Author Topic: Carlbrook  (Read 736041 times)

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Offline Karass

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1935 on: December 31, 2006, 07:20:20 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
"Mother nature" is not the coercive force that drives these teens to do the things they are required to do. These kids are purposely placed in a foreign social environment, a very carefully controlled social environment (facade), for a reason. So they can be coerced, in a way that cannot be done at home.

The coercion does not come from the challenge to light a fire. The kids aren't retarded, they know that the counselor can get in a truck and drive to Big 5 and buy a propane stove for everyone if that is what was desired. They are placed in a social environment to give the effect that it's mother nature doing the coercion, and this is what parents obviously want to believe to.

The coercion doesn't come from trees and bushes, it comes from psychological pressure manifistated through psyche invading structure of the program itself.

The first level of coercion comes from peer pressure. They force you to reveal things about yourself in front of the group (or in karens case read a letter from your parents) which gives the false sense of comraderie (again, it's forced, a facade). This is done to create a sense of peer pressure so that they can use that to force the kids to march, do stupid psychological games with the young staff, and not just sit down and not get up.

Tell me, what would happen to a kid if they just sat down, and played the "jello game" so familiar to those of us who watch small children? Well that brings us to the second level of coercion, which is no longer psychological. They will use every psychological manipulation available to them, usually they reach for humiliation tactics first and last, maybe at first they might even try some motivation. But in the end psychological manipulation can only go so far.

Obviously coercion, peer pressure, and all of the things you mentioned have an effect on the participants, and the hope is that some positive changes and insights result from it, even though that flies in the face of all recognized theories of psychotherapy.

Don't you find it interesting that they have adult groups (18-24 year olds) in the field as well as teen groups? What sort of adult would voluntarily sign himself up and pay all that money to have this kind of coercive experience? Probably the same sort of adult that would take a job as a field staffer (which doesn't pay much) and agree to live the same way as the participants, eat the same shitty food, use the same method for starting a fire, etc. Despite the madness of the method, there are some people who seem to find value in this sort of thing.

Quote
So what if a kid just sits down and refuses to go?

It's not mother nature who's going to be doing the coercion in that case. I don't pretend to know the answer to this question. But I wouldn't want to be a staff member if that were the case, and knowing how head strong and defiant teenagers are I would never want to be in this situation, isolaed, in the middle of nowhere.

The coercion was always psychological, never physical in the group my son was in. It would be a serious matter if a staffer even touched a participant in any way, and there always had to be 2 staffers present with any participant or group of participants.

Quote
I know parents love this torture-light bullshit, but the theory behind it is intrusive and dangerous. It seemed to work out in Karen's kids case and Punk's case. Great. I can apply this same technique and convince a group of people of anything you want me to. If I use this same technique and start some fat camps and use it to force kids to lose weight is that crossing the line?

How far can this psychological theory and technique be used to further commercial means? It would seem endless.


You're right it is intrusive and dangerous, and I don't recommend it to anybody -- even parents who were as desperate as we were. We got lucky. It could just as well have gone the other way. Interesting you should mention "fat camps" because someone is already doing exactly that. And you're right, there must be other commercial possibilities that could exploit these same 'wilderness therapy' ideas. They would be equally as dangerous and their outcomes just as unpredictable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves. -- J.B. Priestley

Offline AtomicAnt

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1936 on: December 31, 2006, 07:50:05 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Am I the only person compelled to vomit after reading SNWP website?

Talk about playing to parents naive romantic notions, I've never seen such an overuse of cheesy heart string pluckin' metaphors before.


No. You are not the only one. Websites like SNWP's are what drove me to Fornit's in the first place. I had never heard of programs before. I was just Googling Outward Bound and Wilderness Challenges when I came across the "Troubled Teen Industry." I became so upset by the Industry's own websites and methods that I had to research it further. My first reaction was to see if there was any kind of scientific, psychiatric, basis for doing this. I could not believe psychology experts could officially support such tactics. I was right. They don?t.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1937 on: December 31, 2006, 08:08:49 PM »
Quote
Despite the madness of the method, there are some people who seem to find value in this sort of thing.


