LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"

[Ursus]

So sort of like a pathological/ recreational therapy, it doesn’t last very long, makes people feel good but you need to keep going back to the well to keep the buzz going.

That's the impression that I get.  It conflicts with reality, so you have to keep getting revamped, whether it is through the workshops, your own self- hypnosis, or others participants.

Well, having participants go back to the well again and again would seem to be rather key in the overall scheme of things, eh? When folks keep paying to take the next level, and/or recruit new marks to expand the customer base, this ends up making the top of that pyramid mighty rich.  

I would add that not everyone "feels good" after spending time at an LGAT. Some folk have been quite damaged by their experience. And some LGATs certainly seem to have a worse track record than others in this regard.

[Whooter]

I never saw so much energy in one room before.  My wife  went to EST when we were younger.  I dropped her off in the a.m. and then picked her up at night for 2 /3 days I believe and then I attended the final ceremony (not sure what they called it).  People were giving speeches and clapping, laughing.  They almost seemed a little insane like they had no inhibitions left at all.  As I met different people around me they all felt sorry for me that I didn’t experience what they did, but as I looked around I was glad I opted to sit in the bar each night and watch the Red Sox as they all struggled to contain their bladders in a locked conference room pretending to gain insight.  My wife was really cranked up afterwards and wanted to become a sponsor (or sergeant, whatever they called them) and get our neighbors and family members to try it  (which I stepped on real quick),  we changed our routine a bit to satisfy her cravings and after a week or so she settled down back to normal.  Whenever we met someone from the group she would spark up again and regain some of the energy and craziness.  So it was definitely a mental state that mimicked a drug of some sort.



...

[Paul St. John]

So sort of like a pathological/ recreational therapy, it doesn’t last very long, makes people feel good but you need to keep going back to the well to keep the buzz going.

That's the impression that I get.  It conflicts with reality, so you have to keep getting revamped, whether it is through the workshops, your own self- hypnosis, or others participants.

Well, keeping participants going back to the well is part of the whole scheme of things, eh? When folks keep paying to take the next level, and/or recruit new marks to expand the customer base, this ends up making the top of that pyramid mighty rich.  


Sure, and I am not a guy against making money, but do it honestly. This is the way all cults operate.  Ya know, in the church of Scientology, they actually charge members for literature, and a lot at that, just so the members can have the opportunity to pay to ship these things out to others, possibly through mailing lists that the member also purchases, and what do they get ? Nothing.  They are so convinced of the cause, that they just feel good about doing it.  Meanwhile, any recruits they get, then pay their admission, and pay more every step along the way. I simply cannot ignore, that the dynamic is the same in the programs that I know of.


I would add that not everyone "feels good" after spending time at an LGAT. Some folk have been quite damaged by their experience.

I believe it. Not everybody can handle it.


 And some LGATs certainly seem to have a worse track record than others in this regard.

Probably depending on the extreme tp which they employ the more stupid portions of the ideology.

Paul

[Ursus]

I never saw so much energy in one room before.  My wife  went to EST when we were younger.  I dropped her off in the a.m. and then picked her up at night for 2 /3 days I believe and then I attended the final ceremony (not sure what they called it).  People were giving speeches and clapping, laughing.  They almost seemed a little insane like they had no inhibitions left at all.  As I met different people around me they all felt sorry for me that I didn’t experience what they did, but as I looked around I was glad I opted to sit in the bar each night and watch the Red Sox as they all struggled to contain their bladders in a locked conference room pretending to gain insight.  My wife was really cranked up afterwards and wanted to become a sponsor (or sergeant, whatever they called them) and get our neighbors and family members to try it  (which I stepped on real quick),  we changed our routine a bit to satisfy her cravings and after a week or so she settled down back to normal.  Whenever we met someone from the group she would spark up again and regain some of the energy and craziness.  So it was definitely a mental state that mimicked a drug of some sort.

Oh, no "mimicking" needed, lol. Try mega-release of adrenalin and endorphins and whatever else is in the mix that your body cranks out in response to crisis plus exhaustion. I'm sure it's addictive.

The trainers manipulate the crowd much like a conductor tends to his orchestra: pressure-release... pressure-release... tease them up with mini crescendos here and there... pizzicato now and then for titillation... destroy them every once in a while to make the highs feel higher, as well as to weaken participants' resistance to thorough penetration of the message... but build the mightiest crescendo for the supreme climax at the end, leaving them all with a maximal high.

Wooooo-u-Wooooooooooo! DINAH! Won't yah blow yer HORRNNNNNNN!!!



