The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Whooter]

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".

Its not misleading if that is what happened to them.  How can it be?  If you were escorted than that is the fact.  If it felt different then the person can explain that but they shouldnt lie.

What if another survivor says he felt like he was abused in his program.  If after we speak to him he says he was forced to sit in a class room all day which to him "AS HE SEES IT" is abusive.  Would this then also have to be considered abuse?

If a guy says he was shot by a terrorist but it turns out to be a hunting accident.  Can he justify his lie by saying he felt terrorized and thought he was going to die?  The fact is that he was not shot by a terrorist.  The same as these kids, the fact is that they were escorted to their school.

A person cannot change the facts because of how they feel.  They can say they got hit by a bus when in fact they got hit by a bicycle just because it felt like a bus.

Spreading lies that you were kidnapped when in fact you were not is just wrong.  The same as if you were saying you were abused when in fact you were just forced to sit in a class room is lying also.



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[Anne Bonney]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

[Watchful Yeoman]

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".

Its not misleading if that is what happened to them.  How can it be?  If you were escorted than that is the fact.  If it felt different then the person can explain that but they shouldnt lie.

What if another survivor says he felt like he was abused in his program.  If after we speak to him he says he was forced to sit in a class room all day which to him "AS HE SEES IT" is abusive.  Would this then also have to be considered abuse?

If a guy says he was shot by a terrorist but it turns out to be a hunting accident.  Can he justify his lie by saying he felt terrorized and thought he was going to die?  The fact is that he was not shot by a terrorist.  The same as these kids, the fact is that they were escorted to their school.

A person cannot change the facts because of how they feel.  They can say they got hit by a bus when in fact they got hit by a bicycle just because it felt like a bus.

Spreading lies that you were kidnapped when in fact you were not is just wrong.  The same as if you were saying you were abused when in fact you were just forced to sit in a class room is lying also.



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Same as if you created a fake family in order to advance your agenda.  People, seriously, why do you humor the ultimate liar?

I fabricated a son

'Nuff said.  Nobody else here has ever been shown to be liar of this magnitude.  Not even  :shamrock: Li'l sidekick :shamrock: .

[Whooter]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.



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[Watchful Yeoman]

Why don't you "just be honest"?  You fabricated a whole family, man.  What's your need to lie?

[Anne Bonney]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.

Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.

To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

[Shadyacres]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.



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Why do professional kidnappers who work for programs feel the need to lie and call their services "escort services"?  They are armed, they are taking a minor away, by force, to a place where they will have no human rights and no recourse to the law.  I think this is the root of your misconception, Whooter.  You are believing the side that obviously has a vested financial interest in these programs maintaining a benign public image.  And, inexplicably, dismissing out of hand all the reports of abuse from people who have actually been through one of these places.  Why would you do that, I wonder?

[Whooter]

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.

I didnt say "Why did you lie about it?  I said:

... why lie about it?

But I will try to phrase things more carefully for you.

To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

I think the key to this (or one of them) is this statement "They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is."

So it really doesn't matter if it is fact or not.  They are stating what they believe it to be.  If someone pointed out to them that it was an escort service then would they still ignore the facts and report it as kidnapping?  I think the answer is "yes" to this.

Along the same line of thinking then would it also be okay to report something which occurred inside the program as abuse even though it was not abuse.  If the child thought cleaning their room was abusive then it is okay to tell everyone that they were abused by the program?  If a child never had to clean his room before then this very well may feel like abuse to him.



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[Froderik]

Lying is what Whooter does best.

[Anne Bonney]

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.

I didnt say "Why did you lie about it?  I said:

... why lie about it?

But I will try to phrase things more carefully for you.

To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

I think the key to this (or one of them) is this statement "They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is."

So it really doesn't matter if it is fact or not.  They are stating what they believe it to be.  If someone pointed out to them that it was an escort service then would they still ignore the facts and report it as kidnapping?

Just because they refer to themselves as an 'escort service' that doesn't meant that's what they actually do.  Do they provide hookers to the kids?

 I think the answer is "yes" to this.

If you're going to answer your own questions, why ask them?

Along the same line of thinking then would it also be okay to report something which occurred inside the program as abuse even though it was not abuse.  If the child thought cleaning their room was abusive then it is okay to tell everyone that they were abused by the program?  If a child never had to clean his room before then this very well may feel like abuse to him.

This is why I hate getting into discussions with you.  Your stupid analogies that have NOTHING to do with the subject at hand and your talent for spin make me dizzy.

[Whooter]

Why do professional kidnappers who work for programs feel the need to lie and call their services "escort services"?  They are armed, they are taking a minor away, by force, to a place where they will have no human rights and no recourse to the law.  I think this is the root of your misconception, Whooter.  You are believing the side that obviously has a vested financial interest in these programs maintaining a benign public image.  

I am not believing one side or the other, Shady.  I am just stating the facts.  Look up the escort sites.  Look for various amber alerts.  Are any of these agencies being investigated for kidnapping.  I haven't been able to find even one.   How many reported kidnappings in the united states end up with the kid in a program?  Where are all the reports and arrests?  Being kidnapped is a fantasy statement for many on fornits.  If you were really being truthful you would state that they were escorted to the program and then expand on it like..... the escort service was harsh and handcuffed me and forced me into their car etc.  But you dont do that, you need to try to deceive the reader.  Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really kidnapped then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story.  How could they?  How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.

And, inexplicably, dismissing out of hand all the reports of abuse from people who have actually been through one of these places.  Why would you do that, I wonder?

again you do this.  Where did I dismiss all reports of abuse.  See this is what you believe so it makes it factual to you.  I never stated That I dismiss all reports of abuse.



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[Watchful Yeoman]

you need to try to deceive the reader

No, you need to try to deceive the reader.  You are liar of the first magnitude.  You made up your whole family and story.  Your "credibility is zero," not the others who post here.

Did you forget this?

I fabricated a son

Only a whacko would make up shit like that.  You're crazy, man.  Your whole life is a lie.

[Shadyacres]

Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really who you claimed to be, then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story. How could they? How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.  


"whooter wrote:
I fabricated a son

I am done, I had enough of program toads when I was locked in one of those cesspits.  Kudos though Whooter, you are a champion liar and spin doctor, I can only imagine how many parents you have conned to get so good at this argument.

[Anne Bonney]

Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really who you claimed to be, then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story. How could they? How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.  


"whooter wrote:
I fabricated a son

I am done, I had enough of program toads when I was locked in one of those cesspits.

 :tup:   It's so tiresome.

 

Kudos though Whooter, you are a champion liar and spin doctor, I can only imagine how many parents you have conned to get so good at this argument.

He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief).  It's pretty much his profession to spin.

[Watchful Yeoman]

He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief). It's pretty much his profession to spin.

He's a program marketer.  That's the key.  No normal person unconnected to programs would spend over five years here trying to discredit people who were abused by programs.  It just fails the smell test.