the dangers of equating AA and programs

[Anonymous]

Ok. Let’s look at your allegations and the study:

(Vallient worked in a) 12 step treatment centr (his patients were)indoctrinated into AA in Vaillant's treatment centre

The clinic was not “12 step based.” There was no “indoctrination.”

Description of Cambridge Hospital from GV, history of Alcholism:

(During their stay the patients spent much of their time in detox often requiring) “750 mg or more clohriazpoxide.” “All patients received individual counselling and two to three hours of films and group discussion a day. An internist educated patients about medical issues on alcohol and abuse” [Alcoholics anonymous style meetings] “were held twice a week.” (P191) [So, the clinic sample attended 1 meeting while at the hospital.]”CASPAR was designed on a medical model, was based in a general hospital and was directed by an internist. The program included round the clock walk in counselling to patients and relatives, “wet” and “dry” shelter, groups and immediate access to detoxification and to medical and psychiatric consultation (349)
He mentions his freind had success in A.A., a place so different than]“the acceptable medical environment of CASPAR” (p349)

He does not believe that the course of alcoholism in invariably death or abstinence, and wasn’t telling his patients that, as you imply.

“The third illusion (of alcoholism) is that alcoholism must end in death or abstinence.”(p197)

The clinic incorporated a variety of treatment approaches, according to V

It was an 8 year outpatient study of AA.

No, it was an 8 year study of alcoholism in general, CASPAR health network, a variety of treatment approaches, and clinical intervention.

Here is part of the description of the outpatient portion of the study:

After discharge, all patients knew they could return to the program as outpatients at no cost and without appointment.”(And have access to the treatment options described above) The patients were all encouraged to attend [conventional] groups; [at which they were referred to] A.A groups. Patients were also made aware of other treatment options …halfway houses, drop in centres, freestanding detoxification units and integrated mental health facilities Our sample when they relapsed continued to have multiple therapeutic contacts with our program. Multiple informants were used, and the records of four alcoholic counselling programs were reviewed [not A.A.] Over eight years, we could identify, for the average subject, 15 admissions for detoxification and at least as many visit to emergency rooms or counselling centres.”

Because many treatment options were available, G.V was able to say:

 Overall, however, treatment “other than AA did not significantly improve the subjects’ outcome.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:Qmc ... cd=1&gl=us

[Anonymous]

So, let’s look at your misrepresentations:


Misrepresentation 1)

A study done by George Vaillant (an AA World Services trustee) at Harvard University found that AA was no more sucessful than no treament at all. HE (an avid AA supporter) wrote:
After initial discharge, only five patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment were no better than the natural history of the disease…

Your quote is care of “Orange” who presents a paragraph and misrepresents its subject. The quote comes from “the doctor’s dilemma” chapter, where G.V. responds to the idea that since there is no known cure for alcoholism, it is pointless to provide care for alcoholics.

(My dilemma is should I) ignore a chronic malady as painful to the individual as damaging to his health, as destructive to his health at alcoholism?

You can take his quote in two ways: a referendum on his inpatient work with the Clinic sample, or as a referendum on the outcome of the Clinic sample as a whole, whose outpatient treatment is described below:

After discharge, all patients knew they could return to the program as outpatients at no cost and without appointment.”(And have access to the treatment options described above) The patients were all encouraged to attend [conventional] groups [at which they were referred to] A.A. groups. “Patients were also made aware of other treatment options “…halfway houses, drop in centres, freestanding detoxification units and integrated mental health facilities Our sample when they relapsed continued to have multiple therapeutic contacts with our program. Multiple informants were used, and the records of four alcoholic counselling programs were reviewed.[not A.A.] Over eight years, we could identify, for the average subject, 15 admissions for detoxification and many visits to emergency rooms or counselling centres.”

p189

Since he speaks of 95% having a temporary relapse (including those who never went to A.A,btw) AFTER discharge, I take that quote as a referendum on his “dilemma as a doctor” who provides perhaps fruitless, expensive emergency care intervention in his clinic, because his patients relapse afterwards, anyway.
That’s why his focus is on temporary relapsing after discharge, not, say, a steady sobriety level years into outpatient treatment—which you would focus on to assess success of outpatient treatment, right?.

If you want to take that as a referendum on the clinic Sample then you are examining the study of CASPAR health network, not A.A.

[Anonymous]

Misrepresentation 2)

(here's G.V. talking about A.A.) I. . . tried to prove our efficacy. Our clinic followed up our first 100 detoxification patients. . . every year for the next 8 years. . . . After initial discharge, only 5 patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking].”

You allege he says only 5 percent of his A.A. clinical sample stopped abusing alcohol.

He did say that.

No, G.V NEVER said only 5% of his Clinical Sample(in which he studies a health network, not A.A.) stopped abusing alcohol

The results of his study of alcoholism and a health network are represented in his graph:


Wiki restates them accurately:
 

At the end of the 8 years, 34% of subjects had achieved stable abstinence, 29% had died, and 26% were still abusing alcohol

Your misrepresentation comes from “Orange” & it is reproduced through –out the web.

