LAYNE MEACHAM and PROCTOR ADVOCATE, YES FAMILIES

[Inculcated]

This thread is kinda silly, good laughs, Klingon proverbs, idle threats with misused legal jargon, and a wild bear.

[psy]

It's either one of the dumbest program folk or one of the funniest trolls i've ever seen.  Bravo.  10/10.

Yes.  Ursus = Phil Elberg.  Go sue him and see what happens!  Sue Sue Scheff as well while you're at it!

[psy]

Why aren't you willing to disclose why the treatment program was indicated for Ursus or Warbis anyone else.  Why are you not making that public.

It is.  Use the search feature.  Pretty much everything you've asked can be found with the search feature or through google.  The case number for the Benchmark case can be found on the initial complaint which you can search for on the forum.  All the court documents are up here as well as most of the declarations and so forth.

Also, if you've read carefully, i've said next to nothing at all about Meacham and have not commented as to the truth of Ursus's statements other than to make some legal notes on them.  Stop accusing me of being prejudiced while simultaniously accsuing everybody on the forum of being drug users or having conduct disorder.  It makes you look bigoted.

I also make fun of all religions or any faith without reason in general, including atheists.  It's all in good fun.  Magic underwear is funny.  If you can't take a joke...

[Anonymous]

magic underwear is very funny.
 Um...Psy, FmyI boxers or breifs?

[Anonymous]

HEY PSY, are you there?  My name is Anti Defamation and I am an alcoholic....now its your turn Psy, who are you and why are you here, be honest and brief.

What is a screed?  Hip me up dude.   Do you mean like screeding cement, or that I am just too wordy for a little pseudo elitist like you. Do you have low self esteem.  Did you know that prisoners have the highest self esteem in the population at large?  Your photo looks a little narcisistic and arrogant.  You won't respond because you are a worm not a big bad bear like ursus. You guys remind me of some  pseudo intellects I use to know down in the Haight in the 60's that just hung around  doin a little weed and trying to get someone to stroke them for their ridiculous poetry.  Are you a poet Psy.  Do you use a French address to try to impress your buddies on this site.    Have you developed a whole jargon around this deal in between playing video games and trying to be part of the fornits culture.  Does Fornits make you feel like you belong to a big family of like minded folks.  Do you have a degree in English or are you just putting on a big facade wanting us all here to believe you are brilliant.  Come out and speak up Psy.   Emerson stated that to be a man is to be a non conformist.  Are you a non conformist or just a coward?  The problem is if you respond, I might respond and make you feel bad.  If you were a "troubled kid" maybe your ego is too fragile to take me on.  Maybe you and your Fornits bigotted buddies are better hidden away where you can witch hunt and black list people without ever having to look them in the eye.  Come out of your hole and share.  Were you a kid in a program or not?  Emerson stated that you should one day state strongly your beliefs and then the next day exclaim just as strongly an opposite belief.  Why don't you share some of your poetry with us and your contemporary volcabulary.  Have you published?  Will you ever or do you have a little circle there in France that puts you at the center of the discussion at the Cafe while you guzzle double lattes.  Cmon Psy let me have it, be a little bit more of a bear.  And as far as the big bear being a thorough researcher, let me know when he posts the dockets of plaintiffs who have sued Mr. Meacham for abuse.  Also let me know when he demonstrates that Mr. Meacham ever met this Newton dude.  I just noticed there is a phone number for this Newton.  I am going to call him and see if he know any of you cats and maybe we can (with your written permission) publish your histories.  Does anyone have this Newton guys phone number, I would like to meet my old Mentor for the first time.

Carry on dude

(p.s. why were you placed in treatment?  Was it for marijuana fun?  Do you still use Marijuana?  Cmon share, my name is Anti Defamation Association and I am an alcoholic......there, now its your turn psy, cmon the first step is to just admit it......this little farse you have carried on for 2-3 years is only a cover for your unresolved issues.   Why won't you give us all some background that will let us have insight into why you hate non abusive treatment programs for drug dependant persons.

ANTIDEFAMATION ASSOCIATION

[Inculcated]

Nah, none of that was worthwhile.
Boxers or Briefs is a good question, though.

