Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Facility Question and Answers

drug rehab for 18 yr old????

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psy:

--- Quote from: "Guest" ---
--- Quote from: "psy" ---Answer me this: do you really think the kid is going to do better if:

A. he fails on his own ( IF and that's a big IF ) and decides he needs to help himself
B. somebody says "you will get help for a problem I say you have or else"
--- End quote ---

If he fails on his own, that could mean death depending on what drugs we are talking about.
--- End quote ---

Could (highly unlikely).  But he has a right to screw up his life if that is what he chooses to do with it.


--- Quote ---He might not know that people are willing to help him at that point, or how or where to get help from.
--- End quote ---

Read my last post, second to last paragraph, Italics.


--- Quote ---If you drive drunk and kill someone you are not charged with murder, but with vehicular manslaughter which has a greatly reduced sentence.
--- End quote ---

You got your law screwed up there.  Read up.

Involuntary manslaughter / negligent homicide does not require a person to be drunk (it only requires negligence... for a person to ignore traffic laws, speed, drive crazy, and kill somebody as a result).  Driving drunk is reckless.  Driving with a blindfold is reckless.  Driving while watching TV, doing nails, and talking on a cell phone is reckless.  None of that has the requisite Mens Rea of intent to kill.  If driving drunk always resulted in a reduced sentence, I don't doubt somebody round here would have downed a bottle of vodka and run over a whole slew of program directors and ed-cons a long time ago (@FBI: that was a joke).


--- Quote ---I'd say jail most likely, dead is the worst outcome. These things do happen to people who are addicted to drugs and never get help or change their behavior. Whether I'm right about the kid being addicted or not is irrelevant, because like you said it is up to a doctor to decide, which he will see if entered into a 30 day drug rehab. If he gets a free apartment for him and his friends to get high all day long in until the free money runs out, he will never see a doctor.
--- End quote ---

Oh come off it.  I knew plenty of stoners in college who did just find on their own.  I even knew one guy who was heavy (really heavy) into crystal meth but quit on his own accord (he was the first to suggest to me that NA was cult-like.  at that point I defended it until I did more research).  The "druggies" worked and went to college like everybody else. What they did in their own private home is their business (and certainly not yours).  Whether or not any of them (or this kid) needed/needs help is their decision and their decision alone.  If people are able to smoke pot/do whatever drugs and succeed in life, who are you, I, or anybody, to interfere with that.  Most grow out of it anyway (unless, of course, they get coerced into some cult (and yes, institutional AA fits the criteria for a cult) that convinces them they have a progressive disease that will fucking KILL THEM creating a self fulfilling prophecy spiral of death).


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---Steering is one thing.  Saying "you will do this or else" is another.
--- End quote ---

How else can you get a person addicted to drugs to enter rehab? Drugs have a strong allure and if left to  their own devices, a drug addict will choose drugs over rehab almost 100%.
--- End quote ---

Then that is THEIR CHOICE!


--- Quote ---Not because rehab is such a terrible thing, but because they want to keep getting high. Sure you can just let them be, but with that comes risks. In my opinion, the risk of entering a medically based 30 day rehab is less than the risks associated with doing nothing.
--- End quote ---

Ok.  Back that up with independent studies.


--- Quote ---Again, assuming that the kid h as a drug problem.


--- Quote ---Yes, because first off, it's not my body.  Are you pro life or pro choice?  why?  Secondly, I could not predict the future and there would be no way for me to know whether he would succeed or not.  Fear of the unknown is something that is part and parcel with parenthood.  I've already covered my objections in terms of program success rates.
--- End quote ---

It is your house though as the parent. Are you going to let your kid steal your prescriptions and money from you and still do nothing? Let them stay out for days at a time, coming home only to 'crash' all the while holding steadfast to your ideological objections to 'coercive' drug treatment? For all we know this kid is addicted to meth, which would explain the staying out for days at a time and sleeping all day during crashes.
--- End quote ---

And for all you know, he just doesn't like being around his parents for personal reasons, so he switches his sleep schedule around.  You are speculating.  I offered a solution to teh stealing anyway. Read my last post, second to last paragraph, italics.


--- Quote ---So you can tell the future?  He will fail on his own, with such certainty.  It's almost religious in nature.  Tell me.  Are you an AA/NA/Al-anon member?  You are suggesting estricting somebody from having a chance to make their own decisions because you claim that if they do they will certainly make choices you disapprove of.  Well.  You don't know that.  You really don't.  In any case, the kid has a right to live as he wants on his own (the short term apt until he finds his job is a courtesy).
--- End quote ---

If the kid wanted a job, he could have one while living at home.[/quote]

Why would he if he has no reason to.  Give him a reason: survival.


