Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

[Whooter]

http://www.google.com - Do some research on daily calorie intake for exercise like the children do at Sagewalk.

So you dont have anything...... it is safe to say you cannot support your abuse and neglect allegations and the kids get enough nutrition on these hikes.  If you remember how you came about your information just toss it up here and we will take a look.



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

DHS regulations for wilderness schools require all students to be offered no less than 3,000 calories of food per day. Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit. Hmmm...2 cups of food, heavy exercise.... Not enough food = neglect = violating DHS regulations = endangering the welfare of a minor! Do the math below Whooter!

The two cups that were offered was for one meal (not the entire day), you might have been confused there.  Sergey wasn’t with Sagewalk the whole first day so probably ate breakfast with the transport guys prior to getting there.

There wasn’t any indication that Sergey was exercising at all.  1,200 to 1,500 calories isnt abusive if you are sitting around all day.  The key is if he were getting enough fluids and electrolytes to detox his system.  This is more important than food the first day or two, the kids typically have plenty of fat on them to burn off.



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[Anne Bonney]

Yep, it sure did. Because the staff's first thought is to call other program staff (the "oh shit, maybe we really fucked up" realization)....not to get medical help. They've been trained to regard these kids a just a buncha spoiled druggie kids and to regard any complaints that the kids have about treatment as manipulation. Hell, we were flat out told that we didn't have any rights.

Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights. Maybe the staff called  911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem.  So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.

Are you fucking kidding me??  Yes...contrary to what you'd like reality to be....kids most certainly do have rights.  Those rights aren't recognized by the sadistic fucking control freaks that run programs, but they absolutely do have them.  You really are an ass.  

I don't give a shit if the staff was afraid of getting their asses reamed or afraid of Elliot Sainer himself!!!  If you've got a kid vomiting during a hike in the desert heat, while carrying 80 lbs of gear, on his FIRST day and then he STOPS FUCKING BREATHING....you call 911, not your fucking boss.  Especially after other kids have been killed in the very same manner at one of your other shitpits.

[Troll Control]

Anne, this is the same guy who said programs shouldn't have an abuse hotline because the "operator might talk dirty to the the kids" if they were allowed to call.  He's an idiot.  He obviously doesn't care at all that this kid died unnecessarily at the hands of quacks.  No normal person would defend that.  Only someone with a fiduciary interest in Aspen Education would say anything resembling what Whooter says.  He doesn't care that kids die in programs for things that are 100% preventable.

[Whooter]

I don't give a shit if the staff was afraid of getting their asses reamed or afraid of Elliot Sainer himself!!! If you've got a kid vomiting during a hike in the desert heat, while carrying 80 lbs of gear, on his FIRST day and then he STOPS FUCKING BREATHING....you call 911, not your fucking boss. Especially after other kids have been killed in the very same manner at one of your other shitpits.

I probably would have called 911 myself long before they did, but I haven’t been on a ton of hikes in wilderness.  Maybe vomiting is typical the first day out, who knows.  I wouldn’t care about getting my ass reamed out and it doesn’t seem like you would either, but we cant speak for the staff out on the hike.  What was their motive?  What was the extent of their training?



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[Troll Control]

I think it's a great idea to put up a TheWho FAQ's page.  You could categorize it and provide his stock answer along with the debunking for various topics.  Great idea.

Two posts above I referenced "HLA" in the abuse hotline story, but it was actually ASR, where TheWho sent his daughter.  Here's what he has to say about the potential of a counselor sexually abusing a child at ASR, where there is no abuse hotline as required by Mass law:

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible.  The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also...  The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a �Hot Line� to be installed in the school.

2.  How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

That's really all you need to know.  TheWho advocates silencing abuse victims and protecting their abusers.  Plain and simple, folks.

If he was a parent, he would never, ever, do that.  He's nothing but a con artist...  a total and complete sociopath.

Just look at who you're talking to, Anne.

[Anne Bonney]

I don't give a shit if the staff was afraid of getting their asses reamed or afraid of Elliot Sainer himself!!! If you've got a kid vomiting during a hike in the desert heat, while carrying 80 lbs of gear, on his FIRST day and then he STOPS FUCKING BREATHING....you call 911, not your fucking boss. Especially after other kids have been killed in the very same manner at one of your other shitpits.

I probably would have called 911 myself long before they did, but I haven’t been on a ton of hikes in wilderness.  Maybe vomiting is typical the first day out, who knows.  I wouldn’t care about getting my ass reamed out and it doesn’t seem like you would either, but we cant speak for the staff out on the hike. What was their motive?  What was the extent of their training?

To keep the program out of trouble.  To hide what really goes on.  That's what all the isolation, secrecy, limiting of communication, closed society, insular world with no outside contact is all about.  It obviously ain't about the kids' safety.  This shit keeps happening and people like you keep making excuses for them.  It really is twisted.

[Whooter]

What was their motive?  What was the extent of their training?

To keep the program out of trouble.  To hide what really goes on.  That's what all the isolation, secrecy, limiting of communication, closed society, insular world with no outside contact is all about.  It obviously ain't about the kids' safety.  This shit keeps happening and people like you keep making excuses for them.  It really is twisted.

Its called wilderness.  Our society, as you know it, use to all live in the wilderness, Anne.  The place is isolated, with limited communication.  I don’t know how you can define a few hikers as a closed society and their motive for not calling sooner wasn’t secrecy or keeping out of trouble.  Leaving dead bodies around the dessert or woods isn’t a good design for secrecy lol, and certainly wont result in keeping the program out of trouble.

