Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Anne Bonney]

Every time you dont understand something you accuse them of twisting.

No, I understand perfectly well.  You twist everyone else's words to fit your agenda.


 

Yes, you have a hard time with people who dont agree with you or think the same way you do.

No, I don't.

 

You think I am really, really fucked up because I dont believe children have rights.

Yes, I do.  I feel sorry for any kids that are under your control or that you have any influence over.

 You should find other people who think just like you do and speak to them and I bet you will feel much safer.

It's not my safety I'm concerned with.  It's the children's safety under the control of people that don't think they have any rights.

There are people that have totally different believes than me but I find their reasons interesting, not threatening.  I dont think they are necessarily screwed up, but I am curious on why they think the way they do.  I dont shun them.  

Awww, are your feelings hurt?  Am I shunning you?

If I speak with an atheist or someone who worships the sun or the moon... someone who goes to AA or believes in the orange papers or people who believe in corporal punishment ... I dont view them as messed up just because I dont understand their point of view.  I ask questions and try to gain a better perspective myself on why they think that way.  I feel bad that you have locked yourself away in a box.

Don't you worry 'bout me.  I'm just fine, now that I've gotten away from people, like you, who believe that children don't have rights.

[Whooter]

"I dont believe children have any rights"

Do you stand by the above statement Whooter?  I sincerely hope this isn't the case.  [/i]

I stand by all my posts, Joel.  I know that most of the posters here believe that kids should be able to fend for themselves, choose to go to school or not.  make their own medical decisions, choose to put what ever they want into their bodies etc. (free range children!!)lol
But this has been voted on several times and the majority of the people in the US have decided that the parents will remain guardians of children until a certain age (18 - 21).

Thinking like this scares the bejesus out of people like Anne Bonney because it takes her out of her safety zone.  She cannot relate to anyone who is totally outside her belief system and feels they are evil.  Does this thinking scare you too Joel?

The relevant capacity qualifying children for possession of rights is that of the ability to choose.   Children in general lack certain cognitive abilities—to acquire and to process information in an ordered fashion, to form consistent and stable beliefs, to appreciate the significance of options and their consequences.  Children can be great risk takers.  how do we determine when a child has attained the cognitive ability to vote?  Would a 5 year old child be able to choose what type of cancer treatment to undertake?  Would a 6 year old be able to weigh the risk of deciding not to go to school?  Should we allow 12 year olds to have sex and get married?  Drive a car?  Go to therapy?  Go to a wilderness program?


The united nations have developed a set of rights for children that they have defined for developing countries which match well with basic human rights which covers humans of any age (which ties into the whole abortion issue).




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[Troll Control]

The relevant capacity qualifying children for possession of rights is that of the ability to choose. Children in general lack certain cognitive abilities—to acquire and to process information in an ordered fashion, to form consistent and stable beliefs, to appreciate the significance of options and their consequences. Children can be great risk takers...

Just in case anyone thought Whooter grew a brain and could miraculously talk intelligently on child rights, he plagiarized a Stanford website.  Of course, he didn't cite his source.  He tried to pass it off as his own work.  I believe Ajax13 hit this on the head when he called Whooter "stupid and lazy."  Alas, it's true, Ajax13.  Good point.

Link to Whooter's Plagiarization

I stand by all my posts, Joel.

Because they were written by academics who know what they're talking about.   :rofl: Whooter, OTOH, is a run-of-the-mill dumbass.

[Anne Bonney]

I know that most of the posters here believe that kids should be able to fend for themselves, choose to go to school or not.  make their own medical decisions, choose to put what ever they want into their bodies etc. (free range children!!)lol

More assumptions.

But this has been voted on several times and the majority of the people in the US have decided that the parents will remain guardians of children until a certain age (18 - 21).

When did anyone say that they shouldn't?

Thinking like this scares the bejesus out of people like Anne Bonney because it takes her out of her safety zone.  She cannot relate to anyone who is totally outside her belief system and feels they are evil.  Does this thinking scare you too Joel?

Putting words in my mouth AGAIN.  No, people who work in this industry and believe that children don't have any rights scare the living shit out of me, as they should any compassionate, thinking person.

Look Who....no matter how much belittling you do to me, no matter how many veiled insults you toss around, no matter how pompous and arrogant you are, no matter how much you twist my words, the bottom line is that when I said that we (in Straight) were told that we didn't have any rights, you responded by saying that Straight was right and that, indeed, children do not have rights.  That's fucked up and considering there's a good possibility that you are working in some capacity for programs, that's goddamned frightening.

