What if AA is mainstream and Fornits is the cult?

[Anne Bonney]

So it's fine that Psy starts a thread about AA, or Botched starts several. But when I introduce a well thought out argument about why AA is mainstream and fornits is considered extreme end of the treatment political spectrum, suddenly it's spam.

There's a difference between posting a few AA threads and the sheer amount of them that you start.

When you start condemning people for posting disgusting pictures, or their own AA threads, or all the other bullshit that gets posted here I might just take you a little bit more seriously.

Quite frankly, I could give a damn if you take me seriously or not.

But it's obvious that you are the one who is here to start an argument, and unload your AA hatred.

Nope, just spreading what I believe is the truth.  I've seen the damage AA has done personally, both to myself and to some people that I love dearly.

If you think I am spamming this forum, the best action for you to take would be to ignore me. Not to spend so much time chopping up my posts and responding one line at a time. That must take some time, right?

Not really.  I type pretty fast.

Surely you have better things to do, maybe like boating, beaches sun and fun or whatever.

Which is why I'm on the boat or at the beach you don't see me posting.

This is not AA advertising, but I know why you want to claim it is, then you can ban me by saying I'm an paid AA spammer or something. What a weak argument to make, come back when you got something better.

I don't think you're being paid to do this at all!! I think you, sadly, truly believe what you're saying and believe it or not, I feel badly for you.   I don't want you banned...hell I don't want anyone banned (with the possible exception of Whooter because I truly believe his motives for posting here are for his own financial gain).

[Maximilian]

During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.

Well I don't see a discussion forum as a conflict. You choose to put flyers on the cars of people outside AA meetings. Now if I spent every weekend night going around to local bars and putting AA flyers on cars, what would you all say about that? I could care less if people don't want to be a part of AA, most people are not. But I do disagree with the stuff posted here about AA, and so I choose to make a counter argument, in an open free for all forum dedicated to the treatment industry. People are free to ignore me and my threads, I won't mind at all. I really could do without all the accusations, or people asking me to shut up and go away, those type of posts are a waste of everybody's time. So does someone who casually posts on a discussion forum on topic really have a difficult time letting live and let live, or a person who spends their free time passing out flyers on cars at AA meetings?

[Maximilian]

There's a difference between posting a few AA threads and the sheer amount of them that you start.

You count up all the threads I've started about AA and report back to us with the staggeringly high number, how about that? Until then I'll just chalk this up to the typical fornits double standard that I so typically see in replies to my arguments.

[Anne Bonney]

During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.

Yep.  If anything, his posts and Danny's do more damage to AA's credibility than we do.  It shows the kind of 'change' that AA produces.

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Anne Bonney]

Much as I disagree with your views on AA, I have to agree you have a right to post what you want.

I don't disagree with that.  Of course he has the right to post what he wants, as I have the right to post a respose.

People should just ignore your posts (like I usually do) if they don't want an argument or debate about it.

It passes the time at work when I'm bored.

And if they consider you a troll then don't feed the trolls!!  :beat:

I don't think he's a troll, I think he truly believes what he's saying.

[Botched Programming]

During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.

Well I don't see a discussion forum as a conflict. You choose to put flyers on the cars of people outside AA meetings. Now if I spent every weekend night going around to local bars and putting AA flyers on cars, what would you all say about that? I could care less if people don't want to be a part of AA, most people are not. But I do disagree with the stuff posted here about AA, and so I choose to make a counter argument, in an open free for all forum dedicated to the treatment industry. People are free to ignore me and my threads, I won't mind at all. I really could do without all the accusations, or people asking me to shut up and go away, those type of posts are a waste of everybody's time. So does someone who casually posts on a discussion forum on topic really have a difficult time letting live and let live, or a person who spends their free time passing out flyers on cars at AA meetings?

As I have said I am no longer a part of AA.. so hence I have not conflict with bring the name into public contraversy... AA's 11th tradition for members state that the AA name never be brought into public contraversy by it's members... They have a Public ralations comittee who should deal with them.. Are you perhaps on the PR committee??  If not you are in direct violation of said fellowships traditions and are not setting a good example of the fellowship.

