The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Shadyacres]

Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.

Yes, and the word "escort" is a deliberate attempt to soften and hide the reality that these children are being "taken against their will".  In many cases they are just ASSUMED to be a danger to themselves or others.  What happened to innocent until proven guilty?


There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School.

I never said there was, my point was that they have taken words already in existence and used them to describe something reasonably new in this country, coercive thought reform facilities.  This is blatantly deceptive.

 BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.

OK, good point, I guess.  I was talking about the "wilderness survival camps".

Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself.

I never stop being angry at people like you and Whooter.

 This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.  

I reiterate;  I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program. I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts. The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility. This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago. The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public. They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).
So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do. Paid abductors would be better. Or just goons.

[Anne Bonney]

It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.

No, they don't count when you're being asked to back up something you've stated as fact.  Facebook, Myspace and Twitter are not examples of "proof" or "evidence".  

[Anne Bonney]

Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.

They're allowed to be taken without any proof whatsoever of them being a "danger" to anyone.

Do survivors lie and embellish.

Is that a question?  The answer is generally, no.  We don't have to.

[DKincaidCFS]

Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?

[Anne Bonney]

Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?

I think it's mostly program survivors.  There are a few ex-staff, a couple of program parents (both pro and con) and at least one EdCon I can think of.  Which category do you fall into?

[Shadyacres]

Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?

The vast majority of us are "program veterans" or "survivors", but one or two people here are obviously affiliated with programs and are trying to do damage control.  I hope you read this before the "gatekeeper" trashes it into the OFFA section.

[DKincaidCFS]

Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?

I think it's mostly program survivors.  There are a few ex-staff, a couple of program parents (both pro and con) and at least one EdCon I can think of.  Which category do you fall into?

I am doing some research into "programs" (for lack of a better term) and the people who attended them.

[Anne Bonney]

Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?

I think it's mostly program survivors.  There are a few ex-staff, a couple of program parents (both pro and con) and at least one EdCon I can think of.  Which category do you fall into?

I am doing some research into "programs" (for lack of a better term) and the people who attended them.

Have you had any exposure to them before this?  What sparked your interest?

[DKincaidCFS]

I have done extensive research into similar topics previously and I am now exploring this particular area to assess if it is meritorious of continued work geared ultimately toward publication.

[Anne Bonney]

I have done extensive research into similar topics previously and I am now exploring this particular area to assess if it is meritorious of continued work geared ultimately toward publication.

Great!  I hope you delve deeply into it.  Welcome.

[Ursus]

I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program.  I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts.  The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility.  This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
   These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago.  The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public.  They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions  ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).  
   So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do.  Paid abductors would be better.  Or just goons.  


noun |?es?kôrt|
a person, vehicle, ship, or aircraft, or a group of these, accompanying another for protection, security, or as a mark of rank : a police escort | he was driven away under armed escort.
• a man who accompanies a woman to a particular social event.
• a person, typically a woman, who may be hired to accompany someone socially : [as adj. ] an escort agency.
verb |i?skôrt| [ trans. ]
accompany (someone or something) somewhere, esp. for protection or security, or as a mark of rank : Shiona escorted Janice to the door | the shipment was escorted by armed patrol boats.
ORIGIN late 16th cent. (originally denoting a body of armed men escorting travelers): from French escorte (noun), escorter (verb), from Italian scorta, feminine past participle of scorgere ‘to conduct, guide,’ based on Latin ex- ‘out of’ + corrigere ‘set right’ (see correct ).


   Please note there is nothing in this definition about “accompanying people” against their will.  This industry has also co-opted the words “boarding school”,
“drug treatment center” and “boot camp” into their web of deceit and greed.  The facilities now bearing these names, where they forcibly re-educate captive teenagers in a manner that would be strikingly reminiscent to a POW from the Korean war, bear no resemblance to their original definitions.

Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.  

Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.

[Whooter]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

If a guy who was shot in a hunting accident feels he needs to tell everyone he was shot by a terrorist because "Hunting Accident" doesnt describe the way he truly felt when he was shot this would still be wrong and it would be lying.

Why not be truthful and tell everyone it was an escort Service and then describe how tough those guys are and how you felt being handcuffed was abusive?  Why lie about it is my question.



...

[Anne Bonney]

Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Ursus, you forget that we're dealing with LGAT mentality here (this isn't an attack either.  It's an observation that I fully believe is true).  Of course disagreeing is considered attacking.  In the LGAT world, you just do NOT question what you're told to think!  Those of us who've been in programs know exactly what happens if you do.

[Whooter]

Ursus, you were looking for examples of kids lying or embellishing their stories.  Just a quick scan of the database here on fornits brings up many examples.  Here are a few of them:

Link
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...

[Shadyacres]

Ursus, you were looking for examples of kids lying or embellishing their stories.  Just a quick scan of the database here on fornits brings up many examples.  Here are a few of them:

Link
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".