The Horror's of Dundee Ranch in May 2003

[Anonymous]

Dundee student,

Would you please elaborate on the HOBOS for staff.

Dundee had Hobos to teach the kids? Am I reading the correctly?

Were they competent? Costa Ricans?

[Kiwi]

Chris

I am assuming those anon posts were from you.  Am I right?  Could you please remember to log in?  It can get very confusing otherwise.  Thank you.

[Kiwi]

Being restrained consisted of lying on your stomach with your arms folded up towards your shoulderblades as someone sat on you

How long did this last?  I'm trying to get a picture: how far were your arms folded to the shoulder blades?  Was this done to hurt or to restrain within the normal meaning of the word?  If the latter then in what sense was it a punishment?  We have heard reports of children's shoulders being dislocated.  Can you shed any light on this?

[Christopher Riner]

I don't think I did a very good job of explaining the whole environment of being restrained.  It wasn't like the kids stood around and did nothing to get restrained.  The closer and closer the child got to losing it, the closer and closer he got to becoming restrained.  Kids would start to slam their heads on the floor and stuff...and walls.  I know one kid who nearly knocked himself out cold.  Restraining someone can be pretty tricky (gotta say I'm quite the worm myself when I'm pissed to the point of being violent).  There was an ever-going search for competent staff- I would honestly say that the most competent were the jamaicans, even though everyone kind of has them thought out to be the true sadists of the whole thing.  They definitely used the idea of de-escalation, though- especially in large groups like at the talent shows and stuff.

[Christopher Riner]

oh, and another important thing- I think I know of the person that you are talking about who dislocated his shoulder.  He was in and out of o.p. and worksheets for about a year, and one time in o.p. he went around telling everyone that his shoulder blade was dislocated.  A few months after the incident, I remember talking to him and having him tell me that he lied to eveyrone to make it sound a lot worse.... that is the only incident that I know of for a fact, if there is another similar story then the kid didn't say it (which isn't very likely because our friends in there were the closest things we had beside memories of home), maybe on the girls side, I dunno.  I don't know of any incidents that I can put my word on to say that are true.

[Anonymous]

Chris - Did You Know ....

"National standards that restrict the use of restraint and seclusion apply only to psychiatric treatment faciltities that receive federal funding. They do not effect the use of R/S policies and procedures in schools, wilderness camps, jails or prisons." Restraint and involuntary seclusion have no therapeutic value and should only be imposed to ensure the physical safety of a patient.  They cannot be used as punishment or for staff convenience."

Source: NAMI
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/CA1.html

[Cleopatra2U]

On 2004-02-25 14:34:00, Christopher Riner wrote:

"The closer and closer the child got to losing it, the closer and closer he got to becoming restrained."

I am not familiar with Dundee Ranch.  What things did they do there that would cause a child to "lose it"?

[Kiwi]

Chris

I don't mean to harp on about this but:

How long did this last? I'm trying to get a picture: how far were your arms folded to the shoulder blades? Was this done to hurt or to restrain within the normal meaning of the word?

I'm still trying to get a picture of exactly what restraint involves.  The descriptions I have heard are always very vague.  Perhaps it is difficult to describe.

Also (not my question but);:

Dundee had Hobos to teach the kids? Am I reading the correctly?

In Casa the students learn from workbooks and the only subject actually taught is Spanish.  Was it the same at Dundee?

[Christopher Riner]

Do you have stockholm syndrome or something?  I have not seen a single other person so worried about it as you.  I can't believe that you think there was all of this abuse and neglect in these schools, and at the top of your priorities is the frickin' mail policy.  I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but your logic is a little obscure, don't you think?  I just don't see how that's abuse.

[Christopher Riner]

They weren't used for "staff convenience," and I would bet my money to say that if they would have sat around and not touched the kid everytime one of us got in a fight, or started slamming our heads on walls, or ran through the girls dorm naked- then there would be a lot more problem now.  If kids who are known to push the limits are given a margin for error, they will take total advantage of it:  look at what happened when Vargas came to the school and total chaos broke out.  The only reason that the kids hadn't lost it before was because there was a system of consequences that the kids learned to respect-for the most part.  The day of the riots, there were people smashing computers and banging up cars and having big sexfests in the bushes- it was horrible, and all because people wanted to "protect" the kids.  Dundee might now have been federally funded, but I believe that it was by all means therapeutic.  Even though we all knew that we were in a hard-working envirnoment, what we learned in the program gave us everything we needed to get by.  A lot of people criticize what they teach in programs-- go to the self-help section of a library, and you will find what lies in the programs (my personal favorite is Wayne W. Dyer, I would suggest all you kooks out there read it- you'll learn to find peace with yourselves.)

