Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[Anonymous]

Good Point annon,

To go one step further, the WWASP seminars are about learning about your self and willing to listen and take feed back from other people's perscpective. Maybe some of the successfull parents get frustrated , however I think the vast majority are very open to what others think or feel and let them have their own experince. The successfull parents have experinced success and want to go were they can help other experince success.

[Anonymous]

Did you not see the Dr. Phil version of the seminars as shown on Oprah?  Same process, different people.  

Sworn to secrecy is only about the experience...why hurt someone else's experience by sharing your own?  Each person gets out of them what they want to.  Why ask what it's all about?  Anyone can walk out if they don't like what they are feeling. I will ask you to stop equating your son's experience at whatever program he was in with what wwasp is about.  They're not all the same - but I also know that you sharing your experience is important. Please just clarify you have no experience of wwasp.

[Antigen]

On 2004-01-03 17:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger - wwasp does not want to keep anyone out.  In fact, they've invited many to tour, to meet parents, graduates, attend seminars, etc.  Tim Weiner attended a support group and chose to not report anything that he saw and heard, other than "change is painful" as quoted by a mother.  WHen you youall get it that it's not some secret society hellbent on thinking "one" way, but families that know they are responsible for their choices and the consequences, either good or not?



I don't feel that wwasp has a bad reputation.  That bad reputation came from the media and a few parents that didn't get the desired results.  "

Uhhh... thanks. But I was refering to those private fora you keep mentioning.

And you are wrong about the media and a few parents creating this bad reputation for you. You simply reject all criticizm as false and tell yourself there is none. Buddy, you're washed, man! Snap out of it! ::bangin::

I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.

--Clarence Darrow

[Anonymous]

Yes, I have read some of his books and watch his show, he uses a lot of the seminar proccess and techniques that is why he is successful, because people are able to have a new experince and make changes in their lives.

[Anonymous]

"I'm confident that you believe this is true. But it is just not so. These people may be convinced that they're saving the kids' lives. But the kids lives are not usually in anywhere near the kind of danger outside of these programs as inside of them.

If you want longterm proof of efficacy or lack thereof, talk to us! That's why we hang out here so that we can tell you of our experience. As a group, Program survivors probably read a whole lot more friends' obituaries than any group under the age of about 75. And most of us are only in our thirties. Those olddruggiefriends they tried to convince us would be our undoing? They generally fall into the "other" category, where they won't start losing a lot of peers till they're much older."

Wheres the degrees? Where the scientific data? Wheres the experince?


 ::  ::  ::

[Antigen]

Deb, These two paragraphs interests me the most. I'm all about figuring out why these places are in demand these days.

On 2004-01-03 17:26:00, Deborah wrote:

Residential treatment is typically the last resort for over-stressed families. For example, children in this study also had emotional and behavioral disorders (EBD), conduct disorders and oppositional behaviors that further complicated their AD/HD symptoms. About one-third of the children in the study also had general anxiety, separation anxiety, or depression, or some combination of all three. Almost all of the participants came from low-income, single-parent families.

Wilmshurst theorizes that fear may have been a factor. "Removal from the home may have served to exacerbate existing levels of anxiety, resulting in excessive worry about their future, concern about past behavior, and a heightened awareness of the potential of removal again," she said. She also speculates that at least some of the difference may have been caused by interaction with other troubled children at the residential facility.

Yes, I would agree with those theries. Additionally, I can tell you from firsthand experience that fear of removal, fear of mysterious personality altering "treatments" and constant scrutiny and worry by the crazy adults can also contribute significantly to all of the symptoms these programs promise to cure.

It is a vicious circle.

The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188301123X/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>George Washington

[Anonymous]

Ginger - I don't reject the criticism, honestly.  Those that have a bad experience truly believe it, just like those that have a good experience believe it.  I think I said way back that humans work for this program.  Humans make mistakes. I personally can't say I believe that certain people were abused just because they said they were.  I know so many that have told me they were not abused, but again, it's heresay.  My relative was never hurt or brainwashed into thinking what they wanted him to think.  He had a choice!

[Antigen]

On 2004-01-03 17:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

Wheres the degrees? Where the scientific data? Wheres the experince?

Good question! Where are the degrees and scientific data showing that this treatment method is safe or effective?

Your insisting that I prove that the Program is unsafe and ineffective is just rediculous. You know very well I've not been in a WWASP program. However, I have read a lot of different accounts from a lot of different people, many of them very well credentialed, who tell me that it's neither safe nor beneficial. It seems to be very effective at slavemaking. That's about it.

When an innocent Californian millionaire gets killed by a drug squad
trying to seize his house with a bogus search warrant, people better ask themselves if they really want to turn their cops into money-makers.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder

[Anonymous]

Ginger - I hope you're not talking about well-credentialed people being on this board.  I think we're all just stating our experiences and knowledge.  From what I read from you, you're anti_ Dr. Phil, anti- Oprah, anti-Tony Robbins, or anyone that sees there's a whole lot more in the world outside of our little boxes.  Not one of these people tell us HOW to think, and if we don't think that way, then we're wrong.  You are not wrong in what you say.  It's valid to me, for whatever it's worth.  

I just don't see where I should discount a program that has thousands of people that have benefited in a positive way.  I'm supposed to fear wwasp because a few people on this board say I should?  

If you can weed out those that have an agenda against wwasp, just wwasp, then I might at least listen with an open heart.  So far, I've not been able to weed out those with the agenda.  Care to enlighten me?

[Antigen]

On 2004-01-03 18:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger - I hope you're not talking about well-credentialed people being on this board.  

You might actually be surprised at who some of our readers are. But I was really refering to some of the medical journal authors Deborah has quoted recently and to people like Singer and Lifton.