[psy]

HEY PSY, are you there?  My name is Anti Defamation and I am an alcoholic....now its your turn Psy, who are you and why are you here, be honest and brief.

Hi, i'm Michael Crawford and I am not nor have ever been an alcoholic or addict.  I am here because I was placed in a facility on false pretenses based on false advertising.  There was no due process so anything I was accused of doing is pretty much irrelevant.  During the time in the facility I went through some bad things (detailed on my website).  I'm here because it's still happening both at Benchmark and elsewhere and i'd like it to end.

What is a screed?  Hip me up dude.   Do you mean like screeding cement, or that I am just too wordy for a little pseudo elitist like you.

I don't remember using that word, don't know what it means (if anything), and if I used it it was most likely a typo.

Do you have low self esteem.  Did you know that prisoners have the highest self esteem in the population at large?  Your photo looks a little narcisistic and arrogant.

Really?  I just liked the image composition and tonal balance.  I'm told I look cute in that picture.  You can infer what you wish but it doesn't make it accurate, as with any interpretation of any piece of art.

You won't respond because you are a worm not a big bad bear like ursus.

No.  I won't respond to questions that are answered elsewhere or stuff you can find on your own very very easily.

You guys remind me of some  pseudo intellects I use to know down in the Haight in the 60's that just hung around  doin a little weed and trying to get someone to stroke them for their ridiculous poetry.  Are you a poet Psy.

If I write poetry or something like that it's likely going to be something i'll keep to myself.

Do you use a French address to try to impress your buddies on this site.

No.  I have a french address since I live in France currently.

Have you developed a whole jargon around this deal in between playing video games and trying to be part of the fornits culture.

No.  I try to discourage use of any jargon if anything.  It creates a sense of elitism which I don't like since it's not very welcoming to others.

Does Fornits make you feel like you belong to a big family of like minded folks.

Sometimes.  I have friends here, yes.

Do you have a degree in English or are you just putting on a big facade wanting us all here to believe you are brilliant.

I have an associates in computer programming and a BA in Arts and Visual Technology with a concentration in digital art.  My portfolio is here.

Come out and speak up Psy.   Emerson stated that to be a man is to be a non conformist.  Are you a non conformist or just a coward?

Well.  That's a false dichotomy but I like to think that I think for myself.  I listen to others opinions but ultimately I make up my own mind.

The problem is if you respond, I might respond and make you feel bad.

That's very very hard to do.  You have no idea what false things have been said about me on this site and elsewhere on the web.  The best reaction is just to ignore it.  People who say hurtful things are usually fishing for a reaction.  It's that realization that keeps me calm.

If you were a "troubled kid" maybe your ego is too fragile to take me on.

You can try me.

Maybe you and your Fornits bigotted buddies are better hidden away where you can witch hunt and black list people without ever having to look them in the eye.

I'm not the anonymous one here.  Why not state your name.  Hell.  Give me a phone call at 571 277 5341 or 802 332 6472.

Come out of your hole and share.  Were you a kid in a program or not?

Yes.  Benchmark Young Adult School.

Emerson stated that you should one day state strongly your beliefs and then the next day exclaim just as strongly an opposite belief.

My opinions have changed over the years, yes, but I don't believe Emerson is correct if he was implying you should state you believe something simply to be provocative.

Why don't you share some of your poetry with us and your contemporary volcabulary.  Have you published?  Will you ever or do you have a little circle there in France that puts you at the center of the discussion at the Cafe while you guzzle double lattes.

No I have not published, do not have a circle in french cafés, and espressos are more my style, unless i'm at home where I brew the coffee that is roasted and ground at a little place around the corner.

Cmon Psy let me have it, be a little bit more of a bear.  And as far as the big bear being a thorough researcher, let me know when he posts the dockets of plaintiffs who have sued Mr. Meacham for abuse.

I'm sure he'll get around to it.

Also let me know when he demonstrates that Mr. Meacham ever met this Newton dude.  I just noticed there is a phone number for this Newton.  I am going to call him and see if he know any of you cats and maybe we can (with your written permission) publish your histories.

Sure.  Sounds like yet another opportunity to sue Miller Newton.

Does anyone have this Newton guys phone number, I would like to meet my old Mentor for the first time.

Use the search function.  His phone number and address are on this forum.

