A cult?

[BuzzKill]

I know about the branches Niles - I took science 101.
A Coelacanth?
Yes, I know all about these buggers too.
A Greek Fisherman pulled one up off the bottom of the Mediterranean not long ago - still very much a  Coelacanth - wet and flopping.

There are no transitional forms in the fossil record - the fossil Coelacanths are identical to the modern  Coelacanths  and so it seems they never did get around to becoming anything that lived on land - lizard or amphibian or otherwise.

This lack of transitional fossils is exactly what left traditional evolutionist scratching their noggins and wondering where they all were. There should be millions of them. . . .
But since there aren't any - then it must be there were a bunch of sudden changes - yes that's it -
And so it goes.

Ape men?
No Greg - they are either an ape, or a man.
There are various types of apes; and various types of men - but no ape-man.

The illustrations you are so familiar with that show the transgression from an ape walking on its knuckles to an upright walking man, are 9/10ths fictional. It illustrates what evolution theorizes happened - not what they have any actual evidence of. And the thing is - there should be Lots of evidence if evolution happened.  

I have already delt with the similarities found in the diversity of Life - and why I think that is.

I find the extreme resemblance of a marmoset skull to a man's fascinating - but not proof of evolution.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-05-16 12:04:00, BuzzKill wrote:



There are no transitional forms in the fossil record ...

This lack of transitional fossils is exactly what left traditional evolutionist scratching their noggins and wondering where they all were. There should be millions of them. . . .

 

Millions of what? The fossil record is rich indeed.

But since there aren't any - then it must be there were a bunch of sudden changes - yes that's it -
 

You say this right after you were linked to two scientific websites REPLETE with examples of transitional fossils.  

I think any discussion with you needs one of these every few paragraphs....


[[[[[[[[[[[[sigh]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Ape men?

No Greg - they are either an ape, or a man.

There are various types of apes; and various types of men - but no ape-man.

 

You are wrong, they are neither, they have characteristics of both apes and man. Read the links, Buzzkill.  Look at the skulls, and compare them to a the skulls of modern Chimp, and ape, and then to modern man. You can see the transitory changes clearly if you WANT TO.

 One of your statements is interesting...various types of men? Where? I look around and see one type of man...Homo Sapiens. Are you saying there are other types? Where are they? The fossil record supports your theory but indicates they died a long long time ago. You have record of these ape men  (or ape-like if we are splitting hairs)  

The illustrations you are so familiar with that show the transgression from an ape walking on its knuckles to an upright walking man, are 9/10ths fictional. It illustrates what evolution theorizes happened - not what they have any actual evidence of. And the thing is - there should be Lots of evidence if evolution happened.  

there is massive evidence for evolution.

Yes it illustrates what evolution theorizes and yes it is supported by evidence. You misuse the term "Theory" as it applies to science suspiciously like the dishonest creation websites do. I think you are a victim of propaganda....


you keep alluding to the  myth created by religious creationists that the theory of evolution lacks evidence. Evolution is one of the most scientifically supported theories in all of science.


Stop sticking hot pokers in your eyes...go back and actually look, compare, and read with an open mind. Whether that is possible remains to be seen.

[Anonymous]

Stop sticking hot pokers in your eyes...go back and actually look, compare, and read with an open mind. Whether that is possible remains to be seen.


Maybe you should do this when it comes to the evidence in support of who Christ is.

[GregFL]

And anyone who has read this thread knows I have read the bible over and over and probably know much more about "the evidence for christ" than you do.

The evidence points to a compiled myth.



Nice red herring.

[BuzzKill]

//Stop sticking hot pokers in your eyes...go back and actually look, compare, and read with an open mind. Whether that is possible remains to be seen. //

Well it seems to me, it be you trying to poke me eye out.

OK - the transitional creatures - you say there are some?

You will admit there should be many hundreds of them; that in fact the transitional creatures ought to out number the designated creatures, b/c there would be many of them over the eons, between say a fish and a frog? How many can you name?