The relevant capacity qualifying children for possession of rights is that of the ability to choose.   Children in general lack certain cognitive abilities—to acquire and to process information in an ordered fashion, to form consistent and stable beliefs, to appreciate the significance of options and their consequences.  Children can be great risk takers.  how do we determine when a child has attained the cognitive ability to vote?  Would a 5 year old child be able to choose what type of cancer treatment to undertake?  Would a 6 year old be able to weigh the risk of deciding not to go to school?  Should we allow 12 year olds to have sex and get married?  Drive a car?  Go to therapy?  Go to a wilderness program?

Now that's not what anyone suggested, but you knew that already.  Again with the twisting and deflection.

The united nations have developed a set of rights for children that they have defined for developing countries which match well with basic human rights which covers humans of any age

The UN doesn't have any jurisdiction over children here, in camps.  


Bottom line is that when I said that we (in Straight) were told that we didn't have any rights, you responded by saying that Straight was right and that, indeed, children do not have rights.  That's fucked up and considering there's a good possibility that you are working in some capacity for programs, that's goddamned frightening.

[Whooter]

The UN doesn't have any jurisdiction over children here, in camps.

That was my point.  But they did outline some basic rights for children which they are pushing to have developing nations adopt.

Bottom line is that when I said that we (in Straight) were told that we didn't have any rights, you responded by saying that Straight was right and that, indeed, children do not have rights. That's fucked up and considering there's a good possibility that you are working in some capacity for programs, that's goddamned frightening.

It has nothing to do with what I believe personally.  People vote on this every year.  People come up with bills to give children more say in their lives into the adult world and the voters decide which ,if any, that children should have.  The laws are very clear.  I dont believe kids should be exploited but I believe kids need to be protected from themselves and therefore should not given rights that they dont understand or able to rationalize.

The people in straight were right on this aspect.  I don’t agree with the program they developed but they were right that the kids didn’t have any rights.  I understand that this may be a sensitive subject for you… like discussing rape with a rape victim… so I wont bring it up as a topic with you which may help.



...

[Anne Bonney]

[
It has nothing to do with what I believe personally.  People vote on this every year.  People come up with bills to give children more say in their lives into the adult world and the voters decide which ,if any, that children should have.  The laws are very clear.  I dont believe kids should be exploited but I believe kids need to be protected from themselves and therefore should not given rights that they dont understand or able to rationalize.

No one said that.  It was your twisting of words.  Again.

The people in straight were right on this aspect.  

No, they weren't.  We had rights.  They weren't recognized by Straight, but we did have them.

I don’t agree with the program they developed but they were right that the kids didn’t have any rights.

No, they were wrong.

 

I understand that this may be a sensitive subject for you… like discussing rape with a rape victim… so I wont bring it up as a topic with you which may help.

Blow it out your ass.  Like you're so concerned.  

Doesn't matter what you believe.  Children have rights.   Period.  Just because their parents are the guardians, doesn't mean that they don't have rights.  Why is this basic concept so difficult for you to accept?


Bottom line is that when I said that we (in Straight) were told that we didn't have any rights, you responded by saying that Straight was right and that, indeed, children do not have rights. That's fucked up and considering there's a good possibility that you are working in some capacity for programs, that's goddamned frightening.

[Whooter]

Doesn't matter what you believe. Children have rights. Period. Just because their parents are the guardians, doesn't mean that they don't have rights. Why is this basic concept so difficult for you to accept?

Sorry, Anne, its all in your mind.  Kids in my state anyway don’t have any rights until the turn 18.  So if you are referring to 18 year old kids then yes they have rights.  If you are saying that younger kids can determine their own medical treatment, have sex with adults, drop out of school or choose what to put in their bodies then no I don’t believe they should have those rights.
They have basic human rights because they are little humans.

This opens up a huge discussion which many people have taken sides.  If an adult is mentally ill and is described by doctors to be “child like”, does this mean he needs special protection?  Should he be able to fend for himself and make medical decisions or does he lose some of his rights and turn them over to someone else?

So you see it goes way beyond just yours and my interpretation and our general positions on the topic and it is not as black and white as you may think.



...

[Anne Bonney]

Doesn't matter what you believe. Children have rights. Period. Just because their parents are the guardians, doesn't mean that they don't have rights. Why is this basic concept so difficult for you to accept?

Sorry, Anne, its all in your mind.  Kids in my state anyway don’t have any rights until the turn 18.

So you're free to beat and starve your child if you feel like it?  That wouldn't violate their civil rights?  Really?

So if you are referring to 18 year old kids then yes they have rights.  If you are saying that younger kids can determine their own medical treatment, have sex with adults, drop out of school or choose what to put in their bodies then no I don’t believe they should have those rights.

Where did I say that?

They have basic human rights because they are little humans.

