Well I can tell you as someone who has dealt with addiction, that it is a disease that lasts forever. There is no cure, and you never get over it. People that say otherwise are usually selling something, or have no experience with addiction themselves or with family members.
Well I can tell you as someone who has dealt with addiction, both personally and with family members, that it is not a disease and it does not have to last forever. That is a myth created to "keep coming back". The cure is to quit. If you can't quit alone, get some professional help not quackery that some Bella Donna and withdrawal induced whacko came up with in one of his "visions". Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob, the big book, 12 & 12 are treated as sacred. When anyone dares question the methods, the Stepcrafters go nuts and start attacking the people who dare to question them! Just like when someone questions the Scientologists. It's very similar and it does kill people.
I've been through many different forms of drug treatment, over the years. So far every single treatment center I've gone to had some form of AA meetings, and recovery ideas adopted within their treatment system.
Yup and they make a ton of money off of it.
The only facility I've been at that did not use AA in any way, is the private program I went to that has its own subforum here, they never mentioned anything related to AA even once. They actually believed in the ideology Psy tells people here, that we are all powerful people in charge of our choices, and being powerless is not an idea to embrace. According to the program we could choose to quit, and choose to be an addict or not. Now I have admitted that this program saved my life, and that's true, but I disagree with their philosophy about life being a series of choices.
Then no wonder you feel you need someone to tell you how to live your life.
Some things in our lives are and always be out of our control,
Yes, but it is up to us now we deal with those things.
like addiction.
You might feel that the addiction itself might not be a choice, but how you deal with it certainly is.
AA/NA and it's various groups are a large population of people, probably in the millions. Many different groups of people with various issues have adopted the AA model to form support groups for their own problems, more proof that many people think the AA model is effective for them.
No, that's not proof that it's effective.....its' proof that it's become popular.
The treatment centers I was in that adopted AA as part of their treatment program, were run by highly educated mental health professionals. Are we to believe that everyone from the treatment center employees, down to the person attending their community AA meeting is brainwashed, and part of a cult that works against their own interests?
Yes.
Common sense suggests that is highly unlikely.
Common sense tells us that humans are looking for "the answer". Just like snakeoil salesmen of the old days, AA swears they have it. Unfortunately Valliant's study proves that to be untrue and shows that AA actually raises the death level among alcoholics.
Perhaps AA/NA do work, and that is why treatment centers have invited them in, and so many different groups have decided to form their own version of anonymous support groups. Everytime a meeting occurs, people vote with their attendance, if AA did not help these people they would not show up, because they have no obligation to. Yet people continue to go. I've met people with 50 year sobriety chips, and I'd ask it's been so long why do you still come? They'd explain to me that they are still an alcoholic, and even 50 years later even one drink could lead them down the dark path that led them to AA in the first place. This supports the idea that addiction is a disease rather than a choice.
No, it doesn't. It supports the idea that humans are seeking "the answer" and will believe what they want or need to in order to get that answer.
The idea that drug or alcohol addiction is a choice, is nothing short of insulting. Addiction is a serious medical issue.
Then it should be dealt with by medical professionals, not the rantings of a certifiable lunatic like Bill Wilson who is so revered in "the rooms".
There are experiments using monkeys with drugs like cocaine, and given a choice of cocaine or food they choose to use cocaine and starve to death. Is that their "choice"?
Oh please!!! Their brains do not function cognitively the way ours do. Now you're just being ridiculous.
But what most people see is that the chemical changes the chemistry of the person to a degree, they make unhealthy choices to support their addiction, even if it costs them their own lives.
True, but that has nothing to do with AA.
Fornits posters think you should just ignore a person dealing with such serious addiction issues, and tell them "just quit, it's your choice".
No, what we've said is to seek real help, not the sham that is AA.
But other people like AA know it's a lot more complicated than that, and a long, long battle for some people, and choose to offer them a support group made up of people who also went through similar experiences. Only somebody who hasn't dealt with serious addiction could dismiss the life destroying cycle of addiction as a "choice", it simply is not accurate.
