Academy at Sisters

[Morgans Dad]

Joel, I Would LOVE to consider and alternative plan.  However, attitude towards counseling from her side has flat out been declined.  She believes it's a useless waste. Being a loving parent, I have her future in my foremost thoughts.  I want to see her start to care. To start to make good choices. Stop the unnecessary lying. I'm not going to say I've been a saint but let us just say if there was any sign of responsiveness to alternatives we'd not be considering this course of action. If doing counseling and keeping her at home with us seemed to be a real option we'd go for it I'm sure. From MY extensive research on this particular facility I find that after 16 years of operation under the same name and no scathing data found by parents or participants to actually be a good sign. Granted there's no real GOOD data either. I appreciate all of the input and have found a lot of other good discussions on this site. The main point here is SOMETHING needs to change.  The approaches we've tried thus far have failed to take root. It takes 2 to tango. We are ultra serious about what our expectations have been and how if she wont participate we'll make the choices for her.  Again, good things to ask when we 'tour' (and no plans to just dump her at that time). We're pretty open with Morgan in all things involving family matters. I can't imagine how she would feel if we just told her we were going for a tour and dumped her and ran away.  That would SURELY be abuse IMO. Please, provide more input to ALL sides here.  Maybe she'll take some outside advice and show us some real desire to respect authority and make effort in her academics. I want her to be happy in whatever she chooses to dobe.  If that's being a piercing tattoo artist, fine by me. I just want her honest, trustworthy and educated.  She wont get far in the UK without a good education. There's  Lots of things about the UK she's not aware of from a governmental perspective yet. Would love to have enough trust to let her have a summer alone there when she gets a bit older. :soapbox:

[Troll Control]

Can you emlighten us as to how her safety and future are jeopardized?  

I can't imagine that it would rise to the level of institutionalizing her, which is what you're contemplating.  It is institutionalization and should only be used when she has either tried to kill/harm herself or someone else.  It's very serious business and should be reserved for only the most serious, life-threatening cases.

Take a look at the links in my signature that point to the reasoning of an Aspen (a NATSAP member, BTW, as is Sisters) marketer who frequents this site.  He comes right out and says it: The parent is the customer, the child is the product.  That is the disgusting objectification of children that these programs not-so-openly espouse.  I see a family wrestling with serious familial issues.  They see dollar signs.  You have to open your eyes to this indelible reality.

Why don't we see if we can get a commitment right now out of you and Morgan and make a contract between you that you will seek family and individual counseling at home?  I think you scared the bejeezus out of her already.  She's probably more open now that she sees the very real possibility of being institutionalized for an indefinite period (i.e.,as long as you can pay the bill they will try to keep her or until she turns 18, whichever comes first).  

Many of us have intimate knowledge of how these places operate and you'd do yourself a favor to get answers to the questions we've asked of Sisters.  Two of the programs in Oregon pushed by the Aspen (NATSAP) marketer mentioned earlier were shuttered by the state; one for murdering a child (Sheriff's words, not mine) and one for abusing 100% of the kids in their care (state regulator's words, not mine) and failing to report a forcible rape on their premises.  These two programs, by the way, were considered by industry people to be two of the "safer," "better" programs out there.

You have no way to know what goes on behind closed doors in these institutions, sir and madam.  Remember, care should be delivered in the least restrictive setting possible and should first, do no harm.  

Thank you for coming here to talk with us.  It is greatly appreciated.

[Whooter]

My daughter was struggling with similar issues (at 15 years old), although she agreed to counseling prior to being placed onto a program, so we did work on local options first, which seems to be what you are trying.  I would strongly suggest that Morgan try this path prior to having control of her life handed off to others.  My daughter was very hesitant at first but slowly the high structure of the program and focus on academics took hold and she began to blossom and come into her own.  She gained confidence in her own abilities and matured beyond her years before she graduated and got back on track and finished highschool when she returned home.
It’s a hard decision to sent a child away and it is not for most families but the data suggests that the majority (some studies say 80%) of the kids do well and are helped by their time there and get back on track.

One thing you could ask the program is to speak to other families who were in similar situation and had a child graduate.  Maybe they have some kids who could speak to Morgan.  Just a thought.

Thanks for responding mom and dad and hang in there you are thinking of Morgan first and weighing all the options which is great.  I am sure you will be getting a lot of responses over the next few days.  I will chime in again with more thoughts I am sure.



