Author Topic: This forum, Now and then  (Read 40017 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2009, 06:25:36 PM »
:bump:  oh not the flowers   just like when i was a kid always following my brother around, sigh...... is that better greg  you can see it is  susan now right???? :rofl:  :roflmao:  :rofl:
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2009, 08:23:45 AM »
I read the old stuff, and think the new stuff rocks.....sigh...... :twofinger: Keep up good work on this forum its the best thing that has ever happened , thanks, about time the abusers get  a little Koollllllllll- aid, of their own. :rasta:
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2009, 08:27:17 AM »
Susan you nare so clever & witty none will ever know that your the guest.  Simply sneaky .  

Love Ya,
CindyLou
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Offline psy

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2009, 02:52:16 PM »
Quote from: "Cyndeelouwho"
When it felt safe, I jumped in and maybe my words were biting and childish and vulgar, but like all of you "old timers", I was venting just as you did years before me.

Ya.  I think that's how it goes for most people and I don't think it's fair to shut people up just because they're angry and feel like expressing it in an "offensive" manner.  That seems awfully program like to me.  When I found this forum I felt it was a great relief to vent, even if it might have made some others feel uneasy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
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"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2009, 02:56:09 PM »
Quote from: "susantoo"
here's my defintion of objective (which is what I was aiming for, so, thanks for recognizing it):

Not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
In other words, not human.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Inculcated

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2009, 03:10:55 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Ya.  I think that's how it goes for most people and I don't think it's fair to shut people up just because they're angry and feel like expressing it in an "offensive" manner.  That seems awfully program like to me.  When I found this forum I felt it was a great relief to vent, even if it might have made some others feel uneasy.
I wonder. Is that understanding of personal expression going to be misinterpreted as a green light to continue to flood inanities?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
“A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free”  Nikos Kazantzakis

Offline Anonymous

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2009, 03:13:08 PM »
I know Barker was not human, I know that already, where do  all go from here??? How was your trip? I read you went on vacation.
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Offline psy

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2009, 03:21:23 PM »
Quote from: "GregFL"
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: "susantoo"
Quote from: "psy"
Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..

. Now, can you find any logical flaw in Psy's take?



I could spend quite a bit of time picking it apart, especially his gratuitis re-definition of  the geneally accepted meaning of "forum troll" to suit his point, but generally the implication is 1) don't trust a leader, moderation is subjective and isn't 'fair' 2) trust a system instead, see the objective results!

This neglects the fact that the system can be manipulated, in absense of a leader ie: moderator

But that's precisely the beauty I see in it.  Anybody can "manipulate" the system, influence the discussion, etc...  Everybody has a fair shake in that and nobody has a upper hand.  It's up to each individual reader to determine whether a person is a "troll", playing devils advocate, or talking to himself as you imply.  I like to think people on this forum have gotten pretty good at detecting that based on writing style, post timings, and other clues.  It doesn't exactly require a moderator and the mystery adds a certain intrigue to the discussion and attunes one's senses to bullshit.

Quote
by people who want the system to fail, thereby rendering the system a failure.  Example a) this forum in its current state.

OK.  So what is your definition of a forum as a success?  By the mere act of defining that you're influencing the dialogue in a direction you choose...  Instead of letting the people decide what is relevant and what is not you're implying they're not mature enough to do it for themselves.  Benevolent monarch, maybe, but a monarch nonetheless.

Quote
This neglects that if a forum wants an open discussion, and 100 people with opinion A pile on every new person with opinion B, that no constructive OPEN conversation will occur.

But opinions have changed and the zeitgeist of the forum does shift.  People with powerful opinions and arguments can influence others.  Example:  When I came to this forum nearly everybody viewed parents as intrinsically misguided and evil for sending their kids to program.  Over time, that has changed significantly as posters have been exposed to information regarding exactly how parents are fooled, how thought reform works, etc.  I'd like to think the forum as a whole learns, and I think that can only truly happen when nobody interferes with the "thought process"...  even with the best of intentions.  Sure, it can be harsh, but i you can wade through the BS, there are a lot of gems on this forum an a lot of real discussion.