You keep saying that but you're completely wrong. There are plenty of us out here who have had damn serious drug problems and have successfully dealt with them without joining a cult-like group.
All of the people who willingly show up at AA/NA meetings going on across the country today, choose to go because something about AA works for them. Maybe you might not understand why, or how it works for them. But does that make you right, and them wrong? Is such a large group of people who willingly make that choice to attend a meeting, a cult?
There are millions of people attending Scientology. Just because they have large numbers does that mean they're not a cult?
No, of course not. But it's an easy way to dismiss what they are saying, and the hard reality that addiction is a serious disease.
That's
your reality.
Fornits, on the other hand, is a relatively minuscule population compared to amount of people participating in AA. I think everybody can accept that fact. The few people who make fornits a regular part of their lives, were abused or had negative experiences in programs as underage youths.
Yes, so why do you insist on coming here and trying to cram your version of "help" down our throats? We were already "helped" almost to death and we're a little sick of it.
Some of these programs used a warped version of AA that resembles nothing of the AA in the free world.
Since I've been in both an extremely abusive program and in AA for a number of years, I can say that they are very similar in nature but AA does it in a much more subtle way. If they came at the newcomers like programs do, people would be running out of "the rooms" in droves.
Fornits takes a extreme political position regarding treatment, in that many posters here think treatment in any form is wrong.
I don't think I've ever heard someone say that here. Can you point me to a link showing where someone did?
That is not a mainstream position.
You seem to be under the misguided notion that just because something is considered mainstream that it makes it right.
Go talk to regular everyday people who don't read fornits about AA, drug treatment centers, or teen programs. Most people actually support these kind of treatment options, and most people know somebody who went to AA, or had serious addiction issues like a friend of family member.
I do, quite frequently. And I get a lot of them saying that they're glad they've got some moral support but that AA gets a little too creepy and controlling for them so they go and find some real help.
Fornits is a political conversation. Nowhere else could somebody make such a long argument against AA and be considered mainstream other than the internet, I'm sorry but this is true. Most people see it as a legitimate organization.
There you go again with "mainstream = right" idea.
On fornits it's a world where all programs are conspiring to hurt as many teens as possible and AA is a cult brainwashing people with dangerous thoughts.
No, that's your view of Fornits. You don't like that people actually challenge the "mainstream" notion that AA is good, so you throw your tantrums. Daily. If it works for you, great.....keep going back but quit trying to shove it down our throats.
If I never experienced programs, or AA I might be inclined to believe it, people here make some good arguments to suggest so.
Yes, we do. We also cite sources to back up our claims in addition to our own anecdotal experiences, although those are outright dismissed by you guys.
But I know that reality is a lot different than fornits reality,
Your reality is different than a lot of people's reality. So what? Why do you still insist on cramming it down our throats? It doesn't work for us and we've found evidence as to why it creeped us out so badly. Why can't you let us have our own views on it?
and it's not so black and white as people here like to portray it. Good things happen in "bad" programs, we might not like to admit it, but it's true.
Sure....and I became a much stronger person after I was raped, but I'd rather not have gone thru the torture just to get a little stronger.
AA is good thing, I'm sorry but this is true.
That's
your truth.
I have yet to hear a reason why people here are so against AA, other than they think "it doesn't work".
Than, as I suspected, you haven't been paying attention. You don't like what we're saying, so you tune out the evidence we've provided for you.
So I am here to suggest that AA is not the cult.
Ok...you've suggested it. Can we move on now or are you going to continue to create thread after thread devoted to your beloved Stepcraft?
It is fornits, with it's extreme anti treatment opinions and agenda that is truly the cult. Fornits anti treatment ideology is based on a select number of experiences, reinforced with a forum designed to focus solely on these negative experiences.
"Fornits" isn't anything. It's a friggin message board.