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[Academy at Sisters]

Well, After having a nice long discussion with my mother, It seems this is going no where.
I asked her about if the program allowed me to contact family, friends, and listen to music, and have basic privileges, and she said, "Well, I asked, but the woman would not tell me. It looks as though that would be a no, because that's not what this is about. It's about staying in touch with the program, not the distractions, and not allowing yourself to be in contact with who you were before.". When I asked her if she had heard any of the negatives or positives to this program, she hadn't even researched it. "Why would these people lie to me?" exact quotes from mother, of course, "Once the kid writes back and tells her parents what's happening, the kid wouldn't stay in the program, right? If you told me what was going on when it was, I wouldn't keep you in the program."

Morgan, are you in the UK?

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Whooter again, screenshot again. Pardon the spam. But this really is how he sees this. If you can't find the flaw in his reasoning then look closer. And remember, you're about to send your kid to people *just like him*.

Okay, if "Morgan's Mom" and "Morgan's Dad" are the actual parents, here, I can personally settle this really, REALLY fucking quick. Watch. Because, in case you missed the previous few pages of this thread, she IS listening to ME.

Morgan's Mom: If this is not about changing who she is, then you picked the TOTALLY wrong approach. And don't think for a minute that the things mentioned on Fornits won't happen to her.

Morgan's Dad: She's a 15 year old girl, right? They do that. They're like that. Now please get her on the computer.

Morgan: Listen very, *very* carefully here. You've been trusting me so far, trust me now. I'm not saying to trust your parents or to change what you believe. I'm saying to start being fucking nicer to them, pronto. No more lies, no more bullshit, anywhere, ever. Your parents are being overprotective and parents of 15-year-old girls are also simply like that. You're a teenager. As we've discovered in this thread you should likely be COUNTING YOUR FUCKING BLESSINGS that you have Internet access and parents smart enough to read Fornits before doing something incredibly stupid. I know. The public school system sucks. It's not that hard for someone of your intelligence, and it beats the ever-loving PANTS off the place your parents are trying to send you. And if your UK boyfriend can't wait until you're 18 then he's not really your boyfriend is he?

So there is NO reason whatsoever for your family to blow 1500 bucks a month on sending you to some shithole.

Morgan's Mom, Morgan's Dad, here's what I want you to do. Give your daughter a nice, big hug, and tell her truthfully that she is not going to end up in some hellhole under the "care" of some stranger. And Morgan? They're your parents. At least pretend to respect them until you're 18.

Got it? Are we settled, yet? Or is this going to get ugly and into territory nobody on Fornits (well, except maybe Whooter) wants to see you get to.

[Troll Control]

As I stated earlier, you should not take advice from someone who has a financial stake in programs.  Again, see the link in my signature about"fiduciary interest in Aspen Education."  

You should also know the program where he claims to have sent his daughter, the supposed "flagship program" of Aspen Education, the Academy at Swift River, was cited by state regulators for using abusive techniques as well:

ASR was cited for several infractions, which included monitoring students' telephone calls and mail as well as "using behavior management techniques which subject students to verbal abuse, ridicule and humiliation, denial of sufficient sleep, and repetitive exercise as a response to an infraction of a rule."

From "Tough love may be a little too tough" (by Stephanie Kraft; June 24, 2006; Valley Advocate):

...At other times, Kent saw students compelled to do degrading make-work as punishment. One time, he said, he saw a girl forced to spend an entire day scrubbing a staircase with a toothbrush. He was also alarmed by the few bits of information he heard about the so-called Life Step sessions, forms of group therapy in which several students would be taken to one of the buildings for day-and-a-half to three-day stays.

"I was instructed repeatedly on paper to prepare very minimal meals for these overnights," Kent said. "I would put up carrot sticks, celery sticks, crackers, cheese, hummus, a few turkey sandwiches, and this plate would be sufficient for two mealtimes. Then I would send a very light breakfast. The staff would have bagels and cream cheese, the kids could only have fruit and cereal. I worried about the fact that the food for the staff was different, and I felt that these were very light meals."

Kent worried about whether the food was being rationed on a punish-and-reward basis during the sessions. The question was one of many the Advocate was unable to discuss with ASR officials, who declined to be interviewed about the program.

