Author Topic: The Horror's of Dundee Ranch in May 2003  (Read 14626 times)

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Offline Kiwi

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The Horror's of Dundee Ranch in May 2003
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2004, 11:33:00 AM »
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How much time?


IMHO the child should determine that.  They may well have had their fill of gratuitous "help" from adults.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2004, 11:55:00 AM »
What if the child is having suicidal ideations? Should parents just wait until the child does something to WAKE THEM UP to the reality of their inner pain?  Kids who are at-risk of suicide following their exit from a program don't exactly where a sign around their neck saying HELP ME.

Parents should not waste time pussy-footing around.  Kids who want to talk will talk.  Kids who CAN NOT talk, need a compassionate, well-trained professional to help them work through their thoughts and feelings so they CAN TALK.  

Go back and read LOST BOY in the Rocky Mountain News and then talk to me.

 :smokin:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2004, 11:57:00 AM »
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On 2004-02-27 08:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What if the child is having suicidal ideations? Should parents just wait until the child does something to WAKE THEM UP to the reality of their inner pain?  Kids who are at-risk of suicide following their exit from a program don't exactly where a sign around their neck saying HELP ME.



Parents should not waste time pussy-footing around.  Kids who want to talk will talk.  Kids who CAN NOT talk, need a compassionate, well-trained professional to help them work through their thoughts and feelings so they CAN TALK.  



Go back and read LOST BOY in the Rocky Mountain News and then talk to me.



 :smokin: "


Sorry for the typo. That's wear (not where).
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2004, 12:01:00 PM »
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Offline Anonymous

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The Horror's of Dundee Ranch in May 2003
« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2004, 12:16:00 PM »
Everyone has offered wise ,intelligent suggestions. Thank you.

I had spoken with at least five different professionals on this subject after the kid came home. Most said to allow him to express his story at his own time. Stay open to hear his  need to share. Counselors at school helped too.


The most productive improveemnt has come from seeking legal justice. At one time he felt they could never be held accountable. His knowing there are powerful people helping to hold the bad guys accountable has helped.

The onslaught from staff telling the kids you have no consitutional rights,your parents don't want you home and so forth really took its toll.

Justice will prevail. I pray he continues to move forward.

My experience has been, many professionals find it difficult to understand how this can happen .
How in our country such blantant abuse, deceit has continued.How this has been allowed to happen. When I have shared they are incredulous,but not necssasarily surprised.

We have our work cut out for us to share our truth and knowledge of the Teen Help Industry.To make huge changes to protect our families, our children.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2004, 12:16:00 PM »
Oh my, what a great but tragic story.

If nothing else, this paragraph is very telling about the dogmatic illogical attitude of program parents. Even after blowing his head off, this was her comment...

"Corey had snapped as he and Laura discussed implementing one of Teen Help's latest practices ? removing kids from their homes if they didn't follow a strict behavior contract.

Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier."

So, as I understand it, Her son, while discussing the program, blows his head off right in front of her and then she still thanks the program for preventing his possible earlier death?

Fucking dangerous idiots, program parents can be.....
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2004, 01:02:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-02-27 09:16:00, GregFL wrote:

"Oh my, what a great but tragic story.



If nothing else, this paragraph is very telling about the dogmatic illogical attitude of program parents. Even after blowing his head off, this was her comment...



"Corey had snapped as he and Laura discussed implementing one of Teen Help's latest practices ? removing kids from their homes if they didn't follow a strict behavior contract.



Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier."



So, as I understand it, Her son, while discussing the program, blows his head off right in front of her and then she still thanks the program for preventing his possible earlier death?



Fucking dangerous idiots, program parents can be.....





"


Yup, I personally know of one kid who seriously thought about taking his own life after he got out of a program.  No one to talk to, except God, who apparently was listening in and told him to put the gun down.  What a miracle!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #97 on: February 27, 2004, 01:45:00 PM »
From my experince there were many similar stories in the Source as well on the BBS .The tragic stories perpetuated the NEED to stay committed
to Graduate the Program.  It did for me.The fear of the worse was shoved in our faces constantly.

I find myself wondering how the Exit plan can assist with the goal of "Whole and Healthy Familys."  These children have no hope if their parents are major brain washed control freaks.

Cory is in a better place.
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Offline Christopher Riner

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« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2004, 03:09:00 PM »
Noone can be legally punished (for the drug)because they cannot prove they have induced LSD into their system; spinal taps are the only possible way to detect the acid and are illegal (to my understanding).  

