Author Topic: Apologia - Serious debate only, please!  (Read 34240 times)

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2004, 07:57:00 PM »
Oh, and one question. I've heard that parents and students are often required, as part of their 'therapy' or seminar, to write letters like these. Anyone w/ firsthand experience able to confirm or refute that?

The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
-- Patrick Henry

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2004, 08:10:00 PM »
Success comes to those who are willing to make changes and work hard. Any one can be a critic, but it takes work, positive attitude to change. Be all you can be. :tup:
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2004, 08:11:00 PM »
I resent you advertising your program on this forum with that lengthy list of testimonials. It wasn't enough to post a link? If Scott, Tracey, Debbie, Joe, and the rest want to come here and share their stories, that's one thing. It's quiet another for an anon poster to put that up. This thread was for serious discussion and debate, not an invitation to advertise and recruit for an organization under the guise of discussion.

I'd like to see a poll on this one.
1) Leave the link. Delete the testimonials.
2) Delete the link and testimonials.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2004, 08:16:00 PM »
The successfull positive parents work on building bridges seeking to help other improve. I have seen many parents that have experinced success come to these boards, why do they not hang out here? They don't want to waste their time, they would rather build and enjoy more success, they would focus their energies on past broken relatinships and seek to restore, they do not hang out in blameville or gloomtown, they pro-active parents and teens who are seeking to do more. They know the same people will be here or another forum with the same issues years from now. These successfull people do not focus on the negative or complain about missed opertunites they look at the next opertunity and take advantage.

Cheers.   :grin:  :grin:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2004, 08:22:00 PM »
The reason I posted the magazine article link (I'm not the anon that posted testimonials) is that there is NO way to post a seminar experience.  The only way to know is to go yourself.  The information on each seminar is posted on the program website.  I wonder how many could actually see it for what it is: personal growth, not brainwashing.  You seem to think that the "program" is responsible for a person's change...WRONG.  Each person is responsibile for change, or not.  

Someone posted on losing a current identity as wrong.  That's pretty surfacy stuff.  No one will change their core, but change is a part of life.  Are you saying change is a bad thing?  What does that tell your children about change? No one is going to change unless they are truly open to it.  I've known people in my workplace that couldn't stand computers when they came in, now they barely remember what it was like before that..just a surfacy comparison.

Oprah rocks! If she started a "program" for kids, it would mirror wwasp...for sure.  That's an awesome thought!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2004, 08:25:00 PM »
Please, no flooding or spamming.

[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2004-01-03 17:34 ]
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #111 on: January 03, 2004, 08:26:00 PM »
I don't support the labeling of kids. What's significant about this study is the figures. It is an option for families who would rather keep their kids at home and I bet it would be more effective and less expensive.

http://additudemag.com/ourkids.asp?DEPT ... &SUB_NO=22
Excerpts:
Research published in the June 2002 issue of the journal Medical Health Services Research says that sending difficult children to a boarding school may not be as effective as keeping the family together and providing a family preservation program. Psychologist Linda A. Wilmshurst of Texas Woman's University compared children enrolled in a residential program with children who stayed at home.

Residential treatment is typically the last resort for over-stressed families. For example, children in this study also had emotional and behavioral disorders (EBD), conduct disorders and oppositional behaviors that further complicated their AD/HD symptoms. About one-third of the children in the study also had general anxiety, separation anxiety, or depression, or some combination of all three. Almost all of the participants came from low-income, single-parent families.

Almost two-thirds (63%) of the children who stayed with their families showed a reduction of clinical symptoms for AD/HD, general anxiety and depression. Only 11% of the children who participated in the residential program showed similar improvement.

Wilmshurst theorizes that fear may have been a factor. "Removal from the home may have served to exacerbate existing levels of anxiety, resulting in excessive worry about their future, concern about past behavior, and a heightened awareness of the potential of removal again," she said. She also speculates that at least some of the difference may have been caused by interaction with other troubled children at the residential facility.

Wilmshurst believes that behavioral treatment was beneficial for several reasons, including the fact that children and parents spent more time together and were given practical help from trained therapists. Previous research supports the use of cognitive or behavioral methods in the treatment of ADHD. Wilmshurst refers to the work of Russell Barkley, Ph.D. and others in her article. (See ADDitude's related article Parent Training Improves Teen Treatment Success for more on Barkley's research in this area.)

Families in the family preservation group received much more than the standard one hour per week of family counseling. For the study, therapists trained in family preservation offered treatment in the home and were available for the families 12 hours per day for a 12 week period. Treatment was targeted to specific problems. For example, if a parent was having difficulty managing a child at breakfast, the therapist would schedule a visit at that time to observe interactions and assist the parents in defining specific problem behaviors and suggesting alternatives. Unfortunately, such optimal treatment is not often the case in the real world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2004, 08:29:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-01-03 16:28:00, Anonymous wrote:




http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml

^explanation of the siminairs; a history lesson

http://www.rockypreps.com/desperate/sit ... ont-pg.htm

^Account of wwasp programs by RockyMt. News

http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html

hard hitting artical

http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymind ... lifton.htm

Thought Reform

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... ing19.html

"



These first articles seem to be from 1998/99.  ??

