Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Anne Bonney]

Personally I see a single person expressing his opinion and a whole group of followers here on fornits treating it as gospel and dropping before his feet.

So, we can't really believe or trust the word of the investigating officer (who you refer to as " a single person", conveniently leaving out that he is the investigating deputy), yet.....

 There were 2 EMT’s on the hike with these kids.  How could these symptoms get past them?

You're totally fine with listing the "counselors" (I wonder what they're counseling credentials are?) as "EMTs" when it only said they had EMT training.  Now, it could be that they actually are EMTs, but if they were, you'd think it would plainly state that they are "certified EMTs"....not the ambiguously phrased "EMT trained".  But that's par for the course for them.  And you.

[Whooter]

Please don't insult with "Anyone who cares about Sergey should be wondering the same thing I am" line of thought. Whooter educated people on this website can only help you piece together so much of the puzzle. People have made several good points per your questions in this thread and I don't have the energy to spoon feed the obvious to you.

So you are not interested in finding out what went wrong and fixing it for the next child.  You would be happy in just shutting the place down….. Interesting.

Whooter your "lol" line of logic is warped and I am at a loss for words. Sell your line of "lol" logic to Sergey Blashchishena's parents and let us know how they feel. As far as your second question, it will help children from dying. I don't think people on this website can explain it to you any better than that. The death of Aaron Bacon, Sergey Blashchishena and hiring of Eric Henry justify the State of Oregon shutting down Sagewalk. Aspen Education Group doesn't have a colorful record in the State of Oregon Whooter. Mount Bachelor also got caught with their pants down when they knowingly abused children.

What about kids in other programs?  If we understand what went wrong we can help others.  Shutting down a program doesn’t help anyone.  The kids just get shifted to another wilderness program.  Why cant you look past your own agenda and think about the kids themselves.  Who cares what programs open and which close as long as we can put corrective action in place across the board to keep them safe.  We cant do this until we know what went wrong.



...

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

So, we can't really believe or trust the word of the investigating officer (who you refer to as " a single person", conveniently leaving out that he is the investigating deputy), yet.....

Exactly,  what the deputy can do is make a recommendation.  There are several other agencies investigating this childs death also.  We should wait for all the facts to come in.

You're totally fine with listing the "counselors" (I wonder what they're counseling credentials are?) as "EMTs" when it only said they had EMT training. Now, it could be that they actually are EMTs, but if they were, you'd think it would plainly state that they are "certified EMTs"....not the ambiguously phrased "EMT trained". But that's par for the course for them. And you.

I think training is going to be a central part of what went wrong.  The investigators will surely sort out what type of training the staff had and how it was applied.  Should each group have a certified EMT?  Should all staff have basic training in first aid or EMT training?  If the investigation concludes  that having a “Certified” EMT would have saved Sergey then we have our root cause?  (and possibly corrective action?)  If training was not the central issue then they will need to look elsewhere.



...

[Anne Bonney]

So, we can't really believe or trust the word of the investigating officer (who you refer to as " a single person", conveniently leaving out that he is the investigating deputy), yet.....

Exactly,  what the deputy can do is make a recommendation.  There are several other agencies investigating this childs death also.  We should wait for all the facts to come in.

You're totally fine with listing the "counselors" (I wonder what they're counseling credentials are?) as "EMTs" when it only said they had EMT training. Now, it could be that they actually are EMTs, but if they were, you'd think it would plainly state that they are "certified EMTs"....not the ambiguously phrased "EMT trained". But that's par for the course for them. And you.

I think training is going to be a central part of what went wrong.  The investigators will surely sort out what type of training the staff had and how it was applied.  Should each group have a certified EMT?  Should all staff have basic training in first aid or EMT training?  If the investigation concludes  that having a “Certified” EMT would have saved Sergey then we have our root cause?  (and possibly corrective action?)  If training was not the central issue then they will need to look elsewhere.



...

[Whooter]

What about kids in other programs? > The death of Sergey Blashchishena will be a sad tragic reminder for programs to get their shit together, start following the law and taking child safety very seriously. As far as your agenda question Whooter, I speak for the victims now. I worked enough in the TTI to see what really goes on.

You have no idea what you are talking about,Joel.  Which law do they need to follow?  What specific law did the program not follow that caused Sergeys death?  How do you define “Very seriously”?  How about “very, very seriously”  would this save more lives?....  “Or very, very,very serious”?
Do you see my point?

We cant just shoot a letter off to the program telling them they are all set as long as they take safety seriously from now on.  Come on Joel, you know better than that.  We need to know what caused the child to die… who dropped the ball and which events (if corrected) would have saved his life.



...

[Anne Bonney]

http://cafety.org/privately-funded-prog ... tion-group

The students later had a meal of rice and lentils. Though some students were allowed to ask for up to five cups of food, Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit.


What's the purpose of that??