Kent had other concerns about the Life Step sessions. He did not witness them, but he heard that the students were kept up most of the night for "therapeutic" group conversations that were a more intense version of the communication sessions he had overheard.

One of the students Kent remembers best was a boy with a talent for drawing, whom he got to know through the mask-making class. One day Kent came to work and the boy was gone. Other staff members said he had been taken from the school in the middle of the previous night and sent west for a wilderness trip. Three weeks later, Kent said, the boy was back, and looking depressed. Another staff member told Kent that when she greeted the student with "Hi, it's nice to have you back," he burst into tears.

Other things worried Kent too. He noticed that the students were not allowed to make telephone calls, even calls to their parents, without a staff member listening, and that their incoming and outgoing mail was read. After he learned that a boy who had broken his collarbone had been forced to move heavy cans and jars and wipe down shelves in the kitchen as punishment for a trifling infraction just a week after being injured, Kent became so worried that he decided to contact the state Department of Social Services about the school's practices. DSS passed the information on to the state Office of Child Care Services, which sent an investigator, Eric Lieberman, to the academy.

Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."

The Office of Child Care Services' investigators found that the school had not been remiss in getting medical treatment for the student with the broken collarbone, but it did substantiate most of Kent's other concerns. It cited the school for "using behavior management techniques which subject students to verbal abuse, ridicule and humiliation, denial of sufficient sleep, and repetitive exercise as a response to an infraction of a rule."

OCCS also cited the school for monitoring students' telephone calls and mail. The agency said that the right to privacy in communications, even for juveniles, can be restricted only by court order -- for example, if a therapist believes that the teen's communication should be monitored, perhaps to support a young person through a crisis in relations with his or her family -- and then only temporarily...[/list]

What is described above is typical for these places and you'd never know it without whistleblowers.  Believe me when I tell you, you will have no idea what is happening to Morgan behind closed doors, period.  And there will be no mechanism for her to report any abuse she might incur.  The kids are simply held incommunicado.

[Morgans Dad]

DJ, if she reads up and shows responsiveness to a well defined plan, then problem solved.  I truly don't WANT to 'Institutionalize' her just because.  We've tried a lot of different approaches. We WILL be calling the county sheriff and DA and see what else may be discovered.  That may all be moot if Morgan can 'come around' and make some effort at change around here. It's just that there's not many years left for advancement.  The Academy looks like a fast track to bridge some of the parenting gaps we've encounter over the years. Some posters on this site have had good outcomes from TBS.  Granted there's lots of  data on schoolsprograms that have not been stellar.  But as a parent I'm not finding anything wrong with the child is the product line of thinking.  The child IS the product.  The product of our parenting. The product of the public school system, the product of the influences of society at large, the media, their peers etc. The end product becomes the adults which go out into the world and have to become a part  of society at large.If one doesn't learn how to respond respectfully to authority (notice I did NOT say RESPECT AUTHORITY) there's going to be trouble somewhere. We don't ask for 'respect' at home, but we expect our interactions to be in a respectful tone. As parents we LOVE out daughter for who she is.  We love the parts of her being that are uniquely her and are not looking to change that.  The habits she is is building at school are not conducive to keeping a job and we all know that being disrespectful to a bass is a sure fired way to not have a job.  I look at this as a last choice for our situation.  Never was this option a first choice.  This has not been an easy decision, nor is it a final one at this point.

[Nihilanthic]

So, what you're saying is because her grades are bad she has to be locked away and have no freedom at all in an unscientific unproven way of 'helping' her?

A few people say TBS helped them when the vast majority says they were abused, neglected, and not helped at all, so it's worth a shot for you - but she has no say in the matter?

Because you have gaps in parenting you think a fly-by-night institution with no medical diagnosis, diagnostics, or proof of efficacy is the best way to fix her because why?

Bad grades and disagreeing with you is called being a teenager. You say you had the possibility of going to a program, yet you turned out fine without. Why is she different?

If you're convinced she will be a 'loser' on account of disagreeing with her parents or having mediocre grades, and the only way to fix that is alternative medicine, you've been sold a good line from an edcon. There is no problem except the crisis of conscience. Bad high school grades really don't mean a damn thing. I personally dropped out on account of high school being worthless and that I found out that it was; when I went to college as a mature adult I got a 3.75 GPA and I'm now a paid undergrad teaching assistant and paid tutor, with everything covered by grants. The point of this being that if someone convinced you high school is some kind of do-or-die-moment, or that 18 is, that's false. There is absolutely no emergency and certainly nothing worth locking someone up over.