I had never injected heroin- heroin is actually the drug I have done the least.  I started out smoking crank once or twice a week in the ninth grade (after pot and trying acid in the eighth grade), and after about six months had moved up to every other day.  My friends and I would steal money from our parents almost every day, and also pawn stuff for money, or sell drugs to kids who didn't know how much they were supposed to get or something.  Before long we had our own little enterprising system of keeping a steady income of drugs, and had moved up to doing grams of cocaine a day.  I was introduced to glass (methamphetamine), and knew someone who would get tons of it (not literally) to sell, and he would always give me some for selling it for him.  I never injected this, either; I usually smoked it.  After a while I started doing something called "hotrails", where I would use a blow torch to heat up a glass tube, and then sniff a "line" through the glass tube.  What it did, was melt the drug as it went up the tube, and it would hit your nasal passage as a boiling hot liquid- but the heat would cook it and also cause it to smoke, so you inhaled smoke during the process (smoking cased your buzz to increase the fastest- the actice drugs go directly from your lungs into your blood stream carried on hemoglobins with the oxygen).  It was painful, but strangely addictive.  

You are right, I have no idea what stockholm syndrome means.  I didn't think that it caused you to lie about abuse though.  So are you saying it like creates a defense mechanism to care about your "captors" so you don't get abused by them?

"Regarding the idea that tough treatment is necessary to get to the top, ever hear of George W. Bush? Not that I personally think he should rightfully be there, but it's simply not true that only people who have been through really tough times make it big. In fact, the people who have been through the worst of things are often stunted by their experience and do not achieve as much as they would have done if they didn't have to spend so much time recovering from the toughness-"

I took this from your message.  I suggest you read Wayne W. Dyers line of books.  How well we manage our emotions, and how long it takes to deal with them, is entirely up to us.  I believe in it.  I think we all can be stronger once we have fallen, and learned to pick ourselves up.

As far as the independent study went- like I said, it was a lot harder for the first month or so not having any instruction.  Right now I am a sophomore and an engineering major, but I am applying to have my major switched to biochemistry.  I have taken multi-variable calculus (four semesters of calc total), two years of physics, organic chemistry, applied statistics... I think that the time when I learn and understand the MOST of what I am studying, is when I take the book home, and go through and study it.  At dundee, it took most of us a while (even kids who were bright and excelled academically) to adjust to self study, but we always had a teacher that we could go to if we needed any assistance.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2004, 04:57:00 PM »
Sorry, Christopher, you can't test for LSD via spinal taps:  another myth!!!  The test would never have gotten human approval because it would be too risky to study for such a trivial purpose in the first place and wouldn't pass the IRB!!!

It's conceivable that in some cases there might be some remnants there, but because the drug is effective in micrograms (not mililiters, btw!!) (microgram = 1 millionth of a gram, milligram:  1000th, ml are measures of fluid and LSD isn't typically sold these days in solution and you'd have to know the concentration for an ml measure to have meaning), there isn't much that goes into the body and brain in the first place, so there's not much to stick around years later to be tested for.

Ordinary LSD dosing starts at about 100 micrograms-- most drugs, like say, cocaine, are only potent in the milligram and up range.  This is why they show up more easily on drug tests.

The legally insane thing is just that:  a myth, there's no evidence for it.  The only way to find some would be to test people who claim they have taken LSD on their knowledge of right and wrong (which is a difficult thing to measure, to be sure, given the range of human values) and compare their responses to those who say they haven't.  The only differences you'd probably find are in their views about drugs-- given that those who have taken them tend to have at least at one time been more liberal in their views of whether this is right or wrong than those who "just say no."
If you think I'm wrong, try searching the medical literature-- the only stuff you'll find about this is in pop culture.

All drug users think they are drug experts-- but they only know what they have been told by other drug users who know just as little unless they actually look at the research!

Regarding independent study:  it sounds like you are a smart kid who works well with self-directed learning, but there are many, many kids who cannot learn math or science or even English that way.

And regarding WWASP's value in general:  the only way to know if more people are helped or harmed is to do actual randomized outcome studies.  When these have been done on similar programs, they haven't been found effective.  Compassionate treatment has better outcomes both in terms of recovery rates and in terms of side effects on those who don't get clean immediately.

The book you suggest is simply one person's perspective:  it can't tell you anything but what that one person thinks.  The only thing that can say more is controlled research:  which is why modern medicine has the successes that it does and
medicine that doesn't rely on the scientific method doesn't.

WWASP is essentially the laetrile (a cancer drug, which had thousands of advocates and hundreds of positive anecdotes but that didn't actually work when controlled research was done.  it turned out, in fact, to contain toxic substances) of the teen treatment field.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2004, 05:36:00 PM »
Chris you write:
You are right, I have no idea what Stockholm syndrome means. I didn't think that it caused you to lie about abuse though. So are you saying it like creates a defense mechanism to care about your "captors" so you don't get abused by them?