I was thinking in the car today.  I find it sad that so many people no longer seem able to absorb and process unfiltered information on their own...  they want some moderator to filter it into an easily digestible piece of text.  well...  there is nothing about this industry that is easily digestible and I think filtering out the muck takes the authenticity out of the discussion.  As it is, i feel this is a pure snapshot of the troubled teen industry with all the crazy and fallout preserved on both sides.  Sure it's not for everybody, but i feel it's an important lesson to re-learn how to look at everything as a whole and meditate on it without having some sort of babysitter.  Even the crazy, even the trolls, have meaning if you reflect on it.  You might not see it and it might be direct, but those posts are in some way a result of this industry, and without that, the snapshot would be doctored and the warts airbrushed off.


Quote
Moderating forums is tricky and can result in even worse results than an unmoderated forum if the forum leader is not benevolent and unbaised in his/her moderation.  In addition it is mostly less than thankless. you open yourself up to attacks continually deal with spam and idiots, and of course the pay is atrocious.  The net is swamped with examples of bad forums.  Forum moderation with rules that apply to everyone in my opinion yield the best results, especially when you want open conversation from all sides of a discussion.  The forum now obviously isn't looking for that and shouts down contrary opinions. It seems like you guys want a anti-program party and not a discussion, and that is fine.

If that were the case, why not moderate the forum to delete any mention of anything remotely pro-program...  and nobody would ever know?  If the majority of posters here are anti-program that merely reflects the majority opinion.  Sometimes the minority is "shouted down", yes, but there is nothing stopping a minority opinion from sticking it out and influencing the majority.  It's happened before.

Quote
Just please  if you have the time archive the forum at the point I left, and rename the new forum "I  hate the seed and dare you to come in here".   That would be more honest.

No, it it would not be honest since anybody can post anything here... positive or negative.  The only reason the anti-seed posts are more prevalent at the moment seems to be because somebody new is here who is angry.  That happens.  If you feel so strongly about it, why not bump some old threads you really like and continue other discussion.  Maybe the person currently posting hasn't read those and might find it cathartic or somehow healing.  You get more with honey...  Or to use a video game analogy: use way of the open palm rather than the closed fist.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2009, 03:23:02 PM »
Quote from: "::nouvellefille"
I know Barker was not human, I know that already, where do  all go from here??? How was your trip? I read you went on vacation.
The trip was fantastic, thanks!  I'll probably post some photos later in the CAN forum.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline GregFL

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2009, 03:24:44 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "susantoo"
here's my defintion of objective (which is what I was aiming for, so, thanks for recognizing it):

Not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
In other words, not human.


To view anything objectively requires a human, Psy.  If we are talking about conversations (not concrete objects) without a sensient being to make a determination objectivity cannot exist.  It is a concept, and concepts don't exist outside of a mind to determine (subjectively) whether or not a conversation is objective or not.  The philosophical definition of objective (this is afterall what we are talking about) generally speaking is  "Independent of anyone's personal viewpoint."

Does an objective conversation flow from an unmoderated forum, one  where people who understand computers better can gain the upper hand?  Where people who will visciouly attack others can scare away those that don't?  Where the majority can rule by bullying tactics?

Does an objective conversation flow from a moderated forum where rules of conduct are established and applied evenly to everyone?

The answer is no, not in either case.  Subjectivity always creeps in.  The question then is which system allows for a greater likelyhood of a (mostly) fair conversation?


This is a matter of opinion that Ginger and I have disagreed over for years.  As a former ADMIN of fornits (the guy who used to do the thankless job you do now) I know first hand how hard it is to just control spam, let alone moderate a conversation.  For you to claim the unmoderated fornits site yields objectively fair conversations is beyond subjective, it is naive and would only be an opinion of someone filtering these conversations thru their own bias.  Fornits has always been populated by a group of somewhat angry people placed in abusive programs that pile on and personally attack  anyone who comes in with a contrary viewpoint.  Understandable or not,  that undermines immediately any hope of an objective conversation unless someone institutes rules to stop it and applies them across the board. This is extremely difficult as I will attest to.

