Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

[Troll Control]

I think it's a great idea to put up a TheWho FAQ's page.  You could categorize it and provide his stock answer along with the debunking for various topics.  Great idea.

Two posts above I referenced "HLA" in the abuse hotline story, but it was actually ASR, where TheWho sent his daughter.  Here's what he has to say about the potential of a counselor sexually abusing a child at ASR, where there is no abuse hotline as required by Mass law:

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible.  The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also...  The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a �Hot Line� to be installed in the school.

2.  How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

That's really all you need to know.  TheWho advocates silencing abuse victims and protecting their abusers.  Plain and simple, folks.

Wow....that is pretty fucked up!

Indeed it is, Anne.  Whooter is a child abuse/neglect/murder apologist.  He makes his living off Aspen Education and other programs.  He has a deep need to spin to protect his income.  He's nothing more than shill placed here to disrupt, deny, dissemble, deflect and deter.

I'd like to know what happened to Psy's outrage at his shilling and why he gave up on holding douchebag Whooter accountable for his nonsense.

[Whooter]

I'm not afraid of anything.  I'm annoyed with your constant deflection.  It's difficult to have a civilized discussion about the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.

So out of 12 pages you cant find a single post which I was doing damage control for the industry or running this off topic.  If you see me do it then call me on it and point out the post.  Dont make generalizations you cannot support.   Otherwise lets keep the focus on Sagewalk and Sergey.


One of the areas we were getting into was the motive(s) of the staff who were with Sergey at the time of his death.  I think we can all agree that these EMT (trained) employees didnt wake up that morning and plan to murder Sergey.  So if it wasnt intentional then it must have been due to lack of training or not having the proper tools to do their job.  I found it interesting that they didnt feel it necessary to stop when Sergey started vomiting.  This may be a typical side effect for kids on their first day and therefore didnt raise a red flag for them.

It would be helpful to know what they were thinking when they called home base and to know exactly what the nurse told them.



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[Anne Bonney]

[
So out of 12 pages you cant find a single post which I was doing damage control for the industry or running this off topic.  If you see me do it then call me on it and point out the post.  Dont make generalizations you cannot support.   Otherwise lets keep the focus on Sagewalk and Sergey.


One of the areas we were getting into was the motive(s) of the staff who were with Sergey at the time of his death.  I think we can all agree that these EMT (trained) employees didnt wake up that morning and plan to murder Sergey.  So if it wasnt intentional then it must have been due to lack of training or not having the proper tools to do their job.  I found it interesting that they didnt feel it necessary to stop when Sergey started vomiting.  This may be a typical side effect for kids on their first day and therefore didnt raise a red flag for them.

It would be helpful to know what they were thinking when they called home base and to know exactly what the nurse told them.



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It's difficult to have a civilized discussion about the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.

[Whooter]

[
So out of 12 pages you cant find a single post which I was doing damage control for the industry or running this off topic.  If you see me do it then call me on it and point out the post.  Dont make generalizations you cannot support.   Otherwise lets keep the focus on Sagewalk and Sergey.


One of the areas we were getting into was the motive(s) of the staff who were with Sergey at the time of his death.  I think we can all agree that these EMT (trained) employees didnt wake up that morning and plan to murder Sergey.  So if it wasnt intentional then it must have been due to lack of training or not having the proper tools to do their job.  I found it interesting that they didnt feel it necessary to stop when Sergey started vomiting.  This may be a typical side effect for kids on their first day and therefore didnt raise a red flag for them.

It would be helpful to know what they were thinking when they called home base and to know exactly what the nurse told them.



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It's difficult to have a civilized discussion about the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.

I am sorry you feel so threatened by people with differing points of view then your own.  But I do agree (and understand) that if you cannot be civil in this particular discussion, because of my personal views, then it is better for you to back away.



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[Anne Bonney]

I am sorry you feel so threatened by people with differing points of view then your own.  But I do agree (and understand) that if you cannot be civil in this particular discussion, because of my personal views, then it is better for you to back away.

Just stop it already.  I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick.  There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.  I mean really....where do we go from there?  You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up?  You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.

[RTP2003]

I am sorry you feel so threatened by people with differing points of view then your own.  But I do agree (and understand) that if you cannot be civil in this particular discussion, because of my personal views, then it is better for you to back away.

Just stop it already.  I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick.  There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.  I mean really....where do we go from there?  You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up?  You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.

You hit it right on the head, Anne.  This post should be a standard reply to Whooter's nonsense.  Can I cut and paste it as a generic response to him?  It is a fitting reply to 99% of his posts.......

[Anne Bonney]

I am sorry you feel so threatened by people with differing points of view then your own.  But I do agree (and understand) that if you cannot be civil in this particular discussion, because of my personal views, then it is better for you to back away.

Just stop it already.  I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick.  There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.  I mean really....where do we go from there?  You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up?  You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.

You hit it right on the head, Anne.  This post should be a standard reply to Whooter's nonsense.  Can I cut and paste it as a generic response to him?  It is a fitting reply to 99% of his posts.......

Feel free darlin'!

[Whooter]

Just stop it already. I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick. There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights. I mean really....where do we go from there? You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up? You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.

I don’t decide if children have rights or not, the law does.  They have human rights because they are little humans and should have protection from harm, fed etc..  But they don’t (and in my opinion shouldn’t) have childrens rights….the right to free speech, to vote, choose their religion, medical decisions etc.
How can we give a child the right to free speech before they can talk?  How can we allow children to just decide to stay home from school at age 7 and drink beer all day?  How can we give 12 year olds the right to have sex with 6 year olds?  How can we allow children to decide to have an operation or not, go to boarding school, see a therapist?