Snack charming for teens. Teach them the value of natural consequences.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1938 on: December 31, 2006, 08:10:32 PM »
Snake*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1939 on: December 31, 2006, 08:27:46 PM »
Excerpt from Brooke Adam's account of Ian August's death.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... ooke#55721

The fatal mile: The sun rose at 6:08 a.m. on July 13 and began to broil Utah. The headline on a Page 1 story in The Salt Lake Tribune promised "No Break from Heat" as weather forecasters predicted all-time highs. In North Canyon, Bear Clan breakfasted on Toasty O's cereal, slices of bread spread with peanut butter and jelly, a piece of fruit and juice.
The clan set out for what was supposed to be a 3-mile hike around 9 a.m. -- a little later than Hale had hoped in order to avoid the heat.
Ian hiked slower than usual on the strenuous route; he and another teen stopped every few minutes, moving at the rate of one city block an hour based on a reading from Hale's GPS unit.
Soon, the group spread out, with the faster hikers ahead, Ian in the middle and Hale in the rear with the slowest boy.
Ian finished his water, his supply already reduced during the previous night's hike, and began to complain of thirst. Some teens shared their water, and Hale gave him half of her quart at one point. Ian drank it in a gulp.
The group crossed three ridges, one hill after another. Ian labored, at times stumbling. Two teens started urging him along.
"Come on, man, you can do it," one teen told Ian, according to a witness statement taken by the Millard County Sheriff's Office.
But as Ian crested that final hill around 11:30 a.m., after hiking 1.4 miles, all he could see before him was more of the same: up, down, up and down, an undulating landscape of sagebrush, native grasses, broken shale and scattered junipers and pinyon trees. To his right spread the Sevier Desert, empty and browned under the summer sun.
On the ridge, Ian stood still, his body already in the process of shutting down as his blood thickened in the heat and he became delirious. One teen noted Ian didn't seem to know what was going on.
"Come on, man." Ian didn't respond. "You can go down this hill willingly or we can put you down it," his hiking companion said.
[Commaraderie or peer pressure/coercion?]

Gause, who had reached the crest of the next hill, watched the agitated teens as they spent approximately 20 minutes trying to get Ian moving.
"Come on, man, who dogs it on the downhill?" one frustrated teen asked Ian.
Ian just stood there, dazed and sweating "like a pig."
The teen grabbed him and began pulling him along. Ian finally responded.
"Oh, I can do it," he said.
When Ian didn't move, the boys threatened to drag him to the next camp.
"No, I can do it," Ian said. And then he sat down. The two teens pulled off Ian's 29-pound backpack, and Ian lay against it.
One teen backtracked to Hale, who was about 20 yards away. She called out to him: "Ian, get your pack on and let's go."
When Hale reached Ian, he stood briefly and then sank back down to his pack.
"So do you need a break? Are you tired? What's the problem?" Hale asked Ian. He crossed his arms and stared at her. Hale tried to cajole Ian into moving for about 20 minutes. According to one teen's taped statement, Hale nudged Ian with her foot, shook him and slapped his face to try to rouse him from his stupor. Finally, she pulled out her radio and called Mark Wardle, who was in Delta.
"I can't convince Ian that he needs to continue hiking," she told Wardle. "What should I do?"
Wardle told her to check Ian's consciousness by doing a "hand drop test" -- holding his arm above his face and letting it go to see how he reacted. It flushes out fakers, Hale [an EMT, btw] would say later, because a conscious person will protect the face.
Ian's arm slipped to his side.
"I need to know if there's something wrong," Hale said to Ian. "Respond to me, tell me your name."
"Ian," he said.
Hale called Wardle again. "He seems to be conscious," she reported. "I can't get him to hike. What should I do?"
Wardle, who already had begun driving toward Marjum Pass, told Hale to pour water over Ian and move him into the shade.
Hale beckoned to Gause to come assist her. Ian now lay on the ground, motionless, his eyes open and occasionally making contact although his breathing was "strange," a mixture of a moan and a cry.
The counselors sat Ian up and tried to get him to drink water. It merely dribbled down his face. They poured warm water from their bottles over his head, chest and back.
The noon sun had burned down on the dying teen for more than an hour when Gause grabbed Ian's torso and Hale held his feet and "pulled" him 10 feet to a patch of shade under a pinyon tree.
Still convinced Ian was faking illness, the two counselors split up -- Hale running ahead to check on the rest of the clan and Gause moving 30 to 50 feet away so he could observe Ian from behind another tree.
Gause noticed Ian's moans stopped minutes after Hale left -- proof, he figured, that Ian was acting. Gause waited about 10 minutes and then crept closer to Ian.
As Hale made her way back to the tree, Wardle called for an update.
"How is Ian doing?" Hale yelled over to Gause, who, figuring his cover was blown, hurried to the tree.
Ian had stopped breathing and lacked a pulse.
Sitting alone under the pinyon, Ian August had died.
As Gause began CPR, Hale called Wardle for help. The 9-1-1 call came into the Millard County Sheriff's Office at 1:30 p.m.; it would take two hours for the ambulance crew to reach Ian and in a series of errors, an AirMed helicopter dispatched from Salt Lake City, would never arrive after receiving incorrect GPS coordinates and running low on fuel.
The truth is, medical experts later concluded, it didn't matter. Only an immediate ice bath might have saved Ian.
Judith called Susan on July 14. "Are you sitting down," she began.
"Yes," Susan said.
"Our son is dead," Judith told her.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Nihilanthic