Nevertheless, programs don't fix anything and have never ever been able to prove they have. Ever. They play off of general, nebulous fears and then claim to fix general, nebulous things - and if the kid doesn't act perfect, they generally go very far out of their way to say the kid should be completely cut off from the parent until the kid turns around. Read up on exit plans sometime. Certainly not anything worth $5K a month and a daughter being held incommunicado indefinitely until eighteen, now is it?

However, the real question is how much is it worth to ameliorate your well intended but misdirected sense of worry. If she's not committing crimes, and she just doesn't care about what you care about, is that worth losing 60,000 dollars and your relationship with your daughter? Is it worth what you'd be doing to her, when nobody seems to know what is wrong or what will happen? Sending someone to get reprogrammed because you think she's 'going to be a loser' is going beyond the pail to address your own worries about her not being perfect. She's a different individual from you and eventually you'll have to come to grips with that, be it now, at 18, or whenever else.

This is a decision you will regret almost immediately, and when she's had to deal with months of abuse, bullshit and powerlessness, the only fault for her not having a thing to do with you would rest on your own shoulders. $5K/mo can do a lot, but it's your job to figure out what to do - not to let some people selling empty promises to allay fearful parents take it, and your child, and not even give her the right to speak to you or a lawyer without them cutting her off if she says what they don't want.

You wouldn't give her a pill if there was no proof it worked, so why would you lock her up for years?

[Troll Control]

Dad, you're missing the point.  You mean "product" as in "sum total of her experiences," but Whooter stated clearly that the child is a commodity.  Big, big difference there.

Anyway you can click here to see what these program pimps believe about child rights.  

Again, he states clearly, the child has no rights in big, bold red typeface.  A "product" with "no rights"?  This sounds like a human slave trader, not a compassionate helper.

You need to understand this thinking and that it is the dominant paradigm in these institutions, especially the ones under NATSAPs umbrella.  As Pile stated before, abuse is not likely, it's damn near guaranteed.  It's a dead reckoning from my experience that this program, approved by NATSAP, will run the same abusive behavior modifaction scheme that has shuttered so many NATSAP programs before it.  I also worked directly under the founding father of NATSAP, Len Buccellato, who provided the funding and the heft to get it off the ground.  He was sued out of business for fraud and abuse by a program called Hidden Lake Academy.  I know exactly of what I speak, I assure you.

You can't "fast track" healthy relationships by splitting up your family and isolating Morgan.  On it's face, that's an illogical statement.  I also cannot conceive of institutionalizing a child for lying, which seems to be your chief complaint.  If all lying kids were institutionalized, none of us would be here today, right?  They're kids.  They lie.  It's part of growing up and she'll get over it.

Anyway, it sounds like you are willing to work with Morgan if she will work with you and avoid this sordid industry altogether.  I'd like to see you work it out.

[Whooter]

Mom and Dad, Hang in there and keep reading, there is some good information if you look past some of the angered posts, most of them mean well.  Programs are not a good fit for everyone.  If there had been any problems with Academy at Sisters I am sure it would have made its way back here and we just cant seem to dig up any dirt at all on this place so far.  If we do it will be posted here for sure.

Some more thoughts would be to get as much info as you can.  Don’t just use fornits as your sole source because it is highly biased.

Seek the opinion of a local therapist, school counselor, speak with other parents who have had children in programs (as I suggested earlier).  You should tour the facility and speak to some of the girls who are there presently and get a sense for how they like it.  They will probably only expose you to those girls who have been there for awhile and are on a healthy track, but you will still be able to get a sense whether or not the school is a good fit for your daughter.  I was able to pull a few students aside during lunch with them and ask them questions.

Ask if they provide therapy from independent sources outside of the program or offer therapies which you pay directly to (not through the program).

Then take a look at the list we provided from the Government accountability Office (GAO) which will help to see how this school compares with their benchmarks of an acceptable level of choice for therapeutic schools.