Yes, they do.

This opens up a huge discussion which many people have taken sides.  If an adult is mentally ill and is described by doctors to be “child like”, does this mean he needs special protection?  Should he be able to fend for himself and make medical decisions or does he lose some of his rights and turn them over to someone else?

So you see it goes way beyond just yours and my interpretation and our general positions on the topic and it is not as black and white as you may think.

Even mentally ill people have rights Whooter.  They don't forfeit them because they're sick.  Children have rights. They have the right not to be beaten.  They have the right not to be starved.  They have the right not to be hiked or restrained to death.  Why is this concept so difficult for you to accept?

[Troll Control]

The circumstances of this death mirror so many others.

Note that when it was clear Sergey was in real trouble, the staff's first call was NOT to 911, but to the program management. They did not have the child's best interests in mind, but the program's.

Despicable.

Interesting also that the sheriff is recommending charges agains the Aspen corporation, as well as the individual staff members.

My deepest sympathies to Sergey's family.   I can't imagine this brings them any peace, but I hope they can find some consolation.

Auntie Em

Auntie Em is spot on.  This kid was killed by Aspen Education the same way they have killed other children - through abuse and neglect.  They abused him physically until he collapsed and neglected him while he died painfully from a totally preventable cause.  

I agree with the sheriff in this case - Aspen employees should be charged with murder.  Here's to hoping the DA has some balls.

[Whooter]

So you're free to beat and starve your child if you feel like it? That wouldn't violate their civil rights? Really?

I think you are starting to see the point.  The kids are covered under basic human rights because they are humans.  But they have no rights of their own based on their child status.

Even mentally ill people have rights Whooter. They don't forfeit them because they're sick. Children have rights. They have the right not to be beaten. They have the right not to be starved. They have the right not to be hiked or restrained to death. Why is this concept so difficult for you to accept?

Starving and abuse comes under basic human rights.  This applies to all humans big and small.
Mentally ill people do have rights.  But some need to have decisions made for them.  Some mentally ill people have family members look after them and make medical decisions for them (and therefore lose their right to decide for themselves in this area)  etc.



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[Anne Bonney]

It's so similar to most of the deaths caused by and in these places.  

Aaron Bacon at Northstar - http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html

Roberto Reyes at Thayer - http://www.caica.org/ROBERTO_REYES_deat ... atment.htm

Michelle Sutton at Summit Quest - http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/Remembe ... utton.html

Anthony Haynes at America’s Buffalo Soldiers Re-enactors Association - http://www.nospank.net/n-n79r.htm

Chase Moody, Jr. at On Track Wilderness Therapy - http://www.caica.org/DEATHS%20Chase%20Main.htm



Some restraint deaths....

http://www.statesman.com/specialreports ... cases.html



Chase Moody, 17 -     Oct. 14, 2002  -    On Track wilderness program

Maria Mendoza,14  -    Oct. 12, 2002  -    Krause Children's Center    

Cedric Napoleon, 14  - March 7, 2002 -     Mason Middle School      

Latasha Bush, 15  -    Feb. 14, 2002
(Died three days after incident)             Daystar Residential Center    

Stephanie Duffield, 16  -    Feb. 11, 2001 -     Shiloh Residential Treatment Center
   
Willie Wright, 14  -    March 4, 2000 -     Southwest Mental Health Center    
 
Randy Steele, 9  -    Feb. 6, 2000  -    Laurel Ridge Hospital    
             
Jerry McLaurin,   14  -    Nov. 2, 1999  -    New Horizons Ranch      
                   
Demetrius Jeffries, 17  -    Aug. 26, 1997 -     Crockett State School
                     
Roshelle Clayborn, 16  -    Aug. 18, 1997  -    Laurel Ridge    
                             
Bobby Jo Randolph, 17  -    Sept. 26, 1996 -     Progressive Youth Center      
                 
Eric Roberts, 16  -    Feb. 22, 1996  -    Odyssey Harbor    
                             
Dawn Renay Perry, 16  -    April 10, 1993  -    Behavior Training Research Center
   
Anthony Green, 15  -    May 12, 1991  -    Brookhaven Youth Ranch        
           
Diane Harris, 17  -    April 11, 1990  -    Seguin Community Living Center
   
Brandon Hadden, 18 -     1988  -            Texas Neurological Rehab Center

[Anne Bonney]

I think you are starting to see the point.

Fuck you.

 

The kids are covered under basic human rights because they are humans.  But they have no rights of their own based on their child status.

Yep, so where did I say they had anything different?

Starving and abuse comes under basic human rights.  This applies to all humans big and small.

Yes, it does.  Which is why hiking or restraining them to death violates their rights.