever those ways are, they aren't so obvious to parents who have tried every local option and who come to the realization that maybe if he just got away for a little while, that alone would be helpful to him and to all of us.

[hanzomon4]

There's no easy options when it comes to kids with issues, the only real option is persistence and patience. Like I said earlier I was just like most kids that get sent away but my mom just never excepted that as an answer. She only sent me to a hospital psych ward after what she thought was a suicide attempt. She only left me in there a day because she realized that they had no real plan to treat me. You guys don't have to justify your decision(I don't think you're trying to) I understand you were desperate.
But parents can't keep sending kids to these programs because of a lack of options. The best option would be to send them to a state licensed psych ward, they have much less abuse allegations, and most importantly, oversight and accountability. It will take awhile to see change but you gotta keep trying, even if you  have to try the same things over and over again. Never turn to law enforcement unless you have no choice because your kid could get court order to a facility and you would have no say in the matter(Read this horror story)

[exhausted]

I'm interested to know what parents would do if there were no such thing as boot camps/wilderness/any programs of any sort? What would you do with your children if these facilities simply did not exist?

[Charly]

I suspect a lot more would wind up in the legal system or on the streets.

[psy]

Psy and OzGirl-  I'll reply to you and not to the SPAM.

Our son didn't show much internal change for about 4 weeks. He was more engaged in the hard wilderness skills and giving feedback to others rather than sharing much about himself.  It was a gradual process.  I was asked to write a really tough, emotional letter in about week 4 which was more emotional and painful than the initial impact letter, which was fairly factual.

Define "fairly factual".

This got through to our son.  After that he started trying to figure out his anger and hurt and how he could manage himself better.
I don't think he had any fear of being in wilderness indefinitely.  He knew how expensive it was and that kids weren't there more than a few months.  
How did we know he wasn't just feeding us/them what he needed to in order to get out?  This is where we trusted the therapist and the nature of our son's letters to us.  It was very clear that there was a shift in him. He became much more honest about what had gone on at home and how he felt about having to leave school and his friends.  As I said before, this therapist was outstanding and my son worked very well with him.  The process was designed to push their buttons in a safe and controlled environment.

Hmm.  Define "push their buttons".

I am not a psychologist, so I can't explain the entire process

Could you give us details on what you remember about this therapy?

but it was explained to me at the time and we talked to our home psychologist about it and he thought the whole thing was brilliant.  My son looks back on it now and agrees (remember-he did two stints at 2N).  
Carlbrook he could fake it to a great extent- wilderness he could not.
As for the journal entry that was posted from the 2N website- I don't see anything wrong with that.  Without being part of the groups and the process, I don't see how you can conclude that it is ineffective and bullshit.

I haven't concluded anything at all.  That's why i'm asking you questions.

The reason I keep asking about alternatives isn't to justify what we did.  I don't need to do that.  It is to sincerely try to find an answer to the dilemma of what parents are supposed to do when a teen can not remain in the household.

And this question has to be answered if we ever want parents to stop considering institutionalization as the "last resort".
There is a hesitation here (justifiably) to endorse any form of treatment remotely resembling a "program".

Just assume that this is the case- the teen is a danger to the household and himself, is not addicted to substances and you do not want to involve the legal system.  This is where I am looking for options and until there are some, parents will continue to resort to the programs you believe are abusive and a waste of money.

Bingo.
"Tough it out" is not an answer many parents will listen to, especially not when Educational consultants are talking to the parents, emphasizing a one size fits all  "fix your kid" solution.
I'm going to start an "alternatives" thread and see what people can come up with.

[Anonymous]

Dead or in jail Dead or in jail Dead or in jail!!!!!!

[try another castle]

I'm interested to know what parents would do if there were no such thing as boot camps/wilderness/any programs of any sort? What would you do with your children if these facilities simply did not exist?

I sometimes think of people in the public eye, like an actor, or a musician. I read about some of the shit they got into when they were young. Drugs, trouble, whatever. Really bad stuff. Way worse than anything I ever did. A lot of times, I think, "Damn, glad they didn't have my parents, or they would have been shipped off for sure." Well, their parents didn't end up shipping them off. Even though they might have been wealthy parents and could afford it.  And some of the people who were the worst, most fucked up brats ever, are doing pretty fucking sweet now. Yeah, there might have been rehab a few or more times, (and if they did or they didn't, it's nobody else's business, because they are an adult and take whatever fucking drugs they want.) but last I checked, they were making a hell of a lot of money, selling a lot of records, and starring in a lot of movies.

I would venture to guess that the amount of youths who end up DIOIJ without the help of a program is about the same as the amount who do go to one. (And Szalavitz has written about "success rates" re: synanon being similar to heroin users with no treatment, as an example.) It's just that the ones who didn't go don't have to deal with the added baggage of whatever the fuck happened to them while in placement.

[Charly]

With respect to the initial impact letter being "fairly factual", I meant that it was not full of "feelings".  We generally mentioned being hurt, scared and disappointed, but the focus was on the actual acts and offenses and not on how we "felt" about it.  The second letter was more about how painful it was for us (parents) and his sister to have gone through what we did due to his actions, and how it felt not to have him at home and be at a school where we could be part of his life and support him in his sport etc.  

Pushing buttons is not a bad thing if done in a controlled and therapeutic manner. Part of putting him with the boy who was so socially difficult was that our son understood that this boy's ADD and social issues drove him crazy, and that he needed to figure out a way to deal with the kid and not blow up.  

No more therapeutic details.