A good trainer can thus maximize his or her percentage of repeaters on the next seminar, I imagine.  

[SUCK IT]

What is being described here happens in churches and other religions every Sunday. In some churches people get up and sing and dance or talk in tongue. Adolescent worship also pray in groups and do the things described here, but no complaints about that? These groups you speak about are just copying religion, but putting it in a secular framework. Think of it as religion for atheists or people who don't like religions for whatever reason, but still want the same emotions involved with the service. It's easy to make fun of these people and say look it's addictive, the come back every week and even pay for it by donating money. If it didn't give people what they needed they wouldn't go, so obviously it is doing something positive for people. This group dynamic is present in many different scenarios, but for some reason when applied for self improvement or treatment programs it suddenly is some evil tactic, more double standard from this forum.

[DannyB II]

http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=30
Another major influence for the New Warrior Training Adventure for MKP is Robert Bly's writings and his influence on the men's movement. On the back cover of the training manual for leaders on the NWTA called The Circle of Men, Kauth credits Bly's influence. It states that the "wild man weekends" are inspired by the mythopoetic writings and personal testimonies of Robert Bly, Sam Keen and John Lee. It goes on to say that they followed Bly's practical advice he gave to gatherings of men to form small groups. Bly is quoted extensively in their writings. Bly has attended several of the weekends and continues to support MKP. Much of the Native American Indian Spiritualism and rituals performed at the NWTA weekends comes directly from Bly and the works of Carl G. Jung. Several books written by Bly are also used: Iron John, Little Book on the Human Shadow, and The Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart Poems for Men.
Re: HAPA -- an LGAT

DannyB II wrote:
I can personally attest to Roberts influence on the mens movement. John Lee and his book the "Flying Boy" is a great book, much to learn.



Postby Ursus » March 2nd, 2008, 10:39 am

Paul Lynde wrote:Paul Lynde was found dead of a heart attack, naked and holding a bottle of amyl nitrate

Ursus wrote:
Well... at least he wasn't holding a "special stick."
When you have the icon in your lap, it's your turn to share.
 
Mark Roggemann wrote:
They are encouraged in sessions to share about times they were shamed while growing up. These are wounds that were hidden and now need to be dealt with. At one session, a male phallic symbol was passed around signifying what it means to be a man; they were encouraged to talk about sexual experiences.

Ursus wrote:
Those sessions are done whilst everyone is naked. At a certain point in the session, the men are encouraged to touch an adjacent brother between the legs if they so wish (yep!!), and reveal their feelings for their brother Warriors... lol

 
DannyB II wrote:
This really frightens you doesn't it Ursus, so much that you become very effeminate, maybe it is you regressing to that little boy who was intimidated by dad. I don't know but I find this remark very queer(odd). Your giggling is not unusual for someone uncomfortable with their nakedness if front of others. Your doing this with 100 other men.
 
Another note;  
Ursus never did the Warrior Weekend so he is only going by Mark Roggemann testimony and others, he really does not know if they get naked or not. Now mind you they do but he doesn't know.
 
I googled Mark Roggemann and have not found any significance as of yet that this gentlemen is anything other then a regular Joe.

Robert Bly's, "Iron John" story is used as a bases for the weekend.
I personally have met Robert on several occasions at his hometown in Minnesota and also in Mentone, Alabama with John Lee. John I know well from his time in Georgia and from working with John personally and attending John and Roberts weekend in Mentone every late October.

danny

[Ursus]

http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=30

Another major influence for the New Warrior Training Adventure for MKP is Robert Bly's writings and his influence on the men's movement. On the back cover of the training manual for leaders on the NWTA called The Circle of Men, Kauth credits Bly's influence. It states that the "wild man weekends" are inspired by the mythopoetic writings and personal testimonies of Robert Bly, Sam Keen and John Lee. It goes on to say that they followed Bly's practical advice he gave to gatherings of men to form small groups. Bly is quoted extensively in their writings. Bly has attended several of the weekends and continues to support MKP. Much of the Native American Indian Spiritualism and rituals performed at the NWTA weekends comes directly from Bly and the works of Carl G. Jung. Several books written by Bly are also used: Iron John, Little Book on the Human Shadow, and The Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart Poems for Men.

I can personally attest to Roberts influence on the mens movement. John Lee and his book the "Flying Boy" is a great book, much to learn.

Fwiw, the correct link for the post containing Mark Roggeman's article, "OH MAN, WHAT KIND OF PROJECT IS THIS? EXPOSING THE INDECENT EXPOSURE OF THE MANKIND PROJECT," from which the above quote was taken is HERE.