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[Nihilanthic]

Mom and Dad, Hang in there and keep reading, there is some good information if you look past some of the angered posts, most of them mean well.  Programs are not a good fit for everyone.  If there had been any problems with Academy at Sisters I am sure it would have made its way back here and we just cant seem to dig up any dirt at all on this place so far.  If we do it will be posted here for sure.

Some more thoughts would be to get as much info as you can.  Don’t just use fornits as your sole source because it is highly biased.

Seek the opinion of a local therapist, school counselor, speak with other parents who have had children in programs (as I suggested earlier).  You should tour the facility and speak to some of the girls who are there presently and get a sense for how they like it.  They will probably only expose you to those girls who have been there for awhile and are on a healthy track, but you will still be able to get a sense whether or not the school is a good fit for your daughter.  I was able to pull a few students aside during lunch with them and ask them questions.

Ask if they provide therapy from independent sources outside of the program or offer therapies which you pay directly to (not through the program).

Then take a look at the list we provided from the Government accountability Office (GAO) which will help to see how this school compares with their benchmarks of an acceptable level of choice for therapeutic schools.
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I'd say to seek a diagnosis first and foremost. Leading with your gut is going to get you nowhere except into the comforting arms of a person out to sell you something. I'd also check the GAO's reports to congress about these places.

Additionally, do not go to a forum which is a censored "parent support forum" and claim that is the other side of anything or pretend it's unbiased. Moderators and ed-cons cut out any dissent quickly, and make their money with referrals, respectively - edcons are not anyone you should get advise from, EVER. They get paid per head to refer children to programs. They are the equivalent of car salesmen.

I also recommend involvement in school - find out what she wants to do, and help her do that; if she doesn't know, help her find it out. I'm still discovering my own love of science and math, but getting on the engineering track to be around professors and talented, retired actuaries and engineers is only expanding my horizons. Maybe she needs more exposure? I won't have my degree until 29 or 30, but if anything I'll have a one-up on some kid who still hasn't grown up and only went through school because he was told to. I'm putting myself through rather well.

Regarding talking to kids in a program - if they would be ALLOWED to speak to you, they would only be allowed to if the program trusted them to say what he program wanted them to say. I'd frankly be shocked if you spoke to anyone except with program staff right beside them, or some higher-level kid who has too much to lose to speak the truth, because escape is close by.

Additionally, you can get therapy without a program, if the program only provides it separately in the first place. The only thing programs do is work a model of giving increased privileges and freedom for conformity, which usually means adhering to strict behavior and saying what they're told to say. This would be great if we were preparing to live in an Orwellian state, but certainly not any way to fix anything, or teach someone to be a well adjusted adult. I'd look into this young man speaking about how much easier the military was than a program to get some perspective.

I'd also check whooter's post history and read the attached files about the things he has actually said. The man is a shill, and quite disruptive; the only reason we allow him around is that what he says and how he says it speaks for itself if you read between the lines. Anyone can speak freely here, but that means people with a buck to make off of someone else are allowed to.

[Whooter]

Regarding talking to kids in a program - if they would be ALLOWED to speak to you, they would only be allowed to if the program trusted them to say what he program wanted them to say. I'd frankly be shocked if you spoke to anyone except with program staff right beside them, or some higher-level kid who has too much to lose to speak the truth, because escape is close by.

My wife and I were actually allowed to walk the campus freely and speak to whomever we wanted to at the "Academy at swift river".  We ate lunch in the dining hall with all the other children.  I am not saying all programs do this because they are all different, but this was my experience.

Additionally, you can get therapy without a program, if the program only provides it separately in the first place. The only thing programs do is work a model of giving increased privileges and freedom for conformity, which usually means adhering to strict behavior and saying what they're told to say. This would be great if we were preparing to live in an Orwellian state, but certainly not any way to fix anything, or teach someone to be a well adjusted adult. I'd look into this young man speaking about how much easier the military was than a program to get some perspective.

I am sorry you had this experience, my daughters’ was totally different.  This is why I encourage anyone new to investigate the program they are considering prior to placement like Morgans parents are.

I'd also check whooter's post history and read the attached files about the things he has actually said. The man is a shill, and quite disruptive; the only reason we allow him around is that what he says and how he says it speaks for itself if you read between the lines. Anyone can speak freely here, but that means people with a buck to make off of someone else are allowed to.

