The Horror's of Dundee Ranch in May 2003

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-23 18:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Playing the Devil's Advocate here ... in the spirit of trying to make some sense outta all this:



Isn't it at least understandable that upper level kids would be indifferent b/c they most likely endured the same consequences, sometimes multiple times, and after awhile came to view this miserable experience as necessary (not justified) for their own "turnaround"?



Isn't it HIGHLY probably that upper level kids after being in a program long enough come to view themselves as superior to the new phases, who have not "paid their dues" (read suffered) as long as they have? That showing compassion could be read as a weakness?  A sign that they have not truly INTERNALIZED the program's values and beliefs?



Wouldn't most kids, if given the chance, quit the program and get the hell outta dodge, if they knew their parents would not hold it against them?



Kids are not born sadists.  But power is intoxicating.  Those who abuse their power and become sadistic are truly the damaged ones.



"

God, my key strokes suck. Paragraph 3 should read "Isn't it HIGHLY probable (not probably) ...

Also, it occured to me after I had already hit the "say-it" button that to demonize these children who abuse their power is completely wrong ... "for they know not what they have done".  So many times on other forums (like VOY) I have read statements written by kids to other kids (mostly graduates) full of disgust and hatred.  Please, if there is anything to learn from all this, it is that forgiveness is divine.  Hatred is the devil's work.  Don't go there!!

[Christopher Riner]

As far as upper levels and lower levels go:  I definitely know for a fact that 90 percent of the lower level kids considered upper levels nazi's.  There were pros and cons to this; a lot of kids felt like they were being held back by other kids and it wasn't fair, but at the same time were able to learn a lot.  The universe is the most brutal of teachers, but the best.  Sometimes in life, unconscious mistakes like forgetting to pay bills or something can land you in jail- a pretty harsh consequence.  Someone who was a member of society would not be allowed to simply roam about doing whatever they want: smashing windows, spitting in people's faces, not paying bills...they would be taken out of society and placed in jail.  The program was no different; I can understand a lot of parents feeling very uncomfortable with how strict the rules were, but it gave us a all the chance we needed to grow up- which some people won't do until they are forced to.  I am living on my own now, and I know that if I avoid doing what I need to do, or if I get tickets or fines then I am ONLY HOLDING MYSELF BACK- I am not going to be able to weasel my way out of the consequences.  I learned this from the program.  It made sense to me before, but I hadn't learned it yet.

[Christopher Riner]

On another note regarding the mail policy:  no, I am not a psychologist, but I have read many self help books (in the program), and my mom has a master's degree in psychology from UVA (not a doctorate), and she thinks you're kinda crazy.  I mean, maybe this Stockholm syndrome is a lot more serious than everyone else seems to think, or maybe you just don't quite realize how the mail system worked...it really wasn't all that bad.  Plus, I knew of cases where kids had plans of having their friends at home put LSD on the corners of letters and mailing it to them.... I may not be a psychologist, but I sure as hell know what d-lysergic acid diethylamide-25 (LSD)does to you-- it post-synaptically antagonizes the 5Ht-2 receptors during neurotransmissions (wrote a paper on it for biochemistry).  After more than 25 mililiters has been ingested, you are clinically classified as insane- that can be 3 or 4 uses.  Directly inducing a chemical into your nervous system sounds a lot more dangerous than not letting kids write to their old friends.  And if you were to try and have the old friends drug-tested:  buena suerte (good luck).  I was supposed to have blood work done on me tons of times in the past, but I would run away if I had to because I always thought I was going to get drug tested.  Truth is, some kid isn't going to take a drug test he knows he will fail just so that his friend can write him.  People can get along without you when you aren't in the program.  I am not sure if that plan would work for more than 3% of the people using it.