As Far as me passing out fliers and giving people a choice over the Group think mentality and letting them know they are not powerless.. I have that responsibility as I am no longer a member of said fellowship. If in fact you are a member I would suggest you talk to your sponsor or your local intergroup office before bringing the AA name in contraversy on a forum to see what their suggestions to you would be.

just food for thought.

[Maximilian]

Yep.  If anything, his posts and Danny's do more damage to AA's credibility than we do.  It shows the kind of 'change' that AA produces.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. But go to AA's website and search for meetings in your local area. Most likely is there are many, and they are usually categorized into all the various types. Woman's, Men's, Gay/Lesbian, and all the different types of groups. AA is actually very inclusive, so much so that there is a group for almost anybody who wants to seek help for an addiction issue that is effecting them negatively. Fornits is a very small group of people compared to an organization as large as AA, you really can't even compare the two. The fact is the postings on fornits will not effect AA's credibility, or it's attendance, or how people feel about it. These arguments don't effect anybody other than ourselves, it gives us a place to argue our beliefs and hear the opinions of other people, some of whom might agree or disagree with our own views. I don't see fornits as the jury chamber of what will happen in the treatment industry, as some do here, because it's just not true. I am just one AA supporter among millions, and there happen to be some people here who dislike AA so it usually starts a spirited debate when the topic comes up. Let's not assume their our relatively obscure debates on the internet effect whether people attend AA or not.

[Botched Programming]

During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.

Well I don't see a discussion forum as a conflict. You choose to put flyers on the cars of people outside AA meetings. Now if I spent every weekend night going around to local bars and putting AA flyers on cars, what would you all say about that? I could care less if people don't want to be a part of AA, most people are not. But I do disagree with the stuff posted here about AA, and so I choose to make a counter argument, in an open free for all forum dedicated to the treatment industry. People are free to ignore me and my threads, I won't mind at all. I really could do without all the accusations, or people asking me to shut up and go away, those type of posts are a waste of everybody's time. So does someone who casually posts on a discussion forum on topic really have a difficult time letting live and let live, or a person who spends their free time passing out flyers on cars at AA meetings?

As I have said I am no longer a part of AA.. so hence I have not conflict with bring the name into public contraversy... AA's 11th tradition for members state that the AA name never be brought into public contraversy by it's members... They have a Public ralations comittee who should deal with them.. Are you perhaps on the PR committee??  If not you are in direct violation of said fellowships traditions and are not setting a good example of the fellowship.

As Far as me passing out fliers and giving people a choice over the Group think mentality and letting them know they are not powerless.. I have that responsibility as I am no longer a member of said fellowship. If in fact you are a member I would suggest you talk to your sponsor or your local intergroup office before bringing the AA name in contraversy on a forum to see what their suggestions to you would be.

just food for thought.

[Maximilian]

As I have said I am no longer a part of AA.. so hence I have not conflict with bring the name into public contraversy... AA's 11th tradition for members state that the AA name never be brought into public contraversy by it's members... They have a Public ralations comittee who should deal with them.. Are you perhaps on the PR committee??  If not you are in direct violation of said fellowships traditions and are not setting a good example of the fellowship.

Uh-oh. Well if I might be offending my cult leaders, I best shut up then, right? Nice try, I"ll give you that.  

As Far as me passing out fliers and giving people a choice over the Group think mentality and letting them know they are not powerless.. I have that responsibility as I am no longer a member of said fellowship. If in fact you are a member I would suggest you talk to your sponsor or your local intergroup office before bringing the AA name in contraversy on a forum to see what their suggestions to you would be.

just food for thought.

I don't need to ask anybody's permission to post on a forum about AA. But what if I did spend my free time passing out AA flyers out at bars on their windshields out in the parking lot? What would people here say about me?

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Anne Bonney]

 But go to AA's website and search for meetings in your local area. Most likely is there are many, and they are usually categorized into all the various types. Woman's, Men's, Gay/Lesbian, and all the different types of groups.

Yup, I've been to many, many of them.  Tried different "home groups", different sponsors and couldn't shake the cult-like feeling.