The people throughout history that have always been threatened by those with a different opinion then their own have been close minded and ignorant and they usually started a war with them because they couldnt understand.    People who are open minded are curious when they encounter another person with a different point of view.  People like yourself run away and/or ridicule them out of fear.

So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?”  How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Troll Control]

They have human rights because they are little humans and should have protection from harm, fed etc..

But that doesn't square with Aspen Education's view of children.  In their view, children should be starved and force marched in the desert like Sergey was.  If you believe children should be protected from harm you'd be advocating shutting down any and all facilities that use methods unproven by the scientific method, which is all of them.

[Whooter]

DHS regulations for wilderness schools require all students to be offered no less than 3,000 calories of food per day. Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit. Hmmm...2 cups of food, heavy exercise.... Not enough food = neglect = violating DHS regulations = endangering the welfare of a minor! Do the math below Whooter!

The two cups that were offered was for one meal (not the entire day), you might have been confused there.  Sergey wasn’t with Sagewalk the whole first day so probably ate breakfast with the transport guys prior to getting there.

There wasn’t any indication that Sergey was exercising at all.  1,200 to 1,500 calories isnt abusive if you are sitting around all day.  The key is if he were getting enough fluids and electrolytes to detox his system.  This is more important than food the first day or two, the kids typically have plenty of fat on them to burn off.

Refuting Whooter's (John David Reuben founder of STICC) claim "There wasn’t any indication that Sergey was exercising at all."

Timeline

*On Aug. 27, 2009:between 5:30 a.m. and 6:30 a.m., two “transporters” contracted by SageWalk woke Blashchishen at his home in Portland to take him to SageWalk, according to the affidavit.

*On Aug 27, 2009:  Blashchishen arrived in Redmond around 9 a.m. and was later transported to a medical facility for blood tests and a drug screening, according to the affidavit.

*On Aug 27, 2009: Around 1 p.m., Blashchishen was blindfolded and put in a vehicle headed to the school’s base camp in Lake County.

*On Aug 28, 2009: 11:45 a.m., Blashchishen, the other students, and three staff members had breakfast and set off for a hike south of Hampton.

*On Aug 28, 2009: Just after 2 p.m., staff members called the school’s field supervisor to report that Blashchishen had vomited, but the hike continued.

*On Aug 28, 2009: Less than a half-hour later, about one mile from where the hike had begun, Blashchishen collapsed and lay on his back in the sun.

*On Aug 28, 2009: One staff member told Poré that by the time Blashchishen stopped breathing, he’d been thinking about calling for help, but had not. At 2:36 p.m., staff members called a school nurse, who then told another staff member to call 911.  In the affidavit, Poré wrote that the call came much too late.

Refuting Whooter's (John David Reuben founder of STICC) claim "1,200 to 1,500 calories isnt abusive if you are sitting around all day. "

State of Oregon DHS regulations for wilderness schools require all students to be offered no less than 3,000 calories of food per day.

Whooter I'll be back to refute more of your drivel later.

Refute away....   thats what this forum is for......Thanks for the timeline, Joel.  This helps to lay it out a little better.

My thinking at this point:

The day he arrived at base camp (27th) he didnt do any hiking.  Just got blood tested, checked in and driven up to base camp to meet the other kids in the afternoon.  I dont think a person needs 3,000 calories for that, although, who knows he might have had 4,000 calories because we dont know what he had for breakfast or later that day (after the 2 cups of lentils).  I didnt see it listed.

The day he died he had breakfast at 11:45 am and then headed out for his hike and died before lunch time.  So I dont see how calories were a factor here.  With heat exhaustion I would be more interested in how much fluids Sergey was taking prior to the hike.  I know from personal experience that once the body gets behind and dehydrated it is hard to hydrate the system especially while you are still hiking.
I would focus on the water intake.



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[Anne Bonney]

So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?”  How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?

No, that's not what I said or meant, but you knew that already.  Twist away asshole, twist away.

People, like you, who don't believe that children have rights are really, really fucked up.

Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights. Maybe the staff called  911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem.  So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?”  How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?

No, that's not what I said or meant, but you knew that already.  Twist away asshole, twist away.

People, like you, who don't believe that children have rights are really, really fucked up.

Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights. Maybe the staff called  911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem.  So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.

Every time you dont understand something you accuse them of twisting.  Go back and read the conversation, it hasnt changed.  "I dont believe children have any rights".

and Yes, you have a hard time with people who dont agree with you or think the same way you do.  You think I am really, really fucked up because I dont believe children have rights.  You should find other people who think just like you do and speak to them and I bet you will feel much safer.
There are people that have totally different believes than me but I find their reasons interesting, not threatening.  I dont think they are necessarily screwed up, but I am curious on why they think the way they do.  I dont shun them.  

If I speak with an atheist or someone who worships the sun or the moon... someone who goes to AA or believes in the orange papers or people who believe in corporal punishment ... I dont view them as messed up just because I dont understand their point of view.  I ask questions and try to gain a better perspective myself on why they think that way.  I feel bad that you have locked yourself away in a box.



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[Whooter]

Whooter can you admit Sagewalk Wilderness School (Aspen Education Group wilderness program) made a serious mistake?  

I think I made it clear several pages back that Sagewalk was responsible for this boy when he died.  Sergey was in their care and therefore responsible for his death.
But that doesnt help the next kid going out to wilderness camp.  We need to understand what caused Sergey to die.  Why didnt all the kids die?  Why just Sergey?  What could have been done differently which would have saved his life and how do we change that and apply it to other wilderness camps?

These are the questions I am looking to find answers to from the investigation.  Without them another kid could die tomorrow.



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