[Anonymous]

Chris -

what could your parents have done for you (at an early age) to correct you and teach good choices then so that this extreme step was not taken later...

how will you parent your own children so that they can avoid this type of treatment?

[Christopher Riner]

Restrained would only last about 15 seconds, usually- with their arms behind their backs.  Not everytime a student was restrained did they even touch his arm.  Usually they pretty much just sat on us.  Sometimes kids would need to be sat on for at least a half an hour just to calm down, though.  I never had my arms pulled up all the way to my shoulder blades.

The teachers weren't hobos.  The hobos were the ones like the kitchen staff, the maintanance staff, the worksheet staff (who only needed to sit and watch kids write).  The teachers had degrees and were certified, but there weren't many- we didn't need many, most of us enjoyed working at our own pace because we were able to advance in school.  We learned from the same books that I used in the U.S.- and my credits transferred over to Virginia Tech.  There was at least one teacher in every department, and those who didn't want to work at their own pace or had a hard time doing it would sign up for tutors.  Peer tutoring was also a really good system (that really works) that we used all of the time.  The way that we learned in Dundee really set me up for college:  in highschool you can get by with passing on the tests; in college you have to know the stuff.  It was hard for me making the transition to self study (which was the only option the first month I was there, when the school was still really new) but I am glad that I did it.  We can all live an easy life and get by if we want to, but there is only one road for ANYONE to take if they want to achieve personal greatness:  through the school of hard knocks.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2004-02-26 06:46:00, Christopher Riner wrote:

"Restrained would only last about 15 seconds, usually- with their arms behind their backs.  Not everytime a student was restrained did they even touch his arm.  Usually they pretty much just sat on us.  Sometimes kids would need to be sat on for at least a half an hour just to calm down, though.  I never had my arms pulled up all the way to my shoulder blades.

I can't believe you actually find this type of 'treatment' acceptable under ANY circumstances.  



 

We can all live an easy life and get by if we want to, but there is only one road for ANYONE to take if they want to achieve personal greatness:  through the school of hard knocks. "

Ginger has a quote in here that fits perfectly, don't know who said it, tried to find it but couldn't.  "That which does not kill us makes us stronger, but I never really needed to be this strong."  

The only voluntary urine sample they'll get from me is a taste test
--Bumper Sticker

[Anonymous]

Chris, the folks asking the questions and/or or posting information relevant to the topic (or sub-topic) at hand are not kooks.  For the most part, they are people who appear to have a different opinion based on their own first-hand experience, expectations and demands.  Others, myself included, have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of parent and teen relationships and how programs work (or don't work) to "bring families back together", a term that is used in virtually all sales and marketing materials by educational consultants, independent referral agents and program/school websites.  From reading your posts, it's clear you are of the belief that these programs facilitate "family healing" while at the same time conceding the program is not for everybody.  By saying this, you are more or less validating the argument of parents and teens who claim these programs not only "missed the mark" but in fact, crossed the line.

[Anonymous]

Chris, I have to wonder at the 'soft' description you give of restraint. I have not ever seen or herd it described as anything less than very painful; of significant duration; and often for Extremely minor actions on the students part.
Many students, my own son included, speak of the stress and anxiety caused by hearing other students being restrained - b/c they cry and scream and beg for it to stop.
My son was restrained while in OP for requesting a bathroom break. Yes, he kept asking after they said no (a non working choice, apparently) on the third request, he was put under restraint.
He has not mentioned if they at any point let him go to the restroom. He has not mentioned if he pissed himself. A lot of kids do mentioned how frequently hapless students wet themselves due to not being allowed to take a restroom break. I suppose this might explain why so many complain of the OP room smelling of urine. But, I don't know if my son suffered this degradation or not. If so, its one of the things he is keeping to himself. In any case, Why do they refuse a kid a restroom break? And How can the request amount to the need for restraint?
I find this unexceptable. Cruel even. Purposefully humiliating.
Please don't try to tell me nothing like this ever happened. My son has no reason what so ever to lie about it; The many other boys I've talked to, have no reason what so ever, to lie to me about it. It did happen and frenquently; to many kids.
Do you really think restraint of this nature is exceptable?