No, Stockholm makes you identify with and care about your abuser; even when they are abusing you.
Patty Hurst gets mentioned a lot. I wonder if it might not have been a factor in Jones Town and Waco; and other cultic situations.
Following is a perfect example of it.

http://store.aetv.com/html/search/index ... in+the+box



       
Search On: the girl in the box      
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American Justice: The Girl In The Box       
Hear from the woman who was held captive for seven years, and the man who claims her she was a voluntary prisoner. 1 Volume Set. 50 Minutes. Availability: 7-10 days       
             
      $29.95  CC
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2004, 06:51:00 PM »
yeah, I remember now that LSD is in micrograms, but all the scientific jargon aside- I have eaten acid between 15-20 times.  I don't consider myself insane, however every night before I go to bed, I can sit and stare long enough and shadows will start moving.  Curtains, sometimes.  I have a hard time telling if it is from a close by air-vent or if it is just a hallucination.  I have a friend who's brother ate acid one time and is now 30 years old and living with his parents recieving disability checks because of it.  The matter at hand was kids having access to this by putting it on the corners of papers.  

As far as the purchasing of LSD goes- you can say all you want about how us ex-drug users think we know everything about drugs, but how much acid have you bought in your days?  Acid ALWAYS comes in solution; whether you buy blotter paper, sugar cubes, or geltabs, it all comes from the chemist as a liquid (maybe not the actual d-lysergic din a vile, and is dropped onto some of these things.  And btw, we have both been slightly inaccuracte about the dosage:  for clarification, it is used in micrograms/mililiter-- usually between 100 micrograms and 1000 micrograms, or 1 milligram per litre (depending on how diluted it was by the time you got it).

I suggest you look at what you said about judging between right and wrong (and how it is hard to discern, based on values), and apply it to your thoughts about the programs.  Maybe some parents WANT that kind of discipline for their kids.  Maybe to their VALUES that is what they are looking to find; I personally disbelieve in doing away with programs, I am sorry.  I totally understand you wanting all of the treachery to end and whatever, but I don't think that shutting them down is the key.  I think that a better understanding of where the kids are going before they are sent there, and closer relations between the program and social services would solve this whole mess.
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Offline Cayo Hueso

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« Reply #102 on: February 27, 2004, 06:55:00 PM »
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On 2004-02-27 15:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I totally understand you wanting all of the treachery to end and whatever, but I don't think that shutting them down is the key."


Maybe not the 'key', but it's a DAMN good start!

Every act of a delegated authority, contrary to the tenor of the commission under which it is exercised, is void. No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid. To deny this, would be to affirm, that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers, may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid."
--Alexander Hamilton    

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t. Pete Straight
early 80s

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #103 on: February 27, 2004, 07:25:00 PM »
Hey Chris, I took acid over 100 times myself and was a daily heroin injector for quite a few years-- but haven't used drugs since the 80's and certainly don't consider myself insane.  No flashbacks either. Am a very successful professional, and know hundreds of others like myself.  

And yes LSD *originates* in solution, which is why I wrote what I did about concentration.  And I had the dose right:  started at 100 micrograms, exactly as I posted.

Re: right from wrong.   While it's hard to devise a test that would be value-neutral enough to determine whether people know right from wrong cross-culturally (for example, you'd get a lot of disagreement about gay marriage) so you could do former LSD-takers v. others on morality, I do think there are certain universals and am not a cultural relativist.

To wit:

murder
torture
genital mutilation of children

Always wrong.

It may well be that some parents want the kind of discipline for their kids that WWASP provides.  But they aren't allowed to do it themselves or it's labelled child abuse.  Why should an institution be permitted to do so?

Also, you are right that the key is to determine who really needs treatment:  as you know from your own experience, no diagnosis is needed to wind up in WWASP and often times, parents simply send away pain in the backside kids, not kids with genuine problems like yourself.

I do believe the answer is regulation:  but under any sane regulatory scheme, WWASP would be shut down.  That doesn't mean that there can't be affordable residential treatment for teens with serious drug problems or mental illness.  It means that it must be done compassionately and with checks and balances.

This also doesn't mean that compassionate treatment can't deal with tough issues:  it just does so in a way that doesn't make them worse.

Ie, let's look at why you might be having sexual experiences that you later regret...

Not: let's dress you up as a hooker and have all the boys yell whore, slut, etc. at you.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #104 on: February 27, 2004, 07:58:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-02-27 14:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Chris you write:

You are right, I have no idea what Stockholm syndrome means. I didn't think that it caused you to lie about abuse though. So are you saying it like creates a defense mechanism to care about your "captors" so you don't get abused by them?



No, Stockholm makes you identify with and care about your abuser; even when they are abusing you.

Patty Hurst gets mentioned a lot. I wonder if it might not have been a factor in Jones Town and Waco; and other cultic situations.

Following is a perfect example of it.



http://store.aetv.com/html/search/index ... in+the+box







       

Search On: the girl in the box      

Sort this list :         Bestsellers    Alphabetical    Price       

                  



Results: 1 Items    1 - 1      

Pages: 1       

       

       



            

American Justice: The Girl In The Box       

Hear from the woman who was held captive for seven years, and the man who claims her she was a voluntary prisoner. 1 Volume Set. 50 Minutes. Availability: 7-10 days       

             

      $29.95  CC       

            





"


For God Sake, Anon! It's Patty Hearst (not Hurst).

 :silly:
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