[Christopher Riner]

To answer the booger (you spell it differently) question, if a kid were to wipe a booger from his nose, he would not be consequented UNLESS he was in line structure, where we weren't allowed to look to the sides or move or anything.  Once you became an upper level, you were no longer required to stay in line structure when it was time to go to the next thing on schedule.  If a kid wiped a booger on someone else, then he would probably recieve a CAT 2 (out of five CATegories) for disrespect to peers or something, in which case he would have 25 points deducted (we earned about 20 points a day), and if he did not have 25 points to cover it would have to write a 3,000 word essay- but the staff in worksheets (worksheets is the term for the room you wrote your essays in) was usually someone who spoke little to no English, and so we could all get away with writing whatever- I stuck to prepositional phrases, and I could have 3000 words pumped out in less than 45 minutes..."if for go to the but if be it then not to go for me if I were to show what I were....." you get the picture.  Probably not the best way for me to learn from my consequence, but the time in the room alone was enough to make me think about it.  If a kid were already in worksheets and he wiped a booger, then he would probably have like 1000 words added, or would get a check: three checks equals going to o.p. for an hour (the room where they sat and were restrained) but not to be restrained.  If they were in o.p. and they did it, they would get another hour in o.p.  If they continued to do it non-stop in o.p., then they might get restrained after a while, but I doubt it.  The maximum time you could pull in o.p. by one consequence was 5 hours:  one hour per day.  Sometimes kids would be in there for longer, because they could recieve additional hours based on behavior.  I was restrained a couple of times in the beginning when I was there:  I got into a fight with a kid on the basketball court one time, and once for trying to choke a staff because he wouldn't let me go to sick bed.  A lot of the kids there were really spoiled, and had never truly been "parented," and so they would not respond to consequences well at all- I was one of them (not to say I don't love my parents and htink they didn't raise me right).  It was up to the program to try and interrupt the behavior that the kids learned would work for them (like refusing), and I personally don't think that it is quite possible to do that without the the person experiencing SOME TYPE OF INCONVENIENCE or something.  Sometimes kids were forced to lay face down, with their heads resting on their chins, and after a while they would have big red marks on their chins for about a half an hour, and that always looked like it sucked- the mark would go away in five minutes, but I never agreed with making kids lay on their face, if they would agree to do it:  that shows that they were willing to cooperate, and were close to ready to leave o.p.

[Anonymous]

Christopher,

my goodness sit back and re- read what you just wrote..you'd get in trouble for wiping your nose-over a days worth of points lost?- that's incredible! How did that prepare you for the real world?

sorry that your parents didn't give you what you needed at a young age..I hope you will receive a  suggestion to look deep into these practices before becoming a parent yourself...for the sake of your children to be- and for the boy still inside of you.

You could've made it to adulthood w/o these extreme tactics- please,please do some research on good parenting - try Positive Discipline (a book) and Adlerian principles...parenting with respect...your children will deserve it even if you didn't get it.

there is a right and wrong way to treat humans and to parent young treasures (like yourself)..truly hope that you allow YOUR children someday to wipe their noses- good parents do!

[Anonymous]

Maybe these parents should raise their children from an early age (say kindergarten) as little "cadets" instead of little kids.  Perhaps that would help them get through adolescence more efficiently and more respectfully.  On the booger issue, are kids given kleenex or a hankerchief to use during the day as they shuffle back and forth from one activity to the next?  Seems to me each kid should have something in their pocket to appropriately dispose of nose waste.

 :silly:

[Anonymous]

Hi Chris.
I did as you requested, and asked my son if he knew you. He says he did, and that you seemed like a good guy.
Thats all he had to say about you; but he has had a lot to say about circumstances at Dundee that differ a good deal from your perspective. It must be a level thing.

[Deborah]

Point of clarification for those who may have jumped in this thread midway-

The booger issue is not about kids being able to blow their noses or not. Although it's interesting that some actually considered it as a possibility. It's about guys wiping boogers on people in order to be sent to OP, where Chris said they laid around all day on towels to avoid going to school. That comment is back a ways if you care to read it.

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-02-24 18:30 ]

[Kiwi]

Chris

I was restrained a couple of times in the beginning when I was there

What did this consist of?

Sometimes kids were forced to lay face down, with their heads resting on their chins

What if they refused?

