Author Topic: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?  (Read 11329 times)

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Offline Whooter

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The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
« on: October 13, 2010, 06:01:21 PM »
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that some of the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.  I have always been curious as to why just being honest and telling the truth isnít sufficient enough.

In my opinion this just diminishes the credibility of the information being presented.  

If programs are truly abusive and posters here on fornits believe that then why lie?  Why not just write that you were abused in a program and explain what happened and by whom?  Why make up stories of being kidnapped and held in a prison, placed in isolation in a Gulag and brainwashed?  It is really easy to check the credibility of this.  I donít think one amber alert resulted in the capture of a teenager being located at a program nor a link to a report of a child being kidnapped.  Yet we read on fornits that this occurs everyday.

So why the lies?  Just curious.



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« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 03:03:30 PM by Whooter »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 06:06:47 PM »
We would expect a person who had a difficult stay in a program to describe it like this:

The place was like a prison, I met a few friends and the counselors were nice for the most part but there was this one counselor who was downright abusive. I did learn a few things about myself and am grateful for that but overall I think it was a waste of time. I wish I could have spent more time working on my writing instead of the group therapies which were a waste of time. The food was okay, but I would never want to go back.

Why do we hear it this way?

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Is it done for attention?  If someday a child really does get abused in a program how are they going to convince anyone here on fornits.  Everyone is so desensitized to these words that they really dont hold any meaning.



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Offline Whooter

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 06:38:02 PM »
To further explain my point (or question) if a person needs to call their program a Gulag and tell everyone they were kidnapped and brainwashed which we can agree are obvious exaggerations then how can we believe them when they say they were abused?  Where  can we differentiate between fact and fiction?  Where is the indication that abuse is not just part of the ongoing exaggeration?  Which part is true and which is false.



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Offline none-ya

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 08:19:36 PM »
How many times has this all been explained toyou and you still don't get it? I just wish there was some way  to put it  where the light bulb would finally light up over your head. But I guess you're never gonna' wake up.
BOOOO!!!
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Offline psy

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2010, 08:27:51 PM »
Your question is loaded, Whooter.  A better question might be: "Do survivors lie and if so, when and where?"  Ya see. I can't really find many specific examples of that.  Usually when a survivor is accused of lying his/her story is later confirmed.  Sometimes in court.  Who would believe the things that happened at Straight Inc. were it not substantiated by many different people.  Who would believe Cheryl Sudweeks at Whitmore would throw kids down stairs... but it was confirmed by the GAO and in court.  Such bizarre and over the top things have happened that it's difficult to discount even the most outrageous stories.  In Western Samoa at Paradise Cove, a boy's puppy was thrown off a cliff to it's death by staff.  That was witnessed by multiple people.  The french maid thing at MBA?  I know that happened because we had a nearly identical skit at Benchmark.

I'm sure some survivor somewhere has lied.  I'm sure some survivors have toned down their stories to make them more believable (and less realistic). I'm sure the opposite is true as well but you'd be hard pressed to find any concrete examples.  I'm speaking in hypotheticals here.  All that being said it has been proven time and time again that programs and their representatives lie, or at the very least stretch the truth.  Not to be prejudiced here, but the trend does tend to lean towards survivors when it comes to the truth.  When there is a profit motive there is much more incentive to lie.  That's not to say profit is a bad thing. It's to say parents should be aware that these programs are businesses first and foremost, are subject to very little if any meaningful oversight, and are very difficult for the untrained (or even trained) eye to judge.
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Offline Samara

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2010, 08:44:50 PM »
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2010, 09:18:44 PM »
I guess I am not being very clear.  Maybe everyone is so use to the exaggerations that they seem like normal talk.  Take the GAO for instance.  We have all read the words of the parents and Sen Miller.  If you scan the documents you will find that they never found one instance of a child being kidnapped and held in a gulag.  I donít recall any of the programs being cited for Brainwashing (unless I missed it).  But they did find kids to be abused in some of these facilities.

Why do we hear of all these kidnappings and Gulags, incarcerations and brainwashing here on fornits when the investigation could not find any sign of this?  Why do survivors here on fornits find a need to embellish their stories with these fantasies which do not exist in the real world?

If we read another story her on fornits that a person was kidnapped, taken to a Gulag where they were incarcerated, tortured and brainwashed what does that tell the reader?  Is it a plea for attention?  Or just added drama to try to communicate that the person didnít want to go to that program?  I understand that many kids are dramatic and exaggerate, but what if a kid comes along that really was abused and loaded up his story with these fantasy words.  How could we differentiate between what is real and what isnít?  How would we know that when he used the word abuse it wasnít just another exaggeration for being forced to do his homework, like kidnapped may mean the child was taken to the program unwillingly.

@ Samara, glad to see you are true to form and stand on the sidelines and just criticize others and derail the post instead of trying to discuss the issue.  You didnt seem to have a problem when the subject was pro-program people lying.  Are you starting to see why I take the position I have with you?  I feel I have been justified in how I have perceived you.  Do you know why people on fornits use kidnapping, Gulag etc. to describe things and events where no one else does?
Do you think you would be taken seriously if you walked into the local police station and said "I just escaped from the local Gulag where I have been incarcerated, tortured and brainwashed for 12 months.  My kidnappers are still on the loose."  Would you blame them for taking you back to the school thinking you need more help by the way you were mixing fantasy with reality?