(p.s. why were you placed in treatment?  Was it for marijuana fun?

Two sentences explanation: My parents and I were having some rough times due to different opinions on religion, sexuality and politics.  They were convinced by an educational consultant that Benchmark was a boarding school.  It wasn't quite what any of us expected but by the time I was there communication was cut off and...  well read my website and my full story is elsewhere on this forum.  Search my posts and look for the older ones.

Do you still use Marijuana?

No.  Not that what I choose to put in my own body is any of your business.

Cmon share, my name is Anti Defamation Association and I am an alcoholic.

Good.  Go have a drink on me.  Remember.  You're powerless.

there, now its your turn psy, cmon the first step is to just admit it.

Admit what?  You want me to admit to a problem I don't have so you can then treat that nonexistant problem.

.this little farse you have carried on for 2-3 years is only a cover for your unresolved issues.   Why won't you give us all some background that will let us have insight into why you hate non abusive treatment programs for drug dependant persons.

I have no problem with treatment as long as it's done with fully informed consent.  My full opinions on this topic are all over the forum.  Use the search function.

[Anonymous]

Psy you, like the man before the saducees and pharasees have impressed me.  I'm no longer pissed off at you, but I will not make you my David Koresh like some of the others have on this site.  You honestly forthrightly responded to a perfect stranger and gave me private information.  This tells me you do have introspection and probably are a very interesting guy.  Now I can tell you who the real masked man is....I am Meacham.  But I have never been so knocked on my ass with the honesty you respond with and how open you are.   I hate lock ups.  If they would have put me in Benchmark when I was 15 instead of the state Juvenile Prison (Utah Territorial Reform School) I would have torched the place and helped guys like you run!  We could have taken the staff's car and headed for the Haight, which I did.  They could not of held me and lock ups  should not exist except for a very small percentage of kids that are going to really put a hurt on someone like the dudes I worked with in Maximum Security prisons in the condemned men's unit.  I will say that I have never laid a hand on a kid, or sexually or physically abused a kid.  I have cussed a lot around them and used a lot of peer pressure, but never tried to take their dignity.   And I have been wounded by the false accusations coming from kids but also healed by kids that accredit my 12 step oriented program (harsh but not abusive) with helping them fulfill their dreams.   last month a prominent 36 year old woman was presenting to the legislature, she is now an important real estate broker and millionaire and came right out of the committe room and hugged me over and over.  I admire your tenacity and if the Bear is as forthright as you and he has his motives in the right place he is ok too.

When I am wrong I admit it and I believe I was wrong about you and I appologize.

I was selected as one of Utah's 100 most honored living artists by the 2002 Winter Olympics Cultural Olympiad.  You can google Utah Artist Project to see some of my work.  I  have murals in Westminster College, Utah State University, Utah Museum of Art, the Springville Museum and other county and state facilities.  Check it out and let me know what you think.  I am heavily influenced by Dubuffet and James Havard.

I will be heading for Cartegena Colombia  in a few years so I can leave it all behind.

Bien, amigo me despido por ahora,

Layne Meacham LCSW

[psy]

Psy you, like the man before the saducees and pharasees have impressed me.  I'm no longer pissed off at you, but I will not make you my David Koresh like some of the others have on this site.

Well. I try to discourage that sort of thing as Antigen did to me.  I once tried to put her up on a pedestal until she made it clear that she had no interest in being any sort of leader and would rather I come to my own conclusions.

You honestly forthrightly responded to a perfect stranger and gave me private information.  This tells me you do have introspection and probably are a very interesting guy.  Now I can tell you who the real masked man is....I am Meacham.

NO... really?!!  LOL.

But I have never been so knocked on my ass with the honesty you respond with and how open you are.   I hate lock ups.  If they would have put me in Benchmark when I was 15 instead of the state Juvenile Prison (Utah Territorial Reform School) I would have torched the place and helped guys like you run!

A cynical mind inside me wonders whether that is an attempt to empathize and incite reciprocity.  Interrogation tactic.

We could have taken the staff's car and headed for the Haight, which I did.  They could not of held me and lock ups  should not exist except for a very small percentage of kids that are going to really put a hurt on someone like the dudes I worked with in Maximum Security prisons in the condemned men's unit.  I will say that I have never laid a hand on a kid, or sexually or physically abused a kid.  I have cussed a lot around them and used a lot of peer pressure, but never tried to take their dignity.