I understand philosophically why Ginger wants an unmoderated forum, just please stop calling it objective.  That is beyond silly.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 03:51:39 PM by GregFL »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2009, 03:29:13 PM »
Cool, nice meeting you I am new, I bet it seems you were gone forever, lol, question, because I am new, are you a Barker fan, and either way, I will still love to see the pictures, glad someone is doing something fun with their lives, and hope you had a good time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2009, 03:47:21 PM »
Quote from: "psy"

OK.  So what is your definition of a forum as a success?
 

The prior forum.


Quote

  Example:  When I came to this forum nearly everybody viewed parents as intrinsically misguided and evil for sending their kids to program.  Over time, that has changed significantly as posters have been exposed to information regarding exactly how parents are fooled, how thought reform works, et

Your contributions notwithstanding, this is not true. As an example, 9 years ago we had a computer converance with a founder of the Straight and no one even suggested he was evil.  Misquided maybe, but hell they all were. There are still those today, some on this forum right now, who think they are evil people and somehow were immune to the processes.

 In addition,  we were exporing thought reform and how it works almost ten years ago.

Quote
 I'd like to think the forum as a whole learns, and I think that can only truly happen when nobody interferes with the "thought process"...  even with the best of intentions.  Sure, it can be harsh, but i you can wade through the BS, there are a lot of gems on this forum an a lot of real discussion.

And someone is always interfering with the thought process when people take the focus off the subject and start threatening others, insulting their families, and generally purposely ruining the conversation. You seem to imply purity of conversation exists when no rules of engagement are established.  You ignore the totality of human nature when you do so.

Also, sure you can wade thru the bullshit  if you can take the pain. Many people won't/can't and they leave the conversation. There is a growing list of them.  As trolls take their place, the forum becomes more unruly.  

Quote
I was thinking in the car today.  I find it sad that so many people no longer seem able to absorb and process unfiltered information on their own...  they want some moderator to filter it into an easily digestible piece of text.  well...  there is nothing about this industry that is easily digestible and I think filtering out the muck takes the authenticity out of the discussion.  As it is, i feel this is a pure snapshot of the troubled teen industry with all the crazy and fallout preserved on both sides.


You preface your sentences with "I feel".  We both have subjective opinions, no?


 
Quote




Quote
Just please  if you have the time archive the forum at the point I left, and rename the new forum "I  hate the seed and dare you to come in here".   That would be more honest.

No, it it would not be honest since anybody can post anything here... .


No, it would be more honest.  What you have now is a blended conversation.  Archiving the old moderated forum at the point it stopped being moderated and starting the new one from there would make it clear to all which conversation they were in.   This is unprecendented in Fornits history, and I understand the request would take some work, but I would appreciate it in light of the years I spent nurturing the former conversation.


And In conclusion I would like to say thank you Psy for being the admin of fornits.  You have brought a lot to the table and it is guys like you that will bring this topic forward. I don't have to always agree with you to respect you.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 03:56:34 PM by GregFL »

Offline GregFL

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2009, 03:49:27 PM »
BTW, please excuse any formatting errors.  Something is wrong when the paragraph gets below a certain point it is very hard to see and type.  Is this some sort of bug?
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Offline psy

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2009, 03:52:40 PM »
Quote from: "GregFL"
BTW, please excuse any formatting errors.  Something is wrong when the paragraph gets below a certain point it is very hard to see and type.  Is this some sort of bug?
I don't see any formatting errors.  It might be your browser. Which browser are you using?  Firefox 3.5.? here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

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Re: This forum, Now and then
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2009, 03:56:41 PM »
Quote from: "GregFL"
There are still those today, some on this forum right now, who think they are evil people and somehow were immune to the processes.
Sure there are, but you don't help those people to understand by shutting them up and say "you can't express that opinion".  You try to influence them through reason, information sharing, etc... and if they choose not to accept it, it's still a valid opinion.  Just because you and I might understand how staff were influenced and so forth doesn't mean that's necessarily the truth...  its' just our beliefs and others should be free to feel the staff were demon possessed if they so choose.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)