[Anne Bonney]

What is being described here happens in churches and other religions every Sunday. In some churches people get up and sing and dance or talk in tongue. Adolescent worship also pray in groups and do the things described here, but no complaints about that? These groups you speak about are just copying religion, but putting it in a secular framework. Think of it as religion for atheists or people who don't like religions for whatever reason, but still want the same emotions involved with the service. It's easy to make fun of these people and say look it's addictive, the come back every week and even pay for it by donating money. If it didn't give people what they needed they wouldn't go, so obviously it is doing something positive for people. This group dynamic is present in many different scenarios, but for some reason when applied for self improvement or treatment programs it suddenly is some evil tactic, more double standard from this forum.

Maybe, but church is voluntary.  You can walk out or walk away at any time.  Kids that are exposed to it for months on end and their progress in their program depends on how well they "perform" in these sessions can't walk away.  It also has that element of "break 'em to build 'em" which should never be used on children, let alone troubled children, IMO.

[Ursus]

I googled Mark Roggemann and have not found any significance as of yet that this gentlemen is anything other then a regular Joe.

Robert Bly's, "Iron John" story is used as a bases for the weekend.
I personally have met Robert on several occasions at his hometown in Minnesota and also in Mentone, Alabama with John Lee. John I know well from his time in Georgia and from working with John personally and attending John and Roberts weekend in Mentone every late October.

danny

Mark Roggeman is a police officer, as well as cult exit-counselor, based in Colorado.

The brief biographical sketch on him at the end of the article you quoted from in your post above ... reads as follows:

Mark Roggeman has been involved in outreach to those affected by cults and other highdemand groups for a period of 30 years. He has assisted with exit-counseling individuals trapped in cults and provides support for the families with loved ones who are involved in cults. He has served as a police officer in Denver, Colorado for the past 34 years and assists other law-enforcement agencies with information and training on cults.

Mark is currently a part-time missionary with Haven Ministry located in the Denver Area. He has a degree in Criminal Justice and has attended Calvary Chapel Bible College.[/list]

[SUCK IT]

What is being described here happens in churches and other religions every Sunday. In some churches people get up and sing and dance or talk in tongue. Adolescent worship also pray in groups and do the things described here, but no complaints about that? These groups you speak about are just copying religion, but putting it in a secular framework. Think of it as religion for atheists or people who don't like religions for whatever reason, but still want the same emotions involved with the service. It's easy to make fun of these people and say look it's addictive, the come back every week and even pay for it by donating money. If it didn't give people what they needed they wouldn't go, so obviously it is doing something positive for people. This group dynamic is present in many different scenarios, but for some reason when applied for self improvement or treatment programs it suddenly is some evil tactic, more double standard from this forum.

Maybe, but church is voluntary.  You can walk out or walk away at any time.  Kids that are exposed to it for months on end and their progress in their program depends on how well they "perform" in these sessions can't walk away.  It also has that element of "break 'em to build 'em" which should never be used on children, let alone troubled children, IMO.

Your cult leader psy could have walked out at any time, yet still claims he was 'abused' in treatment. This is the same fornits double standard that many people see on this forum and wonder why the extremists cannot see it. AA is voluntary yet that is described as something evil, more double standards. A lot of scenarios have a break em to build em system, this is just a clever fornits term to introduce violent terms into the debate once again, school breaks down old ideas and replaces them with new ones nobody complains that is abusive here.

[Anne Bonney]

What is being described here happens in churches and other religions every Sunday. In some churches people get up and sing and dance or talk in tongue. Adolescent worship also pray in groups and do the things described here, but no complaints about that? These groups you speak about are just copying religion, but putting it in a secular framework. Think of it as religion for atheists or people who don't like religions for whatever reason, but still want the same emotions involved with the service. It's easy to make fun of these people and say look it's addictive, the come back every week and even pay for it by donating money. If it didn't give people what they needed they wouldn't go, so obviously it is doing something positive for people. This group dynamic is present in many different scenarios, but for some reason when applied for self improvement or treatment programs it suddenly is some evil tactic, more double standard from this forum.

Maybe, but church is voluntary.  You can walk out or walk away at any time.  Kids that are exposed to it for months on end and their progress in their program depends on how well they "perform" in these sessions can't walk away.  It also has that element of "break 'em to build 'em" which should never be used on children, let alone troubled children, IMO.