When in reality, the people posting on fornits compared to the number who went to programs is relatively insignificant,
Then why do you bother devoting so much time to it?
people here take these limited number of experiences and use them to paint the entire industry with blood.
I know it makes you feel better to believe that our experiences are 'limited'....then you can dismiss them instead of actually trying to learn something.
Who can oppose treatment the most? This is where Aa comes in, it's not related to the troubled teen industry in any way.
Now I know you're delusional. You've said yourself that the wonderful people of AA/NA would devote their precious time to come in and indoctrinate, errr, talk to the kids.
Yet because it represents a form of treatment, something this forum is against, then it too must be condemned and intellectual arguments made to support this must be constructed.
You really don't read much of what we write, do you?
In the end though, it doesn't matter that fornits opposes AA, they will survive and thrive like they always have.
Again, then why do you devote thread after thread to the worship of Bill Wilson and his brand of quackery?
Fornits on the other hand seems to be getting slower over time, and less people are comfortable with the extremist anti treatment ideology here.
It's a friggin message board for people who were abused in programs to talk. That's it. You're trying to make it something it's not and then arguing against your fictional version of it.
AA is based on openness, and helping people. Fornits is now based on censoring and threatening inconvenient opinions, and telling people what to think. You can say whatever you want in an AA meeting and people will listen and not challenge you.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Unlike fornits is you dare suggest you had a positive experience in a program, you will be trolled with disgusting pictures, called a liar and be presented with countless conspiracy theories about "who you really are".
As Psy has pointed out to you, it happens here all the time. On the one hand y'all say that Fornits is insignificant, but on the other hand you guys go to the extremes of pretending to be program vets to counter what we're saying. If Fornits were so insignificant, you wouldn't bother...but you do, day after day after day in thread after thread after thread.
Fornits is paranoid, close minded and has an ideology built on the faulty foundation of generalizations and self centerednes.
Fornits is a goddamned message board, nothing more.
AA is exactly the opposite, they are open,
Sure they are. :lala:
and has an ideology built upon the foundation of the experiences of many alcoholics and addicts that collectively make up the organization.
They have an ideology built upon the rantings of a crazy man using Bella Donna and going thru extreme alcohol withdrawal.
Imagine you are an alcoholic/ addict. You might have made choices the first few times you used, but eventually you lost control and you finally had the realization about what people meant when they say addiction is a disease. You lose your job, your family, your house, all because you can't stop using. Then someone comes up and offers you help. Come to our group of people who went through what you did, and we will listen and not judge you. We want to help you recover and regain the life you had once before. They offer you help, a sober living place, and phone number to call when you feel like using, and tell you can call 24/7. These people who didn't know you, help you after your family and everybody else you knew dismissed you as a problematic alcoholic/addict. How would that make you feel?
Wonderful. It does feel great, in the beginning. That's how they start the indoctrination process. Later on, the control over your life starts and AA shows its true self.
But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?
Shitty, but sometimes reality sucks. If fact, quite often it sucks but it doesn't make it any less true. AA gives people a reason not to take personal responsibility for their actions.
If you can empathize with someone truly suffering from addiction, what option of help would you choose? Which would be more helpful to you, as a person? The answer is why fornits will remain a small, extremist cult of ideas, and AA will remain a successful, large community supported organization .
So you ask a question, don't wait for an answer and then slam Fornits for what you assume the answer would be. Nice.
Because one is true, and helpful. The other is insulting, and not helpful.
Where did you ever get the idea that Fornits is in the business of addiction therapy?
But lucky for us fornits is just a discussion forum, and the extremist rhetoric posted on this forum has no impact on the real world of AA and the people who choose to attend. There is a small group of people who post here who think that AA is a bad organization and should be avoided. But there are millions who make up meetings across the world every day, and as a silent majority they are not represented in fornits reality. But let's look at the big picture, AA will be around for a long time to come. Fornits? Probably not so much.
You keep saying that....a lot. But, again, you're here starting countless threads devoted to blasting the evil, yet impotent Fornits. You're a strange bird.
