The Horror's of Dundee Ranch in May 2003

[Anonymous]

Last year while my child was having his teeth cleaned, he needed to leave before it was done.  The person in the next room was moaning and groaning from the dental work that was being performed on him.

My son was white and sick looking  when I picked him up. He told me the other patient sounded like the kids being restraint at TB.

The noise serverly impacted his day. Many of his days.

He use to write home that he was feeling stressed from the sound coming from the kids screaming from restraint.Apparently it occured close by.
A constant reminder one could be next.

When I had questioned staff, they stated I was being manipulated by my lying teen who only wanted me to bring him home.I only wish I had brought him home sooner.

Chris tell it to someone who does'nt know any better.

[Anonymous]

Anon, why don't you ask your son to tell you verbatim what happened to him?  I don't understand the reluctance of parents to probe their kids for specifics on issues like these and others (e.g. consequences for masturbation).  It may be uncomfortable to broach the subject but so is talking to your kids about sex, drugs and rock n' roll.  As a matter of fact, I think many kids find themselves in these programs because parents DON'T TALK TO THEM about the important issues until it is too late and the kid is already in trouble.  Kids make mistakes, but they do learn from them, and probably more so than they do their successes.  Parents need to be candid with their kids, have an open-door policy.  It is the only way to ensure their kids will feel comfortable talking to them about issues that are important to THEM.  How many parents really try to relate to their kids on their (the kid's) level?  I'm not talking about being their best friend, kids don't want that, they want their parents to be parents.  And they want boundaries, no matter what they tell you.  Sure, they will TEST THEM and most likely, push the envelope as far as they can.  Heavy drug use?  Promiscuous Sex?  Chronic school truancy?  These are serious issues that alert parents their kids' need help to get them back on track.  A process that for most kids does not necessitate sending them away for 2+ years.  That is just a cop-out.  A way for parents to get out of their responsibility to go through adolescence WITH THEIR CHILDREN, not some program.  

 :flame:

[Anonymous]

You have made a valid point that is no doubt often the case.
I don't think it applies to me and my son; but maybe I'm wrong.
I do try to get him talking, and keep him talking; And when ever he does feel like talking I drop whatever I'm doing and pay attention.
He doesn?t want to be interrogated though and has told me so. He has told me he doesn?t want to talk about it. So, I leave him alone until he does and then lesson well.
If I push, he clams up. Always has. Its just how he is. Its better to let him bring things up when he feels inclined and let him say as much as he is comfortable with for the moment.
So, that?s why I don't know some things it seems like I should. Its not that I don't ask questions; I just don't always get an answer and I don't push.
Under the circumstances, I don't feel like I should push. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Deborah]

Anon,
I understand and appreciate where you're coming from with your son. I think you are doing the respectful thing.

One of my sons was required to divulge the horrid details in the discovery process for a lawsuit. I always acknowledged his feelings, "Hey, I know this is hard to talk about, but, we have to talk about it."
He has not told his dad anything, to this day. Neither of the boys have.

They have experienced so much disrespect and disregard for privacy that if you do push too hard, he may confuse you with them, on some level, if you know what I mean. My son wanted to forget about it. Talking about it brought up feelings of humiliation and stirred the suppressed rage he felt toward those who abused him on a daily basis.

The most heart wrenching was watching him wrestle with sorting out the confusion he came away with. Some aspect of his life wouldn't be going well and he'd blame himself. For many years he was unable to see how the abuse he endured affected him and his day-to-day life. The most challenging: insomnia, substance abuse, assuming everything was his fault, not knowing who he could trust, and over reacting to any perceived disrespect with rage. There were many times when I got the brunt of that rage. It was sometimes hard to remember that he wasn't really angry at me, but showing me the depth of the hurt they inflicted on him.

It was difficult to get him to therapy sessions. On the weeks he skipped out, I'd go and the therapist would advise me on how to work with him since I was about the only person he would talk to. Many nights til 1 or 2 am. And like you, I put everything aside when he requested time and listened more than I talked.

It takes time to sort it out. Their time, not ours.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand the reluctance of parents to probe their kids for specifics on issues like these and others (e.g. consequences for masturbation).  It may be uncomfortable to broach the subject but so is talking to your kids about sex, drugs and rock n' roll.

I think it's pretty plain that this Anonymous poster is thinking about an entirely different situation in her suggestion of talking to your kid about "hard times".  Yes, this is an admirable goal, and goes a long ways to ensure that parents and teens are able to talk about problems and work them out.  

However, we on this board are not speaking of "pussy-footing" around sensitive matters between kids and their folks.  I perceive a lot of people here "pussy-footing" around the traumatic, disastrous, gut-wrenching experience their kids have had in a private prison.  By pushing for an in-depth personal conversation, is the adult really trying to open up closed doors and facilitate communication?  I don't think so.  Pushing into private thoughts dredges up memories that disturb, promotes nightmares, delays the healing process.  

Let the kids tell you on their own schedule.

[Anonymous]

Christopher, btw, the 3-4 times taking LSD makes you "legally insane" is an old hippie myth.  If that were true, no one who'd taken acid could be punished for anything, since they'd get off on the insanity defense!!! Two, that would mean that if you take acid 3-4 times, you can no longer tell right from wrong.  Which is completely absurd.

Were you physically dependent on heroin?  Did you inject it?  How often?  How frequently did you smoke crack?  How did you pay for and obtain these drugs?

I'm curious because it sounds like you may be one of the few people who went to a WWASP program who actually had a real drug problem.  

Regarding Stockholm syndrome, you don't seem to understand what that means.  It doesn't cause people to invent stories of abusive conditions:  it causes them to love their captors and minimize their abuses.

