cross creek manor

[Anonymous]

Talk to more parents.

[001010]

Perri is an example of the program "working" for her. We program vets like to call that "brainwashed." Who's to say if it'll ever wear off? She's obviously happy accepting her "new reality."  

So that makes caging, beating, demeaning, degrading, humiliating, brainwashing-mind control, torturing, hog-tying, sucker-punching, long periods of isolation in one position, starvation, lack of medical attention, total isolation from family and friends, emotional trauma, pepper-spraying 3x or more times a day every day for months on end, and denial of basic hygiene and personal needs such as bathroom privileges or attention to lice/scabies/ringworm/no shoes/open sewage under laundry drying/food poisoning okay?    

So, torture and abuse can be therapy as long as some of the kids aren?t tortured and abused? Your comparisons don?t come close to justifying child abuse, neglect, and nothing you say will sell me on those ?Lifespring? based ?Discovery? and ?Focus? seminars.  I know what they are, and they?ve been duplicated from the ideas of evil men - businessmen who are taking advantage of the neediness of human nature, and exploiting it for self-serving purposes.  

Using and abusing every step of the way, as long as a few get by seemingly unscathed, is worth all of the destruction of countless children?s minds permanently? Do you realize how many times this ?Therapeutic process? has been recycled and failed?  WWASPS are just another notch in the belt of destructive, brutal, mean, mind-control programs/cults. They?re not making breakthroughs re-wiring children, they?re making the big bucks off of permanent emotional and physical scars.

Those who ?get it? actually lost it in the process?

Being broken then fixed by quacks and crooks is a crock.

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

_________________
EST ("Lifespring") 1983
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke

[Anonymous]

/So that makes caging, beating, demeaning, degrading, humiliating, brainwashing-mind control, torturing, hog-tying, sucker-punching, long periods of isolation in one position, starvation, lack of medical attention, total isolation from family and friends, emotional trauma, pepper-spraying 3x or more times a day every day for months on end, and denial of basic hygiene and personal needs such as bathroom privileges or attention to lice/scabies/ringworm/no shoes/open sewage under laundry drying/food poisoning okay? /

None of that is okay!  Perri said it didn't happen to her.  Are you calling her a liar?  If it didn't happen and she was helped...that is great!

[Anonymous]

On 2005-05-04 07:47:00, Anonymous wrote:

"okay, lets outlaw all use of any meds 'cause they can harm sooooo many people and you know Chemo therapy not administered correctly kills everyone so no matter how many it saves, since it doesn't save and help everyone, let's eliminate that too?  Don't you see how silly you are?  Instead, let's work towards a system that promotes healing and help for those that need it.  Perri was in the right program for her.  If the program was wrong for someone else, get that kid somewhere else.  Work toward helping make things right.  Not eliminating something that is successful for people like Perri."

Yeah, well, the difference is that we have this organization called the FDA that requires what we call "scientific drug trials"--perhaps you've heard of them?--to ensure that the "meds" on the market are safe and effective for the conditions they're approved to treat.

While some of the drugs approved by the FDA have serious risks, the conditions those drugs are approved to treat are so serious, and the drugs so statistically, scientifically proven effective, that the benefits outweigh the risks.

The thing is, all these meds have been scientifically tested up one side and down the other, with the data collected and analyzed and all vetted by the FDA to provide consumers at least some reasonable assurance that it was done properly.  Because that's been done, doctors and patients *know the statistically quantified risks and benefits*---rather than just buying into a risk and benefit package blindly where nobody knows *what* the percentage risks are versus the percentage benefits or even if there *are* any benefits compared to alternate treatments or a placebo.

There's a world of difference between a treatment that's been scientifically tested, and the data collected, and been proven safe and effective

Versus

"Treatments" where the providers work like hell to actively avoid anybody actually doing long term studies comparing them to no treatment or placebos.  Probably because they have a pretty damned good guess that the results, if known, would be devastating to their business prospects.

NIMH says that the results that *are* available, and apparently enough results are in for them to make a definitive call, indicate that facilities that put mentally ill children alongside juvenile delinquents do the mentally ill children "more harm than good."

You see, that's the difference.

Meds and treatments like chemo therapy are scientifically proven to do patients more good than harm.

NIMH says the scientific results are in and that the Programs do mentally ill children more harm than good.

I guess comparing "More Good Than Harm" to "More Harm Than Good" and seeing a difference between the two is beyond your mental capacity, huh?

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

On 2005-05-04 08:58:00, Anonymous wrote:

"/So that makes caging, beating, demeaning, degrading, humiliating, brainwashing-mind control, torturing, hog-tying, sucker-punching, long periods of isolation in one position, starvation, lack of medical attention, total isolation from family and friends, emotional trauma, pepper-spraying 3x or more times a day every day for months on end, and denial of basic hygiene and personal needs such as bathroom privileges or attention to lice/scabies/ringworm/no shoes/open sewage under laundry drying/food poisoning okay? /



None of that is okay!  Perri said it didn't happen to her.  Are you calling her a liar?  If it didn't happen and she was helped...that is great!