I have no doubt what you say is accurate.  I'm not one to claim that all program directors have nefarious intentions.  What I question is whether good intentions can be even worse sometimes.

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis - The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment

And I have been wounded by the false accusations coming from kids but also healed by kids that accredit my 12 step oriented program (harsh but not abusive) with helping them fulfill their dreams.

And I have no doubt you believe you've helped kids and maybe you have in some cases.  However, I would pose you the question as to whether some of the kids could conceivably been scarred by the harsh treatment?  Maybe you consider it acceptable risk?  I would also question whether what you call "harsh" could be interpreted as abuse those who might have been hurt.  Confontational, Synanon style attack therapy doesn't have a good reputation in that area.  I believe that treatment should be consensual and without even a remote possibility of causing harm.

This sort of sums up what I think about that:

"To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. But to be punished, however severely, because we have deserved it, because we ‘ought to have known better’, is to be treated as a human person made in God’s image."  - C.S. Lewis - The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment

I believe that people should be judged by their actions and not what they put in their own bodies.  I see it as irrelevant.  I'd rather see punishment (even jail time) than forced treatment.  Forced treatment is basically just incarceration plus a re-education component anyway.  Messing with free will under such circumstances with such tactics used in many programs is not something that rubs me the right way.  I also believe in the Harm Principle and self ownership.

"That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." - John Stuart Mill - On Liberty

If you think i'm just angry or whatever, you're wrong.  I was a good while ago but i've dealt with it.  All i'm trying to do now is to facilitate discussion on the issue which I believe will eventually bring change.

last month a prominent 36 year old woman was presenting to the legislature, she is now an important real estate broker and millionaire and came right out of the committe room and hugged me over and over.  I admire your tenacity and if the Bear is as forthright as you and he has his motives in the right place he is ok too.

He does have good motives, as do most here.  The way I see it, most on both sides want the best for the kids.  We just have differing opinions on how to go about doing that.  If Ursus made a factual error, i'm sure he'll correct it.

When I am wrong I admit it and I believe I was wrong about you and I appologize.

Well.  Apology accepted.

I was selected as one of Utah's 100 most honored living artists by the 2002 Winter Olympics Cultural Olympiad.  You can google Utah Artist Project to see some of my work.  I  have murals in Westminster College, Utah State University, Utah Museum of Art, the Springville Museum and other county and state facilities.  Check it out and let me know what you think.  I am heavily influenced by Dubuffet and James Havard.

Cool.  I'll check that out.

I will be heading for Cartegena Colombia  in a few years so I can leave it all behind.

Bien, amigo me despido por ahora,

Layne Meacham LCSW

[Ursus]

Ah, mannnn... now why'd ya have ta spill the beans so soon, Layne? Guess I better get down to business right quick, eh?

Might as well start somewhat at the beginning; how about here:

Maybe you should do some checking about this Meacham which you have done your little witch hunt on, and black listed in your little irrelevant web site.

Did you know that he was locked up in a Juvenile state reform school just for running away from home and being ungovernable (and doing a few doobies and brewskies once and a while). They routinely beat him with a clip board to the head, slapped him in the face. When he finally escaped he ran up a half frozen canal and fell into the freezing water, caught pneumonia and then was placed in the hole where the windows were broken and the snow would blow in on him. He had to sleep on a steel strapped cot with no mattress and just a dirty old army blanket in his skivies (sp?) He spent the rest of his life trying to close state institutions and reform schools. He was admitted at Colombia University and studied community organizing from the same folks that mentored Obama. He worked for the National Center on Institutions and Alternatives and got them funding to close Utah's 100 year old reform school where kids as young as eight had been sexually molested by staff. But we never here you mouthing the state Gulag's only the private ones.

I hate lock ups. If they would have put me in Benchmark when I was 15 instead of the state Juvenile Prison (Utah Territorial Reform School) I would have torched the place and helped guys like you run! We could have taken the staff's car and headed for the Haight, which I did. They could not of held me and lock ups should not exist except for a very small percentage of kids that are going to really put a hurt on someone like the dudes I worked with in Maximum Security prisons in the condemned men's unit.