Your cult leader psy could have walked out at any time, yet still claims he was 'abused' in treatment. This is the same fornits double standard that many people see on this forum and wonder why the extremists cannot see it. AA is voluntary yet that is described as something evil, more double standards. A lot of scenarios have a break em to build em system, this is just a clever fornits term to introduce violent terms into the debate once again, school breaks down old ideas and replaces them with new ones nobody complains that is abusive here.

Then talk to Psy about that.  I'm talking about kids in programs who have no choice.

[Ursus]

Paul Lynde was found dead of a heart attack, naked and holding a bottle of amyl nitrate

Well... at least he wasn't holding a "special stick."

They are encouraged in sessions to share about times they were shamed while growing up. These are wounds that were hidden and now need to be dealt with. At one session, a male phallic symbol was passed around signifying what it means to be a man; they were encouraged to talk about sexual experiences.

When you have the icon in your lap, it's your turn to share.

Those sessions are done whilst everyone is naked. At a certain point in the session, the men are encouraged to touch an adjacent brother between the legs if they so wish (yep!!), and reveal their feelings for their brother Warriors... lol

This really frightens you doesn't it Ursus, so much that you become very effeminate, maybe it is you regressing to that little boy who was intimidated by dad. I don't know but I find this remark very queer(odd). Your giggling is not unusual for someone uncomfortable with their nakedness if front of others. Your doing this with 100 other men.
 
Another note;  
Ursus never did the Warrior Weekend so he is only going by Mark Roggemann testimony and others, he really does not know if they get naked or not. Now mind you they do but he doesn't know.
 
I googled Mark Roggemann and have not found any significance as of yet that this gentlemen is anything other then a regular Joe.

Robert Bly's, "Iron John" story is used as a bases for the weekend.
I personally have met Robert on several occasions at his hometown in Minnesota and also in Mentone, Alabama with John Lee. John I know well from his time in Georgia and from working with John personally and attending John and Roberts weekend in Mentone every late October.

danny

The above quote from me that Danny is responding to is from the Hyde thread 'HAPA -- an LGAT,' and was originally posted on 02 Mar 2008.

· • ·

@Danny: you're really into this stuff, eh? There's a good sprinkling of MKP in the Hyde Schools forum, given that a fair number of the adults in the Hyde community have seen fit to involve themselves with it. Particularly "high ranking" members of the community, lol.

And no, MKP does not "frighten" me, although it does seem rather important to you to characterize me that way.  

[DannyB II]

I googled Mark Roggemann and have not found any significance as of yet that this gentlemen is anything other then a regular Joe.

Robert Bly's, "Iron John" story is used as a bases for the weekend.
I personally have met Robert on several occasions at his hometown in Minnesota and also in Mentone, Alabama with John Lee. John I know well from his time in Georgia and from working with John personally and attending John and Roberts weekend in Mentone every late October.

danny

Mark Roggeman is a police officer, as well as cult exit-counselor, based in Colorado.

The brief biographical sketch on him at the end of the article you quoted from in your post above ... reads as follows:

Mark Roggeman has been involved in outreach to those affected by cults and other highdemand groups for a period of 30 years. He has assisted with exit-counseling individuals trapped in cults and provides support for the families with loved ones who are involved in cults. He has served as a police officer in Denver, Colorado for the past 34 years and assists other law-enforcement agencies with information and training on cults.

Mark is currently a part-time missionary with Haven Ministry located in the Denver Area. He has a degree in Criminal Justice and has attended Calvary Chapel Bible College.[/list]

Like I said just a regular, Joe.

[Anne Bonney]

URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)

 
No Ursus you forgot to explicitly point this out. OK!!!!!!!

Uhhh, yeah....that pretty much goes along with any "wikipedia" link.  Are you not aware of this?

[DannyB II]

Ursus wrote:
@Danny: you're really into this stuff, eh? There's a good sprinkling of MKP in the Hyde Schools forum, given that a fair number of the adults in the Hyde community have seen fit to involve themselves with it. Particularly "high ranking" members of the community, lol.  

 Danny wrote:  
Ursus your predictable.......lol.
Ursus have you done the Warrior Weekend ?
WOW....Hyde school emplyees, ex-programees and particularly "high ranking" members of the community. What does this mean Ursus, that all the residents at Hyde are sitting around naked touching the privates parts of the student to their left, with the "high ranking" members sitting up in front single handedly showing the way.......lol.
"Please tell me this is not so".
I think Chuck Berry sang a song, "Hand Jiving". Is this how they sing "Jingle Bells" at Hyde.

Ursus:
And no, it doesn't "frighten" me, although it does seem rather important to you to characterize me that way.  

Well read your comment, Mr Giggle pants.


danny