I think it would be foolish to take anyone’s opinion at face value (my own included) over the internet without verifying it with a professional, especially when it comes to ones children.  If I am being disruptive I apologize, but I think Morgan and her parents deserve to hear more than one side of the issue.  The more information we can provide them the better, in my opinion.



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[photo man]

Regarding talking to kids in a program - if they would be ALLOWED to speak to you, they would only be allowed to if the program trusted them to say what he program wanted them to say. I'd frankly be shocked if you spoke to anyone except with program staff right beside them, or some higher-level kid who has too much to lose to speak the truth, because escape is close by.

My wife and I were actually allowed to walk the campus freely and speak to whomever we wanted to at the "Academy at swift river".  We ate lunch in the dining hall with all the other children.  I am not saying all programs do this because they are all different, but this was my experience.

Additionally, you can get therapy without a program, if the program only provides it separately in the first place. The only thing programs do is work a model of giving increased privileges and freedom for conformity, which usually means adhering to strict behavior and saying what they're told to say. This would be great if we were preparing to live in an Orwellian state, but certainly not any way to fix anything, or teach someone to be a well adjusted adult. I'd look into this young man speaking about how much easier the military was than a program to get some perspective.

I am sorry you had this experience, my daughters’ was totally different.  This is why I encourage anyone new to investigate the program they are considering prior to placement like Morgans parents are.

I'd also check whooter's post history and read the attached files about the things he has actually said. The man is a shill, and quite disruptive; the only reason we allow him around is that what he says and how he says it speaks for itself if you read between the lines. Anyone can speak freely here, but that means people with a buck to make off of someone else are allowed to.

I think it would be foolish to take anyone’s opinion at face value (my own included) over the internet without verifying it with a professional, especially when it comes to ones children.  If I am being disruptive I apologize, but I think Morgan and her parents deserve to hear more than one side of the issue.  The more information we can provide them the better, in my opinion.



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ASR / Academy Swift River / - Rudy Bentz was the head master when Whooter sent his daughter to the Academy of Swift River.   Rudy Bentz was notorious for verbally abusing students and invading their physical boundaries.  Whooter advocates for ASR but will not tell you about his daughters lack of success after she graduated.  She split and started drinking.  Will Whooter admit this?  No, he will not.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou9i0fk2KBY

[Whooter]

Again, he states clearly, the child has no rights in big, bold red typeface. A "product" with "no rights"? This sounds like a human slave trader, not a compassionate helper.

Maybe when you have children of your own (or if you do then) when they grow up you will understand.  Parents have a responsibility to take care of their children and they have to make hard choices.  Children just cannot decide on their own to stop going to school (until age 16 in some states).  They cant decide on their own to move out of the house until a certain age.  They cant make their medical decisions at age 1 or age 5 or age 13 etc., they don’t attain these rights.. the parents are responsible.  Morgans parents are responsible for her and for her well being.

If you disagree with this then that is fine you need to change the laws and get out and vote to make it effective.  But you shouldn’t criticize parents for doing their job, Dysfunction Junction.  You will find out someday when your child tells you they don’t want to go to school at say age 13 and they say “Dont I get the right to choose what to do with my own life!  Don’t I have rights?”  lol.  No offense intended, but I don’t think you have had experience raising a child or a teenager.  They don’t have any rights (by law) until they turn 18/21.  I am willing to discuss this with you if you like and you can share your views, but we should take it off line from this thread.



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[Whooter]

ASR / Academy Swift River / - Rudy Bentz was the head master when Whooter sent his daughter to the Academy of Swift River.   Whooter advocates for ASR but will not tell you about his daughters lack of success after she graduated.  She split and started drinking.  Will Whooter admit this?  No, he will not.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou9i0fk2KBY

I have talked about this many times.  My daughter came home and after a couple weeks she went back to her old friends again and started hanging out (against my wishes).  But the difference was she and I talked about it like adults and she wanted to visit them and we had a communication like we never had and we built a trust.  She quickly grew tired of their life style and stopped hanging with them.  she had matured past them and wanted to focus on herself and found new friends.
  So yes she did go back to her old ways (sort of) but got back on a healthy path.  Nothing is perfect and everyone is different.  Its not like the kids are brainwashed and come out all compliant and robot like.  The kids grow emotionally and end up making better life decisions for themselves.



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