As to Layne Meacham's infamous difficulties with Utah's reform school system: yes, I did know. And I found it rather telling that ADA choose to relate said paragraph ... just after I made reference to "The Equalizer."

I'm not sure how frequently Layne Meacham chose to refer to himself that way, but he did so in an article from 1988 which also discussed these same events from his youth.

My guess is that these events colored Meacham's take on ... what best might be done for other kids in same or similar shoes. Care to share some more insight on these watershed years, Mr. Antidefamation Assoc./Meacham?

[Anonymous]

The question comes down to what would you do with your 16 year old son or daughter that was having sex with a meth dealer that was was 33 years old and giving her venereal warts and keeping her strung out on meth.   A little one on one with a empathic counselor usually doesn't do the job.   So you as a parent are realistically looking at options.  Do you put them in Benchmark or with the wing flappers in Straight.   I say neither.  I say you leave them home and do in home support with therapists, rec therapists, tutors and good LSAC's that understand 12 step.   However where some of the Fornit philosophy goes south is the idea of purely and solely voluntary treatment for adolescents.   If you do nothing other than one on one counselling each week your kid is going to probably going to end up in Youth Corrections which is not good.  They will then through the force of the Court put them in a State Lock Up with a lot tougher kids, they are mini prisons.  Undergraduate for the Prison.  Soooooo we have to look at community based alternatives that work and don't hurt the kid.   But if your philosophy is just do nothing, you give all the credibility to the PURE folks.   When I worked for the National Center out of Boston we showed the state how to deal with the toughest kids in the community, but sometimes you literally have to hold a kid.   Not beat him, or call him dirty names but set some limits.  If Fornits is not advocating limits the only audience you will have is disgrundled former inmates of the horse shit wilderness and private lockups and of course the Straight alum. (remember I still didn't get the arm flapping).   So we have PURE and Fornits on the extreme side of the continuum.  We need to see what treatment is acceptable.  I cannot accept that you have to have treatment purely voluntary for an addicted 15 year old.  They developmentally cannot cognitively have enough introspection.  On the other hand I don't believe you should lock a kid up for being gay or for being a communist.

What do you think

What kind of white paper could you deliver at a US conference that would protect the kids 14 amendment rights and yet save his life without the State slamming the kid into a lock up shit hole for a year or two.  

Carry on,

Dubuffet (new name)

[psy]

The question comes down to what would you do with your 16 year old son or daughter that was having sex with a meth dealer that was was 33 years old and giving her venereal warts and keeping her strung out on meth.   A little one on one with a empathic counselor usually doesn't do the job.   So you as a parent are realistically looking at options.  Do you put them in Benchmark or with the wing flappers in Straight.   I say neither.  I say you leave them home and do in home support with therapists, rec therapists, tutors and good LSAC's that understand 12 step.

I think most on this site would agree with you, though i'm partial to non-12-step treatments.  12 step treatment sees drug use as a disease in itself.  I see it as a symptom of deeper problems.  If you deal with the cause you get rid of the effects.  I think an empathic counselor can go a long way in that regard, even if you don't.

However where some of the Fornit philosophy goes south is the idea of purely and solely voluntary treatment for adolescents.   If you do nothing other than one on one counselling each week your kid is going to probably going to end up in Youth Corrections which is not good.  They will then through the force of the Court put them in a State Lock Up with a lot tougher kids, they are mini prisons.  Undergraduate for the Prison.  Soooooo we have to look at community based alternatives that work and don't hurt the kid.   But if your philosophy is just do nothing, you give all the credibility to the PURE folks.

Opinions on this site vary wildly on what to do but personally, my phillsophy is not to do nothing, but to convince a person that change is a good idea.  That can be done in any number of ways and I don't think it requires any sort of harsh intervention.

See.  The way I see it, and 12 step would probably agree, is that you can't force a person to admit they have a problem and doing so will likely only be temporary.  True change has to come from within.