I think we're all just stating our experiences and knowledge.  From what I read from you, you're anti_ Dr. Phil, anti- Oprah, anti-Tony Robbins, or anyone that sees there's a whole lot more in the world outside of our little boxes.  

Well, you might define that group that way. I would define them as people who advocate for better living through dissolusion of our identities.

Not one of these people tell us HOW to think, and if we don't think that way, then we're wrong.  You are not wrong in what you say.  It's valid to me, for whatever it's worth.  

You're trippin', dude! That's exactly what all of these people do for a living.

I just don't see where I should discount a program that has thousands of people that have benefited in a positive way.  I'm supposed to fear wwasp because a few people on this board say I should?  

No. But you should not turn over your will to them. You should not trust and believe them unconditionally and without question. If 100 kids say they were tortured w/ physical pain, deprivation of basic physical necessities (such as adequate sleep) and in other, subtle ways, then you should not assume they're all making it up just becase the people selling the Program say they are.

If you can weed out those that have an agenda against wwasp, just wwasp, then I might at least listen with an open heart.  So far, I've not been able to weed out those with the agenda.  Care to enlighten me? "

Buddy, you've come to the right place. The only people around here who think WWASP is the only problem are those who are already under suit by them. All the rest of us pretty much agree that

1) These programs are not just examples of a good concept poorly implimented. The concept itself can be very harmful and tends to foster the kinds of abuses we're hearing about.

2) Not so many of us, but I think a growing number understand that the people who operate these programs believe in what they're doing. They're lying to themselves about it and believe that what they tell others is the truth. But most of them have never seriously examined the evidence. That's sort of frowned upon in Program culture.

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--

[Deborah]

Anon,
Answer this hypothetical question.
Would you continue to support the program if all the allegations of abuse/mistreatment were proven to be true?

Please don't respond with a question or with something irrelevant to the question. Just a yes or no will suffice.

I'm sure you're privy to the allegations, but in case you're not, I'd be happy to search around and compile a fairly comprehensive list. The point being, that you understand the question you are responding to.

[Anonymous]

Antigen wrote:"
No. But you should not turn over your will to them. You should not trust and believe them unconditionally and without question. If 100 kids say they were tortured w/ physical pain, deprivation of basic physical necessities (such as adequate sleep) and in other, subtle ways, then you should not assume they're all making it up just becase the people selling the Program say they are. "

Antigen - OMG!  Do you think we're all stupid parents that will blindly believe unconditionally, without question?  OMG! Again!

You are only seeing what you want to see. There's a lot of layers that you aren't seeing.  I never believed anyone unconditionally or without reservation, or questions - ever!  That included my own son, who I love with all my being, but was so blatant about mistruths, that I always made sure of what was truth and what was fiction.  I was never lied to be a staff person, not ever, and my son can back that up.  

What is sleep deprivation?  Shit, I was sleep deprived in a much worse way when he ran away and I didn't know where he was.  I lost sleep, lots of sleep because I cared enough about him to worry about him.  I don't for a minute think he was sleep deprived in his program.  Neither does he, other than wanting to sleep until noon.  When I was a teen, I spent summers with an aunt in the midwest, on a farm. I was up before dawn, raked horseshit, fed the animals, befoer I even ate breakfast, worked some more and was dog tired by noon, but I kept going - I was in bed by 9 pm, but not before I wrote in my diary.

It really is much the same in his program.  Not up before dawn, but by 6;30 am, full daily schedule, and time for reflection writing and writig home in the evenings.  Yes, I guess for a teen, that would be considered sleep deprived.  

Are you saying there are 100 kids on this forum saying they were tortured.  Direct me there please.  I see a few "parents" posting of their misery, which I can't say is fact or fiction.  I also can't see, like the other anon, who is from the PURE camp spouting their crap, and who is genuinely sincere.  

Do you resist change in all areas of your life?  I began to enjoy things I was afraid of when I tried on new things, new ways of thinking, getting out of the proverbial comfort zone.  FEAR (of change), the worst four letter word.  I don't choose to live in a world of "what if's" I choose to live in a world of "what's next?"

Please - just don't tell me how I should feel or think. There's a whole world of possibilities that are still waiting to be discovered.

[Anonymous]

Do you have custody?

BTW all they are is allegations, wheres the proof?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-03 22:18:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Anon,

Answer this hypothetical question.

Would you continue to support the program if all the allegations of abuse/mistreatment were proven to be true?



Please don't respond with a question or with something irrelevant to the question. Just a yes or no will suffice.



I'm sure you're privy to the allegations, but in case you're not, I'd be happy to search around and compile a fairly comprehensive list. The point being, that you understand the question you are responding to."

Deborah - I don't think this was for me, as I just came on here, but absolutely NOT.  I would not support the program if the allegations were true.  I agree with the "humans" thing.  If a staff person intentionally hurt a student, I would make sure they were fired, in whatever way I could.  I would not want to shut down the schools for the mistake of one person, however.  This is almost pointless to debate as at this point it's heresay, and most likely from a child or children with an agenda of wanting to get out from living with rules, or to get back to their "old life."  But maybe not.  I will not get sucked into he said/she said until something is absolutely proven in a court of law.  Just as clarificaiton, ALL of the BM's or RTC's have the kids saying the same things about them, don't lay it all on wwasp programs, please.

[Deborah]

There's not a thing in the world wrong with change. No one is arguing that. It's the method in which change comes about.
So you "chose" (in your terms) to be sleep deprived. Those who allege sleep deprivation did not choose it. It is forced upon them as part of the breaking down process.
Can you entertain the possibility that your son may have been one of the more "compliant" participants, therefore missed out on some of the specific abuses alleged by others?