[Anonymous]

Misrepresentation 2)

(here's G.V. talking about A.A.) I. . . tried to prove our efficacy. Our clinic followed up our first 100 detoxification patients. . . every year for the next 8 years. . . . After initial discharge, only 5 patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking].”

You allege he says only 5 percent of his A.A. clinical sample stopped abusing alcohol.

He did say that.

No, G.V NEVER said only 5% of his Clinical Sample(in which he studies a health network, not A.A.) stopped abusing alcohol

The results of his study of alcoholism and a health network are represented in his graph:


Wiki restates them accurately:
 

At the end of the 8 years, 34% of subjects had achieved stable abstinence, 29% had died, and 26% were still abusing alcohol

Your misrepresentation comes from “Orange” & it is reproduced through –out the web.

[Anonymous]

Wait.  Now you're saying he did study AA's sucess rate?  LOL.  That's a switcharound right there.  So you can cite that study to show AA works but I can't cite it to show AA doesn't work. I see.  Makes sense!

The study was of alcholism, a health network, all the treatment options within the network and A.A. Because so many pateints were stil alchoholic at the end of 8 years, there is no ringing support in the study for any treatment plan, including A.A. However, of the people who got sober, half used A.A, No other treatment option ranked. That is why GV drew the conclusion

Alcoholics Anonymous appears equal to or superior to conventional treatments for alcoholism

[Anonymous]

I never understood the logic of sitting around with a bunch of ex-drunks, talking about not drinking. It always made we want to go to the bar afterward.

[try another castle]

I never understood the logic of sitting around with a bunch of ex-drunks, talking about not drinking. It always made we want to go to the bar afterward.

this

[Anonymous]

Having spent almost the last two years in outpatient and AA Recovery for Alcoholism, I've come to the conclusion that while AA has its Big Book, 12 and 12 and other Documentation, it really is very open ended. Meaning its like a ball of Clay.
You can take the clay and make out of it what you wish. Apparently there are many who post here that have a lot of Ism's
Well certainly they have a lot of resentments. I dont think the God thing should be as big a deal as everyone makes it.
The founders Bill W and Doctor Bob just happened to be Christians. But they wanted to keep it wide open for anyone to choose what their "Higher power was" It could be just the other people that you share with if you like.
I cant pick up my couch and move it without some help, and I  couldn't stop Drinking without some help.
I do however think that AA CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS. Drug Addict/Alcoholics are very sick people. I am tired of hearing the stories about " My sponsor was a great guy he had 27 years then went out for six months then shot himself"
This means that these people are doing things inside there own heads that isn't very healthy.
I told my sponsor today, Please don't ever feel so bad over a slip, that you would kill yourself.
I would totally rather suck down a few Martinis once in a while rather than put a bullet in my head!
Sorry for rambling and good luck to everyone in their recovery.
By the Way there is another way out you could try the Regenerate Program from NIFAR (National institute for Alcohol Recovery) http://WWW.NIFAR.COM or ORG not sure, just check it out!

[try another castle]

the minute you said "have a lot of isms" I stopped reading your post.

[Anonymous]

Great. I'm glad the thread that makes survivors look like unreliable, ignorant conspiracy mongers is on top of thread list.
I'm gonna start a "did the holocuast really happen?" thread to round everything out.

Rubber Neckers..the survivors who follow the AA=program line of thought are few and far between, last and least. Please recognize, they are NOTHING ALIKE. Programs are brainwashing, imprisonment and torture

[Anne Bonney]

While AA and programs are not exactly alike, there are some striking similarities that make quite a few of us extremely uncomfortable.  I'll never understand this 'no dissent allowed' mindset though.  The AAers (at least most that I've tried discussing this with, save a few exceptions) just cannot tolerate criticism of what they perceive to be their savior.  Just that smacks of program to me.  I don't see AA as a cult per se, but it has some very cult-like philosophies.

[dishdutyfugitive]

I once made a couch out of clay.

Often times I'd spend weekday mornings sipping pachoulli infused, lukewarm Pabst Blue Ribbons whilst watching my Scientology VHS tapes.

Those were the days.

I'm still hoping Tom Cruise and xenon can come over and do some narcissictic clay couch jumping before I have to move it back into my slingblade shed full of biscuits and mustard.

[Anonymous]

there are some striking similarities that make quite a few of us extremely uncomfortable.

Few is the keyword here everybody. There is like five survivors posting on fornits, most of whom were in programs years or even decades ago. If anything it shows that programs are safe, evident by the relatively dismal percentage of people who google "program abused me" and find this website. What's five out of 100,000 percentage wise?....

[Anonymous]

While AA and programs are not exactly alike,

wow, that's QUITE an understatment. I am sorry. I find this minimization of torment and the shocking ignorance /stupidity behind it offensive.

Maybe "all the AAers" don't want to talk about whether or not they are cult members for the same reason you don't want to talk about whether or not you are a druggie: Because the suggestion is rude, presumptuous and just idiotic.

And notice the troll is bumping this thread? yeah, he's doing that for a reason.

[dishdutyfugitive]

there is like

17thousand, hundred extra million reasons....

but there are about 3 or maybe 5 people actually here trapped in the goat corral of the online TBS petting zoo.