When I worked for the National Center out of Boston we showed the state how to deal with the toughest kids in the community, but sometimes you literally have to hold a kid.   Not beat him, or call him dirty names but set some limits.  If Fornits is not advocating limits the only audience you will have is disgrundled former inmates of the horse shit wilderness and private lockups and of course the Straight alum. (remember I still didn't get the arm flapping).   So we have PURE and Fornits on the extreme side of the continuum.  We need to see what treatment is acceptable.  I cannot accept that you have to have treatment purely voluntary for an addicted 15 year old.  They developmentally cannot cognitively have enough introspection.

I'd have to disagree there.  I think that teenagers are often impulsive and wild, but I don't think they're incapable of looking at themselves and realizing where they might be headed.  I think it is possible to convince a person that change could be a good idea...  and if they don't agree...  Well. Some kids just have to learn the hard way.  The way I see it programs only postpone that and give the kids an identity as "sick".

Here is sort of how I feel about the whole issue in terms of what is a good idea to help the kids:

http://www.peele.net/lib/panic.html

On the other hand I don't believe you should lock a kid up for being gay or for being a communist.

Yeah, but there is no due process to prevent that from happening and many facilities are more than happy to comply.

What kind of white paper could you deliver at a US conference that would protect the kids 14 amendment rights and yet save his life without the State slamming the kid into a lock up shit hole for a year or two.

Well.  My argument would be controversial, even here.  I think that if kids harm others they should be punished for it, not treated.  If a kid steals a car, don't say the disease made them do it and give them an excuse.  Punish them for the choice while encouraging them that they can change.  The criminial justice system is no picnic for kids, sure, but at least it respects a person's self determination, something that forced treatment generally does not.

[Ursus]

Well, I'm not sure that I can address everything in your post at the moment, Dubuffet, but I do wish to clear up a misconception ya might be having about the PURE folk. Maybe ya don't have a misconception, and I'm simply misreading ya. At any rate, it bears repeating in case someone totally new to this is reading along...

If I recall correctly, that acronym stands for Parents' Universal Resource Experts, and they are about as lily-white as the evil stepmother was, not at all like Snow White.

PURE used to stand for Parents' Universal Referral Experts, and that is precisely what they actually do, both back then as now. You could say they are bounty hunters of a sort, referring parents to programs which then give PURE a (substantial) "finder's fee" for directing said parents their way.

Psy has a nice site on Sue Scheff's shenanigans in case you want to check that out some more...

[Ursus]

However where some of the Fornit philosophy goes south is the idea of purely and solely voluntary treatment for adolescents. If you do nothing other than one on one counselling each week your kid is going to probably going to end up in Youth Corrections which is not good. They will then through the force of the Court put them in a State Lock Up with a lot tougher kids, they are mini prisons. Undergraduate for the Prison. Soooooo we have to look at community based alternatives that work and don't hurt the kid.

Here is where you touch on some of what I wanted to pick your brain about. What was going on in Utah during the 1970s that made you try to create a Straight-based program (sans the arm flapping) as an alternative? From what I've read, you were not exactly alone in thinking that the brutal "prisons for kids" of the juvenile justice system were not getting the job done.

"Community-based" or not, what was so substantially different about your programs than juvie when it came to the coercion level employed? In fact, it would appear that your programs were more coercive (albeit perhaps less physically restrictive) than what went on in juvie.

Ironically, or perhaps not, Utah today seems to be a mecca for coercive programs of every shade and hue. It is home to more programs than any other state by a landslide.

[Anonymous]

Ursus, I am think I can offer some history and insight into the evolution of the treatment philosophy and so on and will be happy to answer any question you may have.  However I would ask that like Psy you give me a little back ground on yourself, afterall I don't want this to be a deposition or a Bill OReiley interview.  

A lot of the treatment folks would say you are seeking revenge and are angry because of your own experience as a former Straight or Kids alum or Wilderness escapee or whatever.   Psy was so forthcoming and open I completely changed my perspective about him and I don't think he was working me.  The original trigger that started all this was your definitive statement that I had been sued (civil action) for abuse.  So we need to dispose of that matter, but even more importantly are you willing to share as Psy and I have about your treatment experience.  You seem way to passionate about all this stuff to just be a guy that found a cause he liked and jumped on the band wagon.  Have you ever been in Straight or another program or has your kids or what?

I think some positive stuff can come from this as I have over 45 years experience of either being in the system or working to keep kids out of the system, so can you share a little about your background and prior history with programs?