AA is actually very inclusive, so much so that there is a group for almost anybody who wants to seek help for an addiction issue that is effecting them negatively. Fornits is a very small group of people compared to an organization as large as AA, you really can't even compare the two. The fact is the postings on fornits will not effect AA's credibility, or it's attendance, or how people feel about it. These arguments don't effect anybody other than ourselves,

Well, that's not exactly true.  I've had quite a few people contact me off the boards after reading thru the Orange Papers stuff that I've posted and thanked me for releasing them from the groupthink.  But I suspect you won't believe that, just as Danny didn't believe that I spent last (not this) weekend helping someone who's sponsor told them to go off their anti-depressants cold turkey and that "god would take care of it".

And I'm still waiting to find out why you consider 'mainstream' to equal good/right/correct.

[Botched Programming]

As I have said I am no longer a part of AA.. so hence I have not conflict with bring the name into public contraversy... AA's 11th tradition for members state that the AA name never be brought into public contraversy by it's members... They have a Public ralations comittee who should deal with them.. Are you perhaps on the PR committee??  If not you are in direct violation of said fellowships traditions and are not setting a good example of the fellowship.

Uh-oh. Well if I might be offending my cult leaders, I best shut up then, right? Nice try, I"ll give you that.  

As Far as me passing out fliers and giving people a choice over the Group think mentality and letting them know they are not powerless.. I have that responsibility as I am no longer a member of said fellowship. If in fact you are a member I would suggest you talk to your sponsor or your local intergroup office before bringing the AA name in contraversy on a forum to see what their suggestions to you would be.

just food for thought.

I don't need to ask anybody's permission to post on a forum about AA. But what if I did spend my free time passing out AA flyers out at bars on their windshields out in the parking lot? What would people here say about me ?

(1) I take it that you are scared to be honest with your sponsor and the intergroup as you are in fear of what they may say to you.
(2) Yes you do need permission if you are in fact a member of said fellowship. Denial of this would lead me to believe you have never studied your fellowships traditions
(3) I Have seen AA and NA meeting list on cars at bars before... So don't give me that...

[Maximilian]

Well, that's not exactly true.  I've had quite a few people contact me off the boards after reading thru the Orange Papers stuff that I've posted and thanked me for releasing them from the groupthink.  But I suspect you won't believe that, just as Danny didn't believe that I spent last (not this) weekend helping someone who's sponsor told them to go off their anti-depressants cold turkey and that "god would take care of it".

And I'm still waiting to find out why you consider 'mainstream' to equal good/right/correct.

Well to be fair, AA is mainstream in comparison to fornits, but the most mainstream thing is to use alcohol. Being part of AA, and then trying to go out with your old friends who all drink can quickly make you feel like an outsider. This is the reason become a part of AA, and make new friends. So in that sense, I think drinking culture is actually the most mainstream idea out there in relation to alcohol. It's generally accepted to get drunk every weekend, probably even more so than staying completely sober and doing other things. When you go to a party or a wedding and everybody is drinking, and you say no thanks I don't drink, you do get some strange looks sometimes. So you're right, what is mainstream might not necessarily be a better path. This thread was not about whether AA is ethical or unethical , it's about whether a small group of anti treatment extremists (and yes the views here are extreme) calling a large organization like AA a cult, is not an example of the pot calling the kettle black.

As far as sponsors go, I'm not here to defend the individual actions of every person who has been a part of AA. If somebody tells you to go off medication, and you think it helps then they might want to find a new sponsor. Or maybe they will avoid AA altogether and find sobriety through medication/therapy/psychiatry. To each their own. Personally, I prefer AA to psychiatry, but I wouldn't pressure someone who felt the other way around to change their mind. You said you tried out different AA groups, did they attempt to force you to come to meetings when you decided it didn't work for you? I doubt it. It obviously works for a lot of people though, judging by the amount of meetings going on everyday. Just like psychiatry seems to work for a lot of people, judging by the amount of pharmaceutical advertisements in all forms of media. People are free to choose what works for them.

[Anne Bonney]

But what if I did spend my free time passing out AA flyers out at bars on their windshields out in the parking lot? What would people here say about me?

Nothing....it happens all the time.