Poré wrote that SageWalk staff members could not provide information about what else, if anything, Blashchishen ate before the meal of lentils and rice. He wrote that the boy could have had as few as 400 calories during the day.  :eek:


Just after 2 p.m., staff members called the school’s field supervisor to report that Blashchishen had vomited, but the hike continued.


That right there should have set off very loud alarm bells in the minds of these "EMT trained" staff.  But no, they wait til he stops fucking breathing......


“This was not a call in progress explaining that Sergey was doing weird things and then during the conversation he collapsed,” Poré wrote. “This call began with the announcement of the cessation of life and the beginning of CPR. This is a call that should have gone first and directly to 911.”


It appears that the behavioral focus is placed maybe above the medical focus in the food chain, and you end up with situations where the counselors, the people involved with the camps, are involving straightforward medical symptoms and signs in an attempt to shape behavior, and they should be responding more properly to medical issues.” ~ Attorney for Sergey's parents.


“The pattern suggests that SageWalk, as a day care facility having a seemingly special right to press children to their maximum and beyond, is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,” Poré wrote. “(My) interviews strongly suggest that, at least for the last nine months, SageWalk may have taken children to the precipice of disaster and been lucky. On Friday, August 28th, 2009, this luck ran out.”



"Special right to press children to their maximum and beyond".   That, I believe, is one of the core faults.  Programs seem to subscribe to the belief that the end justifies the means.

[Whooter]

What's the purpose of that??

Not sure,  They ate the same thing when my daughter attended SUWS of the Carolinas

That right there should have set off very loud alarm bells in the minds of these "EMT trained" staff. But no, they wait til he stops fucking breathing......

Well, I think it may just come down to training of these staff people.  Although vomiting the first day out might be normal or non life threatening.  I am not trained in this area.

"Special right to press children to their maximum and beyond". That, I believe, is one of the core faults. Programs seem to subscribe to the belief that the end justifies the means.

Right after that he says:…. , is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,” Poré wrote.

I think this may have  played into the reason they didn’t call 911 earlier.



...

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Anne Bonney]

Not sure,  They ate the same thing when my daughter attended SUWS of the Carolinas

What's the purpose of the newcomer getting less to eat than someone who'd been there a while?

Well, I think it may just come down to training of these staff people.  Although vomiting the first day out might be normal or non life threatening.  I am not trained in this area.

Obviously.  I'm not either but even me, as a layperson, can recognize the beginning stages of heatstroke.  Most anyone with even a modicum of decency or compassion would, especially in light of the fact that this is being done in the heat of the desert, err on the side of caution.

"Special right to press children to their maximum and beyond". That, I believe, is one of the core faults. Programs seem to subscribe to the belief that the end justifies the means.

Right after that he says:…. , is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,” Poré wrote.

I think this may have  played into the reason they didn’t call 911 earlier.

Yep, it sure did.   Because the staff's first thought is to call other program staff (the "oh shit, maybe we really fucked up" realization)....not to get medical help.  They've been trained to regard these kids a just a buncha spoiled druggie kids and to regard any complaints that the kids have about treatment as manipulation.  Hell, we were flat out told that we didn't have any rights.

[Whooter]

What's the purpose of the newcomer getting less to eat than someone who'd been there a while?

Not sure…..  Could be part of the detox or a cleansing process of some sort.

Obviously. I'm not either but even me, as a layperson, can recognize the beginning stages of heatstroke. Most anyone with even a modicum of decency or compassion would, especially in light of the fact that this is being done in the heat of the desert, err on the side of caution.

I would too (err on the side of caution), but it is possible that a high percentage of kids vomit their first day out and therefore wasn’t that unusual.  People detox and cleanse primarily through their pores, vomiting and urine.  Although vomiting should raise a red flag in my opinion and warrant close attention, especially in the heat.  The more I talk about it the more I feel the staff were not trained properly for this.

Yep, it sure did. Because the staff's first thought is to call other program staff (the "oh shit, maybe we really fucked up" realization)....not to get medical help. They've been trained to regard these kids a just a buncha spoiled druggie kids and to regard any complaints that the kids have about treatment as manipulation. Hell, we were flat out told that we didn't have any rights.

Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights.  Maybe the staff called  911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem.  So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.



...

[Whooter]

The students later had a meal of rice and lentils. Though some students were allowed to ask for up to five cups of food, Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit.


What's the purpose of that?

[/i]

Anne I can' t offer you a good explanation, besides the program is fucked up, even though I  worked for a wilderness program.  The children under my care ate well, including on wilderness trips.  The exceptions being when they threw food all over the chuck tent or messed up cooking their meals during cook outs.  The supervisors would bring down mac 'n cheese for 12 people, milk and bread rolls.  I will say two cups is neglect and cruel.

Why would 2 cups be considered neglect and cruel?



...

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010