Why are you so afraid of finding out what caused Sergeys death?  Why do you attempt to suppress the truth or change the subject by accusing anyone who wants to talk openly about this as making excuses or protecting the program?



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[Anne Bonney]

Its called wilderness.  Our society, as you know it, use to all live in the wilderness, Anne.  The place is isolated, with limited communication.  I don’t know how you can define a few hikers as a closed society and their motive for not calling sooner wasn’t secrecy or keeping out of trouble.  

I don't know how you can call a Wilderness program "a few hikers". It's a bit more than that, but you know that and are AGAIN purposely trying to confuse the reader in defense of your precious program.

Why are you so afraid of finding out what caused Sergeys death?

I'm not, but apparently you are or you wouldn't STILL be here doing damage control.

 

Why do you attempt to suppress the truth or change the subject by accusing anyone who wants to talk openly about this as making excuses or protecting the program?

Yeah, it's me who's doing that.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttt.

Wanna explain why you don't think kids have any rights?

[Whooter]

I don't know how you can call a Wilderness program "a few hikers". It's a bit more than that, but you know that and are AGAIN purposely trying to confuse the reader in defense of your precious program.

From my experience.  My daughters' group had 6 kids in all when she was at SUWS.  I wouldn’t call that a closed society or a cult.  

So,Anne, if you are not afraid of finding out the truth then why does it bother you that I am asking questions about it and trying to determine what happened?  You seem content to take an arms length view of “a kid died in the programs care” and that’s all you want to know.
I, on the other hand, have a need to understand what happened specifically so that root cause can be determined and other kids can be spared a similar fate. But this bothers you for some reason, which I find interesting.



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[Anne Bonney]

From my experience.

You don't have any.  Your kid might, but you don't.

 

My daughters' group had 6 kids in all when she was at SUWS.  I wouldn’t call that a closed society or a cult.  

Of course you wouldn't because you've never experienced it from the inside.

So,Anne, if you are not afraid of finding out the truth then why does it bother you that I am asking questions about it and trying to determine what happened?

If you were genuinely just asking questions, I wouldn't be bothered by it but you're not.  You're spinning, deflecting and generally doing what you usually do. Damage control.  

 

You seem content to take an arms length view of “a kid died in the programs care” and that’s all you want to know.

No, what I've stated is that ANOTHER kid died in the program's care, in the SAME MANNER as OTHER KIDS who have DIED IN THEIR CARE.  I want to know what the purpose of having them hike with such loads on them.  I want to know why he wasn't fed properly.  I want to know why the staff's first instinct is to call their boss, not 911.  You, OTOH, are only interested in making excuses for them.

I, on the other hand, have a need to understand what happened specifically so that root cause can be determined and other kids can be spared a similar fate.

No you don't.  You're here to do damage control.  Period.  The root cause is that these places don't really give a shit about the kids entrusted to their care.  If they did, they'd have ALREADY taken steps to prevent this, but they don't.  Even after multiple deaths from pretty much the same cause(s).



Below is what I'd like to see parents do who feel they have "troubled" kids.  You're a fan of outsourcing your parental responsibilities.  I'm not.




Re: Rachel Uchitel, Cedu Celebrity, NY It Girl, Tiger Woods, etc

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:44 am


I remember when another celebrity, Angela Lansbury, found herself with a couple of "troubled" kids she and her husband put their careers on hold, moved to Ireland and spent time with them, getting the whole family on track. I always thought that was pretty cool AND her kids have real jobs today.




Now, wanna explain to the class why you don't think kids have any rights?

[Anne Bonney]

I think it's a great idea to put up a TheWho FAQ's page.  You could categorize it and provide his stock answer along with the debunking for various topics.  Great idea.

Two posts above I referenced "HLA" in the abuse hotline story, but it was actually ASR, where TheWho sent his daughter.  Here's what he has to say about the potential of a counselor sexually abusing a child at ASR, where there is no abuse hotline as required by Mass law:

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible.  The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also...  The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a �Hot Line� to be installed in the school.

2.  How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

That's really all you need to know.  TheWho advocates silencing abuse victims and protecting their abusers.  Plain and simple, folks.

Wow....that is pretty fucked up!

[Whooter]

If you were genuinely just asking questions, I wouldn't be bothered by it but you're not. You're spinning, deflecting and generally doing what you usually do. Damage control.

If you can post an example of this please place a link for me to see.  I will apologize.  But in almost every case  "you" have taken the focus of the discussion off of Sergey and onto me.  Lets stay on topic.

No, what I've stated is that ANOTHER kid died in the program's care, in the SAME MANNER as OTHER KIDS who have DIED IN THEIR CARE. I want to know what the purpose of having them hike with such loads on them. I want to know why he wasn't fed properly. I want to know why the staff's first instinct is to call their boss, not 911. You, OTOH, are only interested in making excuses for them.

Show me the excuses I have made.  Its called a discussion, Anne.  Why are you so afraid of this?  You get threatened every time anyone questions the details of Sergeys death and you translate this into spinning or damage control.  But when asked for examples you come up empty.
If you are afraid of the details then stick your head in the sand and pretend what you have to to make yourself feel safe.



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[Anne Bonney]

 Lets stay on topic.

Fuck you.

Why are you so afraid of this?  You get threatened every time anyone questions the details of Sergeys death and you translate this into spinning or damage control.  But when asked for examples you come up empty.
If you are afraid of the details then stick your head in the sand and pretend what you have to to make yourself feel safe.

I'm not afraid of anything.  I'm annoyed with your constant deflection.  It's difficult to have a civilized discussion about the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.