Different kinds of men - What I mean is, say the difference between the tiny men recently found in New Zealand (or was it New Genuie?) and Neanderthal - or you. You and Neanderthal and the tiny men are all very clearly men. None of you is suspected of being an ape-man, tho all of you differ from one another and all have ape like qualities.  

The apes - them and their fossils I can't name - but I have never heard anywhere that any of them were ape-men.

The two or three things that seem to put a fossil in one category or the other - man or ape - have so far been clear in each fossil found.

Yes there are striking similarities (which I find fascinating) I would say this was true at the beginning just as now - and that there is a reason for it that has nothing to do with kin ship.

Science has had to rethink of late,  just what is it that makes men different from the animals. Many of the things once thought ours alone, are also talents and gifts of the animal's. Emotion, self awareness, language and tool making have all been proven to exist among the animals. This is wonderful and hugely interesting - but no one has seriously suggested these animals are human.

Despite all these very significant things held in common by animals and men - they are still clearly not men. I'm simply saying the same holds true for the fossil record.

[BuzzKill]

I ment to tell you - I can't bring up your links. It tells me they can't be found; not unlike transitional fossils! ( :wink:Just teasing) But I really can't get the links.

About this:
Where are the mention of all these different types of ape-men in the bible?//

In my opinion - the Bible Limits the men it describes and the history it gives b/c it is dealing with the Blood line of the Messiah, and history of the people threw which God would make Himself known.

[BuzzKill]

Now Greg & Niles - I KNOW you guys (and many others) don't believe this and I am not such a fool as to think song lyrics will sway you -

This is for anyone who may be reading and wondered what I mean when I say I think it was the resurrection that accounts for the sudden and dramatic change in the attitude of the apostles and Disciples.

I've always felt this particular song explains this well - but its not intended as any kind of 'Proof' - I'm not that big a fool.



The gates and doors were barred and all the windows fastened down;
I spent the night in sleeplessness and rose at every sound
Half in hopeless sorrow and half in fear the day
Would find the soldiers breakin' thru to drag us all away

And just before the sunrise I heard something at the wall
The gate began to rattle and a voice began to call;
I hurried to the window and looked down into the street
Expecting swords and torches and the sounds of soldier's feet

There was no one there but Mary so I went down to let her in;
John stood there beside me as she'd told us where she'd been.
She said "They moved Him in the night and none of us knows where;
The stone's been rolled away and now His body isn't there!"

We both ran t'ward the garden, then John ran on ahead;
We found the stone and empty tomb just the way that Mary said.
But the winding sheet they wrapped Him in was just an empty shell;
And who or where they'd taken Him was more than I could tell.

Well, something strange had happened there, but just what I didn't know;
John believed a miracle but I just turned to go.
Circumstance and speculation couldn't lift me very high
'Cause I'd seen them crucify Him, then I saw Him die.

Back inside the house again the guilt and anguish came;
Everything I'd promised Him just added to my shame.
When at last it came to choices, I denied I knew His name;
And even if He was alive, it wouldn't be the same

But suddenly the air was filled with a strange and sweet perfume;
Light that came from everywhere drove shadows from the room.
Jesus stood before me with His arms held open wide;
And I fell down on my knees, and just clung to Him and cried.

He raised me to my feet and as I looked into His eyes,
Love was shining out from Him like sunlight in the skies
Guilt in my confusion disappeared in sweet release
And every fear I'd ever had just melted into peace

CHORUS
He's alive! He's alive, He's alive and I'm forgiven!
Heaven's gates are open wide:
He's alive, He's alive, oh He's alive and I'm forgiven
Heaven's gates are open wide
He's alive, He's alive, hallelujah He's alive

[GregFL]

You haven't looked at any of our material, that is why you keep drawing these erroneous conclusions.....


[[[[[[[[[[[[[SIGH]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

[Anonymous]

Buzz, thanks for continuing this thread.  I too do not believe in evolution.  But more importantly, I do believe in the resurrection! If someone was going to steal the body, why would they take the time to fold the linen?  Also, wouldn't they just move the stone enough to squeeze in and out?  Not move it completely away from the opening?