"

Perri has also said she doesn't consider it child neglect to deprive a child below a certain "level" of *shoes*.

I'm not calling Perri a liar.  I'm calling her actively "reality challenged."

Timoclea

[spots]

On 2005-05-04 08:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I have never met or spoken to a parent that "wanted" to put their kid there."

Talk to my grandaughter's stepfather, who found the perfect solution to his "problem" that came along with his new mega-bucks wife, while sitting in his recliner surfing the net on his laptop.  It worked too.  Not only did he get her out of his life for a year, but she is now out of his life (and her mother's) forever, as she doesn't want anything to do with either of them.  In what may have been a final explosive phone call about 2 weeks ago, our girl tried to tell her mother just some of the more mild punitive experiences she had at Casa by the Sea.  Her mother's response was "...if I had it to do over again, I'd do the same thing, because you'd be deadorinjail without WWASPS".  Holy cow!  Still a program junkie cultist, which is absolutely amazing, considering the very bad outcome of her family situation.  

The other loser in this scenario is her younger sister, who now has contact only by phone calls, and will probably not be with her sister until the younger one is old enough to be out on her own, away from the parents who are using the same negative parenting techniques they learned in Tough Love (minus WWASPS).[ This Message was edited by: spots on 2005-05-04 09:49 ]

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-04 07:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You know insulin is necessary for diabetics, but if you gave a non diabetic the same dose, it could kill them.  Should we ban all use of insulin?  The program Perri was in was helpful to Perri and obviously to others as well.  Why not be thankful that she was helped and look for a way to make the programs work for others as well."

Honestly? Because it seems far more likely that either 1) she had the unbelievable good fortune to have some rebel staff who protected their group from ever experiencing the Program full blast or 2) she didn't get helped w/ her problems so much as she was helped to learn how to suck it up and call it help. Likely a little bit of both.

If you really want to improve the program (and the operators of WWASP have demonstrated again and again that they do not!) the first thing you'd want to do is eliminate the BM elements of it. That would mean What you'd have left would be, in some cases, nothing and, in other cases, a nice little retreat w/ some form of schooling and possibly access to some form of psychotherapy.

But that's just so far removed from the base philosophy of the troubled parent industry.

I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[bandit1978]

Anon- stop comparing these programs to pharmacuticals.  

Anyway, cancer patients make AN INFORMED CHOICE to receive chemotherapy.  There is tons of scientific research that goes into chemotherapy research, and scores of doctors and scientists who  devote their careers to cancer research.  The same cannot be said for the "teen help" industry.  

It is a very poor comparison. "Don't you see how silly you sound?"  :wstupid:

[Anonymous]

no informed choice of treatment if you are a child!

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-04 08:58:00, Anonymous wrote:

"/So that makes caging, beating, demeaning, degrading, humiliating, brainwashing-mind control, torturing, hog-tying, sucker-punching, long periods of isolation in one position, starvation, lack of medical attention, total isolation from family and friends, emotional trauma, pepper-spraying 3x or more times a day every day for months on end, and denial of basic hygiene and personal needs such as bathroom privileges or attention to lice/scabies/ringworm/no shoes/open sewage under laundry drying/food poisoning okay? /



None of that is okay!  Perri said it didn't happen to her.  Are you calling her a liar?  If it didn't happen and she was helped...that is great!

"

No, Perri says that much of that didn't happen within her sight at CCM. Total isolation from family and friends? That's part of the program. It's right in the contract. Ask any parent who's insisted on talking on the phone w/ their kid on a day when the staff forbid it. Her own parents had to view her through one way glass when they insisted on "seeing" her. Or was that Amanda? Sorry, I can't recall offhand. Perri also acknowledges wittnessing violent take downs, but thinks they were allways justified. They're not. We know this. In this country you have to be convicted of some sort of crime before anyone is allowed to physically lock you down, including parents.

And we all know what happens to most kids who get "expelled" from CCM.

The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451524934/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>O'Brien, the apparatchik

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-04 10:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"no informed choice of treatment if you are a child!"

Legally, even children are entitled to withhold consent. Ethically, obviously children are entitled to withhold consent.

But again, we're not talking about objective, science and fact based diagnosis and proven safe and effective treatment. We're talking about anyone gullible enough to fall for the "Signs of _____" check list.

I often enourage people to call those hotlines or fill out those forms and describe a kid who they know and who obviously doesn't need or deserve lock down BM. So far, I haven't heard back from a single one who says the kid in question got a clean bill of health. In their warped world view, every kid needs a little BM. And it isn't just the money, either. They truely and honestly believe it. But then, they belive in magical underwear, too.  :roll:

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein

[Anonymous]

I think it would be prudent to ask Perri exactly how she felt.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-05-04 12:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I think it would be prudent to ask Perri exactly how she felt."