Tough it out stops being an option.

[exhausted]

I have to disagree Charly, I've found what you've had to say very interesting reading, but not on this one, some parents do 'tough it out' they have no choice but to tough it out

I am not going to condemn your decision to send your son away because it is not my place to judge you & I wasn't the one having to live with it

i tough it out everyday and will continue to do so, it's my job to do so, I brought these kids into this world, but it does not give me the right to take them out, it is up to me to see them through, doing the best I can to try to help them, if that means sacrificing how I'd like my life to be, then so be it, it's what i have to do .... I cannot agree that sending them away because I've messed up my job as a parent is my only option now, I have to put right where I've gone wrong, I won't say I know what that is, because I don't have a clue, I'm just playing it by ear and learning what works and what doesn't, giving plenty of the what works and throwing away the what doesn't - I may fail, I may end up with 3 boys dead or in jail, but I know I will have tried, hopefully my boys will know I have tried too

All I ask of them is to try as well, I have told them I will not try to 'make' them do anything, that I am not trying to control them in any way, I have however given them options, the ball is firmly in their court, it is up to them to decide which way they want this to go, it's taken me a long time to realise this, but I have got to the point now where I have learnt the vauable lesson that it is their choice, all i had to do was spell out their options and now back off & let them make those choices, fully aware that they cannot blame me for any consequences of bad decisions, becausee they are totally their decisions (within reason, i wouldn't stand and watch them do something really dangerous)
Their life choices are theirs, the consequences are theirs, I've protected and mommy coddled them for so long that they don't know how to decide for themselves what bad choices are, I've always been there to protect them - well not anymore, it's maturing time, and believe me this is the hardest thing I've ever had to do, this is my tough love and I hate it

[Charly]

Toughing it out is not an option if it is destructive to others in the household and to the teen themselves.  I don't know what you could do in your situation, but in ours, my son could not remain in the household. He agrees with that.  It had nothing to do with not loving him or not standing by him.  It had to do with saving him and protecting the rest of the family.  I am not going to judge you, but I've already told you how well I think your way is working.

[psy]

Toughing it out is not an option if it is destructive to others in the household and to the teen themselves.  I don't know what you could do in your situation, but in ours, my son could not remain in the household. He agrees with that.  It had nothing to do with not loving him or not standing by him.  It had to do with saving him and protecting the rest of the family.  I am not going to judge you, but I've already told you how well I think your way is working.

She has no other option and most people on this forum agree that her 19 year old seems to be the root of things.  If she can get rid of him as a crappy role model, the rest of the kids might eventually snap out of it.  She is working on this afaik.

[AtomicAnt]

Psy and OzGirl-  I'll reply to you and not to the SPAM.

Our son didn't show much internal change for about 4 weeks. He was more engaged in the hard wilderness skills and giving feedback to others rather than sharing much about himself.  It was a gradual process.  I was asked to write a really tough, emotional letter in about week 4 which was more emotional and painful than the initial impact letter, which was fairly factual.  This got through to our son.  After that he started trying to figure out his anger and hurt and how he could manage himself better.
I don't think he had any fear of being in wilderness indefinitely.  He knew how expensive it was and that kids weren't there more than a few months.  
How did we know he wasn't just feeding us/them what he needed to in order to get out?  This is where we trusted the therapist and the nature of our son's letters to us.  It was very clear that there was a shift in him. He became much more honest about what had gone on at home and how he felt about having to leave school and his friends.  As I said before, this therapist was outstanding and my son worked very well with him.  The process was designed to push their buttons in a safe and controlled environment.  I am not a psychologist, so I can't explain the entire process, but it was explained to me at the time and we talked to our home psychologist about it and he thought the whole thing was brilliant.  My son looks back on it now and agrees (remember-he did two stints at 2N).  
Carlbrook he could fake it to a great extent- wilderness he could not.
As for the journal entry that was posted from the 2N website- I don't see anything wrong with that.  Without being part of the groups and the process, I don't see how you can conclude that it is ineffective and bullshit.  
The reason I keep asking about alternatives isn't to justify what we did.  I don't need to do that.  It is to sincerely try to find an answer to the dilemma of what parents are supposed to do when a teen can not remain in the household.  Just assume that this is the case- the teen is a danger to the household and himself, is not addicted to substances and you do not want to involve the legal system.  This is where I am looking for options and until there are some, parents will continue to resort to the programs you believe are abusive and a waste of money.

The entire process is designed to force your son into disclosing his innermost, private thoughts and then force him to change them to conform with what the program and by extension you think they should be. And you see nothing wrong with this.

A human being's innermost thoughts, desires, secrets, views of the world are sacred and inviolate. To force disclosure of them and force change upon them is the most fundamental form of human rights abuse there is. You and other parents who use programs fail to see this basic ethical issue.

[hanzomon4]

Toughing it out is not an option if it is destructive to others in the household and to the teen themselves.  I don't know what you could do in your situation, but in ours, my son could not remain in the household. He agrees with that.  It had nothing to do with not loving him or not standing by him.  It had to do with saving him and protecting the rest of the family.  I am not going to judge you, but I've already told you how well I think your way is working.

What about the suggestion I made earlier, the hospital psych ward. It's licensed, has oversight and accountability, the staff is very well trained,  and it will give your kid and your family the timeout you're looking for. Also diagnostic test could be done to see if the behavior is the result of mental illness. He would be safe, your family would be safe and believe me if he is a danger to himself or to others they will admit him.
Please let me know what you think about this option....