So it's okay to post links for things that are unrelated to wwasp programs, but Deborah wonders why something significant to the process is posted?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2004, 08:32:00 PM »
To the Anon posting testimonials. PLEASE begin a new topic.  I love reading the testimonials, but not on this particular thread.  Just a suggestion.  :wink:
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2004, 08:32:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-01-03 17:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

 The successfull positive parents work on building bridges seeking to help other improve. I have seen many parents that have experinced success come to these boards, why do they not hang out here?


They seem to get very upset and often abusive whenever people disagree with them. That's why TOUGHLOVE hategroop meetings and lists are always very private. It solves the problem of having people around who might question the authorized dogma.

Folks, that's the bigger reason, in my opinion, for the extream measures to keep outsiders out. It's not so much that they couldn't sweep a few things under the rug for the duration of the visit. It's that they don't want to remind the kids that there are other people w/ other ideas in the world.

Sacred cows make the best hamburger.  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'> Mark Twain

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #115 on: January 03, 2004, 08:33:00 PM »
Lets get real, majority of the people who enroll their son or daughter in a BMP allready are past the urgent state, they allready  tried sending their kid  to live with relatives, counselling, you name it. They are dealing with an epdemic, most people do not say "Oh my teen is acting up a little today, I think I will spend a couple of grand a month to help him" They are way past that point. They are dealing with an epedemic that is a matter of life or death.

We got a lot of experts here, I would like to see the sceintfic results of any of their theroies, or any of their degrees would be nice to see as well, or even a number of years of experince working with struggling teens.  :eek:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #116 on: January 03, 2004, 08:42:00 PM »
Ginger - wwasp does not want to keep anyone out.  In fact, they've invited many to tour, to meet parents, graduates, attend seminars, etc.  Tim Weiner attended a support group and chose to not report anything that he saw and heard, other than "change is painful" as quoted by a mother.  WHen you youall get it that it's not some secret society hellbent on thinking "one" way, but families that know they are responsible for their choices and the consequences, either good or not?

I don't feel that wwasp has a bad reputation.  That bad reputation came from the media and a few parents that didn't get the desired results.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #117 on: January 03, 2004, 08:42:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-01-03 16:57:00, Antigen wrote:

"Oh, and one question. I've heard that parents and students are often required, as part of their 'therapy' or seminar, to write letters like these. Anyone w/ firsthand experience able to confirm or refute that?

The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
-- Patrick Henry


"

In my Discovery seminar we were all given stationary to write letters of appreciation and were instructed to give them to the staffers and they would be sent collectively to the programs. We were to put our child's name and facility name at the top.  I also staffed Discovery with Bill and Focus with Joyce in the Spring of 2001. I handed out stationary at the Discovery seminar that I staffed for the same purpose and heard the same instructions. I still have my notes from the Focus I staffed and the following is on one of my notecards "collect letters first, check child's name & facility name".

I am not sure what the teens are required to do, but I know that one assignment at the parent seminars is to write a letter of appreciation. And any parent who has attended seminars knows how important homework is...

Judy
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #118 on: January 03, 2004, 08:44:00 PM »
I vote with Deb to delete the testimonials. I wanted to comment on that post, but she has put the objection far better than I could.

other anon:
Change is sometimes good; and sometimes not - wouldn't you say?

You posted a link and talked about how some people fight the Dissolving of their Identities; not working to change a bad habit.

Isn't it more to the point that you can't talk about Discovery, Focus ect b/c you have sworn not to?

You understand, by its very nature and purpose, the subjects/victims don't realize they are being brain washed, don't you?
You understand, once your identity has been dissolved, they can put in most anything they please - and you'll be delighted with the result.
This is a very dangerous little game your playing here - this Large Group Awareness Training; which is just a new age version of the Korean method of brain washing.

I agree with you that Oprah would probably just Love a tame version of Discovery; and I don't doubt "her" program would look a lot like what you Think "the Program" is; but as for the reality of the Program - No, I don't think she would approve; and she would probably want to throw a bunch of folks in jail.  She just loves  new age pop psychology (talk about shallow) but she don't care much for brutality and neglect.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #119 on: January 03, 2004, 08:45:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-01-03 17:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Lets get real, majority of the people who enroll their son or daughter in a BMP allready are past the urgent state, they allready  tried sending their kid  to live with relatives, counselling, you name it. They are dealing with an epdemic, most people do not say "Oh my teen is acting up a little today, I think I will spend a couple of grand a month to help him" They are way past that point. They are dealing with an epedemic that is a matter of life or death.

I'm confident that you believe this is true. But it is just not so. These people may be convinced that they're saving the kids' lives. But the kids lives are not usually in anywhere near the kind of danger outside of these programs as inside of them.

If you want longterm proof of efficacy or lack thereof, talk to us! That's why we hang out here so that we can tell you of our experience. As a group, Program survivors probably read a whole lot more friends' obituaries than any group under the age of about 75. And most of us are only in our thirties. Those olddruggiefriends they tried to convince us would be our undoing? They generally fall into the "other" category, where they won't start losing a lot of peers till they're much older.


Quote

We got a lot of experts here, I would like to see the sceintfic results of any of their theroies, or any of their degrees would be nice to see as well, or even a number of years of experince working with struggling teens.  :eek: "


No, since you're advocating this program and encouraging people to pay for it, why don't you show me the studies that prove it's safe and effective?

In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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