[ This Message was edited by: Kiwi on 2004-02-25 04:25 ]

[Anonymous]

I don't think it's so much a level thing as it is a state of mind thing.  I was a lower level for 9 months, and I had to sleep in the batcaves (except they didn't have fans when I was a lower level) and take showers in the shower room, and not move my feet when I sat down and all that jazz, also.  In fact, most of the staff that were fired because they didn't think they were adequate for the job, were the hobos they picked up early on.  The truth is, level or not, we all viewed Dundee differently- that doesn't mean that we all didn't go through the same thing.  

As far as parenting goes- I was not trying to say that my parents missed out on a single thing when I was growing up.  My mom has a Master's degree in psychology from the university of Virginia, and has worked with elementary school kids as a guidance counselor for over 25 years.  She has has always shown me love and support, and I would honestly bet money to say that my parents are THE BEST PARENTS IN THE ENTIRE WORLD; they would keel over and die, if they knew that it would help out me and my future.  They pretty much kill themselves everyday sending me through college after they spent my savings on the program.  The technique that they used that I was referring to, was that whenever it came time for me to make a decision, they would ALWAYS leave the final say up to me.  The same applied at Dundee- we sat down and had a talk about me going there, and I was all for it (of course I had no idea what it was, exactly, despite how many times they tried telling me).  I think that the way they raised me was remarkable- I am a very contributing member of society:  I volunteer at hospitals, just donated blood last month (I'm ab(-) for those of you who know about it), I go around to schools and speak at spanish classes because I am bilingual, I am excelling in school...I think the main reason that my parents sent me to Dundee was because I was getting more and more distant to them every day.  They knew that I was growing up into the man I was going to be for the rest of my life, and they were just hoping I would make the right decisions.  Turns out, even though I was doing alright in school, I was also doing heroin, cocaine, crack, glass, meth, crank, ANY pharmaceutical drug that I could get my hands on....in the end, after the program, I am now much closer to my parents and away from drugs, and I am the one that pulled myself out- not without support.  I disagree with the statement that there is a right and wrong way to parent.  10 sets of parents can raise ten kids totally differently, and they can all grow up to be loving compassionate members of society.

[Anonymous]

Being restrained consisted of lying on your stomach with your arms folded up towards your shoulderblades as someone sat on you.  They would do this if you were refusing to follow directions:  say you were told to lay on your stomach and put your head on your chin; after the first time, they would probably ask you again.  The second time, they might give you 3,000 more words onto your essay after you get out of o.p.  Then, they would probably add another hour onto o.p. (a kid can get to the last result pretty quickly, if he was being a real asshole) and finally, (especially if the kid was cussing and not calming down) they were restrained.  A lot of days went by where noone was restrained.  They weren't allowed to take their towel in there every day, but o.p. was usually a pretty relaxing place.  A lot of times kids would run laps around the pool or sweeping sidewalks and stuff.

[Anonymous]

Chris only:

Clarification question:  "THEY" wouldn't restrain you if you were refusingto follow directions. What I'm reading is "THEY" would restrain you if you were a physical threat to someone or something (like a wall) or running away.   What sorts of things would you be restrained for.  It was for safety reasons, only, right?

[Deborah]

He said:
"They would do this if you were refusing to follow directions: say you were told to lay on your stomach and put your head on your chin; after the first time, they would probably ask you again. The second time, they might give you 3,000 more words onto your essay after you get out of o.p. Then, they would probably add another hour onto o.p. (a kid can get to the last result pretty quickly, if he was being a real asshole) and finally, (especially if the kid was cussing and not calming down) they were restrained."

Does that sound like restraint for SAFETY?
BTW Anon, how is someone a "physical threat to a WALL"? Just curious, since your perception is way different than mine.
Ever heard of de-escalation? Why isn't this technique used? I can only guess that it demonstrates respect for the other human- who is temporarily distressed and needs a hand back to the present- and goes against the "punishment works" philosophy.

[Froderik]

Spare the child, and spoil the rod. I have not sold myself to God!
-Patti Smith

[Anonymous]

A student shared their experience with me;

"Mr Staff in Jamaica had said he  "LIKED to retrain kids." Scary! Scary!

Inconsistency for sure.

How quickly would YOU had been put into retraint for calling a fellow "student" an asshole?