I have no personal effect on anything that happens to Perri, so while I wish her well, as I wish anyone well who is basically a stranger and almost everyone who is not.

Because I have no effect on her, I don't really care how she felt.  I wish her well, but how she felt is irrelevant to me, and irrelevant to the feelings of others.

She considers it not child neglect to deprive a kid of *shoes*.  Her justification was, "It's not like we didn't have anything on our feet" and I think she said they didn't get outside much.

Well, not getting outside much is *also* child neglect.  Kids need fresh air and sunshine and room to run and play, and lots of it.  It's not a privilege, it's something they need to grow up healthy.

And another adult who was in Cross Creek as a kid has said that what they had on their feet instead of shoes was socks or thin slippers.

But Perri doesn't consider depriving a kid of shoes to be child neglect.

Anybody who is playing with a full deck, as a citizen of the US of A, considers purposely depriving a kid of having shoes on the grounds that shoes are a privilege to be earned to be absofuckinglutely outrageous child neglect worthy of removing the child.  And most people playing with a full deck would advocate not only child removal, but criminal prosecution, if someone had the resources to get a kid shoes or had someone else buy the kid shoes and wilfully deprived the kid of shoes for weeks or months at a time saying the kid had not "earned" them.

My conclusion is and has to be that Perri and the others like her who think this is okay are not, as of right now, playing with a full deck.

She was forcibly indoctrinated into a cult that demands its members, many involuntary, not play with a full deck in exactly that fashion.

So I remind myself frequently not to blame her for not having a full deck to play with.

But the fact remains that Perri demonstrably wouldn't know child neglect if it bit her on the ass, and so her vehement assurances that she neither was abused or neglected nor witnessed abuse or neglect are entirely worthless.

*Perri* herself is not worthless.

But her assurances about the absence of child abuse or neglect *are* worthless.

Because she demonstrably doesn't know it when she sees it.

And if you think it's okay and not child neglect to wilfully deprive a kid of shoes and define shoes as a privilege, then you're not playing with a full deck, either.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

I'd like to challenge all WWASPS cheerleaders to go to a party with *no* program people present at all.

Pick a room with as many people in it as can all hear you and answer the question without being too disturbed by your asking them a question.

Ask the following question and ask for a show of hands for people who think, "Yes."

"If you, yourself, were to take away your child's shoes for weeks or months at a time as a punishment, and not let the child have shoes until, after weeks or months of good behavior, you felt the child had earned them, and the Child Welfare authorities found out about it, do you believe the Child Welfare authorities would consider that abusive or neglectful, either one, behavior on your part?"

Go to any Unitarian Church on a Sunday---I picked them because they have a "Joys and Concerns" time when anyone can stand up and say anything.  Ask the question and ask for a show of hands.  I'll bet all of the adults will raise their hands.

Pick any other large gathering of all non-Program adults except for you.  Practically every hand is going to go up.

Do it.  Go find non-Program adults and ask the question.

Consider it your "community standards" reality check.

I'll tell you right now your reality check is going to bounce.

Timoclea

[Perriga?d]

You people just don't get it. I CHOSE to go to CCM with my behavior. If I wasn't such a bad teen, and hadn't put my parents through hell I wouldnt of had to go. I CHOSE to go with my own actions. Kids all around the world are starving to death at this very moment. IN North Korea, parents are letting their kids starve all around them. We have it much better in America, and I am glad to support such a great program as WWASP. I hope everyone sends their child there. Go search "Teen Help" and take the quiz on behalf of your teen. You will see, they need to go!

I'm telling you first hand. I was a teenager not too long ago. I was such a bad girl, I'm surprised I made it alive to CCM. Thank GOD they took me in and saved me. If it wasn't for them I don't know where I'd be right now. I for SURE would have been dead or in jail. I was a horrible teen, of course I would have been dead or in jail!

Stop calling me brainwashed. I've seen the movie manchurian candidate, I know what brainwashing is. Nobody tied me up and used a computer to brainwash me, you guys are all crazy. It is YOU who are brainwashed. You are all brainwahsed by other programs... who are jelous of WWASP's success! I can't believe you all can be so naive. If WWASP was so bad, why would they be allowed to operate still? We live in a country of laws. You are all so stupid.

Don't you get it it yet? I was AT Cross Creek. I was THERE! I NEVER saw any abuse, and was never abused. Therefore, we can reasonably deduct that no abuse occurs. I turned out so good. I am HAPPY! I have lots of money. I have peace of mind. Do you? I doubt it, filling these forums with hate for the program. It doesn't make any sense. You should go to a Discovery seminar or something and figure your shit out!

I'm tired of arguing with you people. I just hope you know you all are wrong, and I am right. I will defend WWASP until I die, and nothing will change that. I love WWASP. I am a Loving, passionate, caring young woman.