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1940 on: December 31, 2006, 09:03:35 PM »
Yes they react out of fear and confusion back in the real world so it all worked!

He found a shard of glass so he got self esteem from a completely artificial situation that he achieved and overcame and thrived and grew and became a man in!

Whee!

Does anyone else get the glazed-over, fake smile impression of someone from the stepford wives I get? Getting self esteem from overcoming some fucking wilderness camp? Puhleeze.

I'd post the pressure.jpg thing again but I doubt I have to. Not everyone gets some automagical booster shot in thier ass of 'esteem' from overcoming stuff. It also wears you down, and the "its what you make of it line" rings more and more hollow each time you hear it.

But yeah we've still yet to prove this program does shit and TSW's breakdown was just conveniently ignored by the apolgoists so..

:roll: back to your regularly scheduled bullshit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Nihilanthic

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Is this the new shit?
« Reply #1941 on: December 31, 2006, 10:28:12 PM »
replace blah with babble babble bitch bitch and you got a kickass Marilyn Manson song  :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Deborah

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1942 on: December 31, 2006, 10:59:27 PM »
1989 Replies
33391 Views
Is this the longest running thread in Fornits history? If not, gotta be up there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline psy

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1943 on: December 31, 2006, 11:17:55 PM »
Quote from: ""Charly""
The first letter we got began, "I am ridden with disgust at what you have done to me."


At what point did this change?

Is it possible that he thought he would never leave if he didn't appear to change?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Oz girl

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1944 on: January 01, 2007, 12:43:38 AM »
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
Not even close

http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=4491

How actually useful is this thread? The reak of program apolegetics is so strong it is comprable to mustard gas.



The use is that there is actual debate going on with a parent who has put their kid through the system. What use is discussion if everyone agrees or just yells fuck you to all those who dissent!
To Charlie, a few pages ago you were talking about Second nature teaching responsibility to your son. It sound to me like he wrote what you both needed to hear. If a kid writes this stuff because he is seen as not progressing without it then I dont see how this reflects genuine internal change as much as the fact that he is in an unpleasant situation and needs to do or say something to get out.
 