Regarding the idea that tough treatment is necessary to get to the top, ever hear of George W. Bush?  Not that I personally think he should rightfully be there, but it's simply not true that only people who have been through really tough times make it big.  In fact, the people who have been through the worst of things are often stunted by their experience and do not achieve as much as they would have done if they didn't have to spend so much time recovering from the toughness.  Poor people often are far less healthy than rich people, even though they've been through far more struggle.  Sure, there are plenty who totally overcome and most people are resilient, but I wouldn't credit the Nazis for any post-Holocaust successes of survivors, nor the slavemasters for the post-slavery triumphs of ex-slaves.  Hard times may make people strong, but those who inflict them on others via rules like no looking to the side online, restraint for not following orders, meaningless essays, etc. are no heroes.

And, regarding independent study, I'd be curious to know how effective that was for science and math.  It seems to me it would be impossible to prepare for college level calculus or physics without teachers.  It also seems that learning writing and critical thinking skills would be impossible in an environment of multiple choice and correct/incorrect answers.

[Anonymous]

Any parent that suspects their child has been maltreaed should seek professional advice on how to appropriately deal with the situation in a TIMELY manner.  While I understand why parents would not want to "pressure" a child into expressing their private thoughts and feelings,I'm noticing that many parents come forward with allegations of maltreatment MONTHS and even YEARS after the fact. Why?  Did the child *internalize* their thoughts and feelings?  Was the child "too scared" to confide in anyone, even their own parent? Does the child ultimately blame themselves?  Was the parent WAITING for the right moment?  These are just some questions that come to mind.

[Anonymous]

Anon,
As much as I appreciate your input for parents to talk to thier kids etc. I wish was that simple.If only it was so simple.

In our situation my child would walk out of his sessions with his theraphist. When ever his behavior issues ,school,drugs,disrespect,truancy etc were being discussed he would walk away. It was a difficult time.In retrospect considering what happened after se sought help,I would do it differently. Maybe I would not have done anything at all .I would have allowed natural consequences take place. If he got kicked out of school,so be it.  He didnt make it to Harvard anyway.

Never the less what he experienced with the "quaility care" we sent him do was not the answer for him.

He came home traumatized which took months for me to understand why.

I wish it was as simple as you imply.

[Anonymous]

Anon writes:

Pushing into private thoughts dredges up memories that disturb, promotes nightmares, delays the healing process.

----
That's nuts! You don't know how your kid feels, because you haven't asked.  ASK! Don't assume.  Second, if they are dealing with disturbing, nightmarish thoughts and feelings, all the more reason to seek a therapist or psychologist to help them sort out their issues, before they start self-medicating to "get through the day/night".  Honestly, it makes more sense to help kids verbalize their thoughts and feelings than suppress them. Get creative!  Find a way to get the dialogue going.  Trust me, your child will be grateful for the "gentle push".

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-26 16:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Any parent that suspects their child has been maltreaed should seek professional advice on how to appropriately deal with the situation in a TIMELY manner.

Did that.  Sought advice in TIMELY manner.  Professional advice was...duh...wait for them to tell you in their own time.

[Anonymous]

Anon, don't take this wrong, but it sounds to me like the therapist/psychologist didn't know what they were talking about, or perhaps, misjudged the situation.  Have you seen this list of guidelines and suggestions from ISAC on what to do with a child who is in or just got out of an abusive RTC?  I still think it is best not to wait too long to get some dialogue going with your child, though I certainly do understand your reluctance to open up a potential can of worms. My own philosophy is time does heal all wounds, but not necessarily for the best.

http://isaccorp.com/documents/nowwhat.pdf

[Deborah]

I agree,generally. And I asked some pretty hard questions and gave many gentle pushes. I noticed a relaxed relief when he would finally divulged something that happened and I didn't over react. He did not want sympathy. Usually information and to be believed. He needed my reaction to be matter of fact. No emotion or anger. I vented that stuff with someone else. I'm guessing that he would have felt the need to take care of MY feelings otherwise, and that's not his role. He had forgotten a lot in just a year. There are still memories coming back to him after 5.5 years and the lawsuit settled.

But, if the parent is too uncomfortable giving those "gentle pushes" it can be a real mess. Anon Mom, if you really want to persue this but your gut says NO, you might consider going to a counselor yourself and get some help with your discomfort FIRST. Could be the guilt you feel for having sent him there to begin with. (I don't know, just guessing) Anyway, once you are comfortable and can listen cleanly (no guilt/sympathy) and not over react, he might seek you out to talk to.

I have no doubt there are things that my son hasn't spoken. Six months of daily torture is alot to recount. And some kids (my other son) were in for much longer, some for years!

[Kiwi]

Have you seen this list of guidelines and suggestions from ISAC on what to do with a child who is in or just got out of an abusive RTC? I still think it is best not to wait too long to get some dialogue going with your child, though I certainly do understand your reluctance to open up a potential can of worms

The document you refer to also says, "If you believe that your child was abused and will not talk about it, give them time."

Seems to be the consensus of opinion.

[Anonymous]

How much time?

[Anonymous]

People seem to forget "program" kids have been conditioned to think and act in accordance to strict rules and enforced discipline for many months, even years.  The child who comes home is not the same child court or "mommy" ordered into a restrictive, custodial, and therefore potentially abusive residential treatment facility, school or program.  Time does heal wounds, but kids who have internalized feelings of anger, shame, and/or guilt will find it hard to speak of their pain to their parents, or anybody else.  Parents should be proactive and not lulled into a "wait and see" mode.  Talking with an adolescent psychologist to ascertain what parents can do to best help their child POST program is an excellent idea.  Too much time can have an adverse effect.