[BuzzKill]

//You haven't looked at any of our material, that is why you keep drawing these irroneous conclusions.....//

In my opinion, my conclusions are sound. :wink:
I have read Lots of articles over the years in many journals and magazines and am not ignorant of what your sites no doubt argue - but will you please just check your links and make sure they are good?

Anon, your welcome.

[Nihilanthic]

The drawing of attention to irrelevant details of a story in the attempt to create a strawman to prove your point is both childish and entertaining, anon.

Also, beliefs dont mean diddly squat - especially if theres evidence and science and facts floating around, like in the modern era.

Running interference for Karen is nice, but to be blutnly honest, she got her head handed to her. She (and you) cling to beliefs like a widly flopping palm tree in a storm of reality.

Thats all fine and dandy, but you could at least grow up to be an adult intellectually instead of 'nuh uh' us like a child. Which you two basically are doing. Its just an approved sense of immaturity because "adults" get awfully pissed off if you challenge their beliefs.

But yeah, whatever, spew what you want and bluntly ignore us. At LEAST recognize that its a BELIEF, NOT FACTS, NOT evidence, that you hold. A belief, and ONLY a belief.

I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
--Frank Lloyd Wright, American architect

[GregFL]

On 2005-05-16 19:36:00, BuzzKill wrote:

"//You haven't looked at any of our material, that is why you keep drawing these irroneous conclusions.....//



In my opinion, my conclusions are sound. :grin:

[Anonymous]

Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc....all believe in different VERSIONS of God....but it IS the same God. There is only one God....but different cultures choose to believe however they were raised and however they feel comfortable. There is nothing wrong with that. Most of how we choose to view God as is mythological and based in legend and story telling. It is the basic premise of doing good works and being kind to others that is the real message. Not HOW we see him/her. And what is written in the bible was written not by Jesus, but by other men, at different times. Alot of what modern westerners read in the bible was actually written by men hundreds of years after Jesus lived. And written based on superstitions and beliefs of those times. Jesus never sat down and said..HEY write a book and put down what I say. Jesus was more or less a political figure really for his time. He rebelled against what he felt were immoral and illogical practices in his own Jewish religion and he also encouraged others to rebel against Roman oppression. We should all learn to hate a little less and understand a little more. Be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, American Indian, or Druid...it really doesn't matter who we worship, it matters how we live our lives. Peace.

[Nihilanthic]

According to many of those religions, what you do in life does NOT matter, its who you believe.

That is, they believe a good heathen will go to hell and a bad christian will be forgiven - but hey, we're all bad, original sin, bla bla bla.

Personally, I dont know what the hell is going on, so I try to be a good person period. If I still get damned for it, well, then I'll be damned.

Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll  forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet

[GregFL]

Actually, offering that everyone prays to the same god is a false premise.

It assumes the following.

There is a god.

God is a universal concept.

People view god differently thru culture.


Several problems with this. First, there is no evidence of the supernatural, so that is just a sweeping claim. second, the history of God, or Gods rather, is very different. Our particular favorite God is the God of the Bible, a very different god than is worshipped by other cultures. I think the argument that we all worship the same God oversimplistic. For one thing, many many people reject the notion of a supernatural God in charge of the Universe. Also, many people believe in religions with Multiple gods. How can you worship the same god and multipe gods at the same time?

Is worship of Zeus the same as worship of Yahweh (the polytheistic hebrew war God of of Paul that morphed into christianity's "one god" concept).?

Is worship of Satan the same as worship of Buddah?  

In my opinion no. These concepts offer vastly different manifestations of morality and a view of the universe. For instance, Buddism teaches a very different world view than Christianity, which postures we are all just evil Hell bait that are being tested for heaven.

By the way, here are a few interesting links on Yahweh and polytheism...

http://www.rhewitt.com/God/god_of_gods.htm

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/brutal.htm