We were also prevoiusly discussing book bans @ carlbrook. You said that even a normal school would be a little concerned if the kid did not engage with his class mates. possibly this is true. But a normal school would allow interaction with peers to be a bit more natural. Eg watchingTV or playing pool in the common room, playing sports etc. This would also play second fiddle to the primary academics which the kid is there for. I can understand why a kid would rather sit in a corner reading Ayn Rand than being made have therapeudic" appointments" with every kid in their house. it would be exhausting. Would you honestly feel comfortable spending an hour every night discussing your feelings with your work buddies? And would you not feel that this got in the way of actual stuff you had to do?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Anonymous

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1945 on: January 01, 2007, 02:14:38 AM »
:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :roll:  :-?  ::bangin::  :wave:  :silly:  :smokin:  ::boohoo::  ::armed::  ::crybaby::  ::crybaby::  ::crybaby::  ::crybaby::  ::crybaby::  ::cheers::  ::mecry::  ::mecry::  ::mecry::  ::kiss::  ::rocker::  ::read::  ::nod::  ::nod::  ::nod::  ::nod::  ::nod::  ::nod::  ::hatter::  ::burger::  ::burger::  ::bwahaha::  :tup:  :tup:  :tup:
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Offline Charly

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1946 on: January 01, 2007, 09:23:24 AM »
Psy and OzGirl-  I'll reply to you and not to the SPAM.

Our son didn't show much internal change for about 4 weeks. He was more engaged in the hard wilderness skills and giving feedback to others rather than sharing much about himself.  It was a gradual process.  I was asked to write a really tough, emotional letter in about week 4 which was more emotional and painful than the initial impact letter, which was fairly factual.  This got through to our son.  After that he started trying to figure out his anger and hurt and how he could manage himself better.
I don't think he had any fear of being in wilderness indefinitely.  He knew how expensive it was and that kids weren't there more than a few months.  
How did we know he wasn't just feeding us/them what he needed to in order to get out?  This is where we trusted the therapist and the nature of our son's letters to us.  It was very clear that there was a shift in him. He became much more honest about what had gone on at home and how he felt about having to leave school and his friends.  As I said before, this therapist was outstanding and my son worked very well with him.  The process was designed to push their buttons in a safe and controlled environment.  I am not a psychologist, so I can't explain the entire process, but it was explained to me at the time and we talked to our home psychologist about it and he thought the whole thing was brilliant.  My son looks back on it now and agrees (remember-he did two stints at 2N).  
Carlbrook he could fake it to a great extent- wilderness he could not.
As for the journal entry that was posted from the 2N website- I don't see anything wrong with that.  Without being part of the groups and the process, I don't see how you can conclude that it is ineffective and bullshit.  
The reason I keep asking about alternatives isn't to justify what we did.  I don't need to do that.  It is to sincerely try to find an answer to the dilemma of what parents are supposed to do when a teen can not remain in the household.  Just assume that this is the case- the teen is a danger to the household and himself, is not addicted to substances and you do not want to involve the legal system.  This is where I am looking for options and until there are some, parents will continue to resort to the programs you believe are abusive and a waste of money.
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Offline try another castle

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1947 on: January 01, 2007, 09:24:19 AM »
Quote
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing34.html


"Steve Eichel, a psychologist, used his cat to prove that some certifications are easy to get. Zoe was certified as a hypnotherapist by several associations including the National Guild of Hypnotists."

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

I SO totally want to call him and say "Can I make an appointment with Zoe?" hee hee. hypnotic kitty.

My cats hypnotize me. They stare me in the eyes, I lose track of time, and when I look down, my dinner's gone. "You want me to have the chicken.. yes you do."

As for that SN stuff. Buncha crap. Think there's enough bullshit lingo laced through that testimony? Took me a second to figure out what an "earth phaser" was. "got 2 new earth phasers." Sounds like something that would happen in Doom or Quake... if it was programmed by hippies. Eat dirt, bitch, I'm packing an earth phaser.
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Offline Charly

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1948 on: January 01, 2007, 11:22:49 AM »
I would be glad to hear about confirmed death, injuries or abuse at 2N during the last 6 years.  It did not appear to me that the journal entry went into detail about the specific therapeutic program for that teen.  It just outlined the structure of the day.  
TSW, you have SO much credibility with parents.  All you can say to me in response to my concern about alternatives is that I am blowing off my parental responsibilities.  Do you recommend keeping the child at home no matter what is going on?  Perhaps hire a huge personal escort to keep the family and teen safe?  I'm open to suggestions.
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Offline try another castle

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1949 on: January 01, 2007, 11:30:33 AM »
You're right, Gookie, this thread does go around in circles.

wheeeeee!
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