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Offline psy

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2010, 09:51:18 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
I guess I am not being very clear.  Maybe everyone is so use to the exaggerations that they seem like normal talk.  Take the GAO for instance.  We have all read the words of the parents and Sen Miller.  If you scan the documents you will find that they never found one instance of a child being kidnapped and held in a gulag.

It's a metaphor.  Come on, Whooter.  We've been through this before.  Kidnapping is depriving a person of liberty without due process.  A Gulag is a facility where such people are kept.  They're descriptive terms that happen to fit.  Gulags were also used to "re-educate"  and brainwash people, which is more or less the same function which these programs provide.  And as far as kidnapping goes, what escorts do is probably legally exactly that.  It's just that they're never prosecuted.

Quote
I donít recall any of the programs being cited for Brainwashing.

Actually, Ken Stettler used that exact term in the GAO hearings to describe what programs do.  Sorry, Whooter, but whether you like it or not, that's what he said.
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Offline psy

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2010, 09:54:51 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
If we read another story her on fornits that a person was kidnapped, taken to a Gulag where they were incarcerated, tortured and brainwashed what does that tell the reader?  Is it a plea for attention?  Or just added drama to try to communicate that the person didnít want to go to that program?  I understand that many kids are dramatic and exaggerate

They're not exaggerations.  They're descriptive statements of opinion.  I, personally, avoid such language because of how it sounds and how most people interpret it, but I understand why those who have had negative experiences in programs choose to do so.  Just because you disagree with a person's opinion doesn't mean that they're lying.  It just means that your perspectives differ.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline none-ya

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2010, 10:22:22 PM »
If someone was dragged from their home in shackles in the middle of the night how could that not be described as kidnapping? Just 'cause it's a kid I guess. you could never get away with "transporting" an adult.
Not much of a lie or an exaggeration.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2010, 10:23:37 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
It's a metaphor.  Come on, Whooter.  We've been through this before.  Kidnapping is depriving a person of liberty without due process.  A Gulag is a facility where such people are kept.  They're descriptive terms that happen to fit.  Gulags in russia were also used to "re-educate" people, which is more or less the same function which these programs provide.

Kidnapping is illegal and if the person is caught they will spend time in jail.  The people who transport these children are not committing any crimes.  Gulags are in Russia as you mentioned used for re-education.  
Why not use the terms program or escort if the people are not trying to embellish their situation?  It communicates much easier to both fornits and non-fornits people.  Police officers can understand it better also.  I think if the kids were not trying to seek attention or exaggerate then they would use the correct terms.  That way if someone mentioned they were abused they may have some credibility.  Do you see what I mean?



Quote
Actually, Ken Stettler used that exact term in the GAO hearings to describe what programs do.  Sorry, Whooter, but whether you like it or not, that's what he said.

The issue isn't whether I like it or not. The issue is whether or not it is true.  He may have used the term.  But if they thought these places brainwashed kids then they would have been closed down that day.  Do you realize what real brain washing entails?  Even if a program tried to do this I couldnt possibly see how they could pull it off.
I was interested in this briefly when I was in highschool and I dont think the programs have an environment and personnel capable of achieving this level of thought control and re-education.  ( I am sure you can site an example, but I am talking about this happening today)

Maybe I am missing the point and brainwashing is being used as another metaphor.  This is what I mean, its confusing to figure out what is a metaphor and what is not.
If the same kid says that he was abused should we take that as a metaphor for something else, say being forced to study?

I think my point is that communication is all mucked up and its hard to tell what is real and what isnt.



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Offline Whooter

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2010, 10:29:26 PM »
Quote from: "none-ya"
If someone was dragged from their home in shackles in the middle of the night how could that not be described as kidnapping? Just 'cause it's a kid I guess. you could never get away with "transporting" an adult.
Not much of a lie or an exaggeration.

I can see the kid maybe thinking this at first.  But fairly quickly the child understands that it is an escort service.  they stop and get McDonalds, there is no ransom involved, no amber alert is initiated, and no one goes to jail for a crime.  I am sure the local law enforcement is aware of the activities.

If kidnapping did apply then these places would call themselves kidnapping services.

I think where many people may be getting confused is that is this was done to an adult then it would be considered kidnapping.  But the people would be put in jail for this because you need a persons consent.



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Offline Whooter

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2010, 10:36:22 PM »
Although it may appear that I set up this thread to bash people (survivors).  I really think this is an issue with credibility and if the language was brought more in line with everyday definitions then reports of abuse would be taken more seriously here on fornits and else where in my opinion.

By pointing this out I think changes would help the credibility of fornits.



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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2010, 10:51:37 PM »
Quote from: "Samara"
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.

According to who....?
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2010, 10:56:54 PM »
Quote from: "none-ya"
If someone was dragged from their home in shackles in the middle of the night how could that not be described as kidnapping? Just 'cause it's a kid I guess. you could never get away with "transporting" an adult.
Not much of a lie or an exaggeration.

Because if the child was threatening and tormenting his family to the point of they were seriously scared for their safety, then it is not kidnapping.
Hey, try this 2 cops walk in his bedroom snatch his butt drag him to the squad car throw his ass in the car and cart him off to jail. Is that kidnapping. No it is called going to jail, well call this going to a program.
Ya know not every story is a picture you have in your head.
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