--- Quote ---The poster said kid dropped out of high school. What makes you think the behavior of the kid will suddenly and miraculously change when provided with an apartment? I don't claim to see the future. I am claiming that a individual prone to using drugs will not stop all of a sudden because they are provided with the facade of a sober life. Yes this kid has a right to live on their own, but the parents are not required to pay for it. No I am not an AA member.
--- End quote ---

Not required, true.  But to selectively withhold support would be to persecute against him for his personal choices about his body.  Read what this guy has to say about it.  Please read it. It might change your mind.

I really hate to question your qualifications (I put more weight on your arguments), but it would help me to understand where you are coming from in this regard.  It does seem you have a lot of pre-existing conceptions about this issue and i'm wondering from where.


--- Quote ---

--- Quote ---Who says he will spend his money on a drug addiction?  
--- End quote ---

The kid's actions tell us. He is willing to steal drugs and money from his family to support his habit.
--- End quote ---

No.  That's speculation.  You don't know why he is stealing, and neither do I. It could be for any number of reasons (pay for a GF's abortion... any number of things).


--- Quote ---That means he is willing to compromise his own morals in order to feed an addiction.
--- End quote ---

That assumes he had issues with stealing from his parents in the first place.  Again, that's speculation.  How many kids nowadays you know who would do that anyway?


--- Quote ---That shows us if he is handed money, that most likely it will go to the drugs.
--- End quote ---

No.  It shows you're really good with speculating.



--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---I'm saying the parents should pay for an apt for a few months, give him some cash to start off (if he chooses to spend it on drugs, that's his business) and let him on his own.  That's not subsidizing anything explicity.
--- End quote ---

It's not just his business, since the family is subsidizing it. What if he overdoses in the apartment from the huge batch of drugs he was able to buy with his cash handout?
--- End quote ---

That would be a tragedy, but ultimately his decison.  Again, I recommend you read that salon.com article I linked to above.


--- Quote ---What if he invites his drug abusing friends to live in his apartment and one of them dies? The family would be responsible.
--- End quote ---

Not true.  It would be the fault of whatever idiot put too many drugs in his body.


--- Quote ---Instead of setting up such a failure-prone situation, why not use the same money and energy to help them enter into treatment. They can offer the apartment and money when the kid shows they want, and are ready to start a normal sober life. Until then, it would just be another setting for the same behavior to continue.
--- End quote ---

Of the kid, realizing he has to hit the ground running and has to get a job to support himself, could start looking at life from a more responsible perspective.  He might land a decent job, get out, meet people, increase his self esteem, decide to quit whatever he is doing on his own.  There are any number of scenarios here, but the kid is an adult and he should be able to choose how he wants to live his life, whether that be sober or not.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---It's saying "here is an opportunity to make something of your life.  Here is an apartment and some cash.  Do with it what you will.  This is the last you will get from us  We will love you always and if you ever feel like you need comfort or aid, we will always be here to comfort and love you, but we can no longer have you in the house because of your theft.  You have a right to put what you want in your own body, but should you feel you need help, will will support you in a rehabilitation program of your choosing.
--- End quote ---

I think that is a noble idea, but it has to happen after the drug rehab. Otherwise the drug abuse will continue in the new apartment, and he will spend the cash on drugs. Not because he is a horrible person, but because that is how drugs work. They are addictive and people choose drugs over a normal and stable life. You can't buy your way out of drug addiction, you have to work on yourself first, and then rebuild your life.
--- End quote ---

Again, I would have to strongly disagree with you on that, as well as on your concept of addiction (see the article I linked to).  I wonder where you got such concepts.  Again, I would love to know a little more about your background in this area.


--- Quote ---We really are saying the same thing, but disagree on the particular details of the method. Providing an apartment and money is coercion just as my advice earlier.
--- End quote ---

Well.  Not really. I'm suggesting just giving it to him as a parting gift with no strings attached (something he can make a life off) and letting him go on his own from there, to succeed or fail.


--- Quote ---You also say that it's okay to kick the kid out because of theft. Well then why not get them into treatment, and treat the cause for why the theft occured in the first place.
--- End quote ---

speculation


--- Quote ---It's sort of like you want to ignore the drug component of the equation and fix the rest.
--- End quote ---

That's correct. Because I see blaming the drug as a scapegoat...  a way to skirt personal responsibility.  At the same time, I don't think it's anybody's business what he puts in his body. If he can use drugs and do well... more power to him.  If he fails and feels drugs are causing him problems, he might want to quit on his own.  Again, I know guys who have done that off some pretty hard drugs, but you never hear about that from the 12 step crowd since they claim it's impossible as a matter of dogma.


--- Quote ---I am saying the drug component is the cause of the rest, solve that, and the other problems will be no more.




--- Quote ---It's not ignoring it.  It's dealing with it.  If he's not in the house he cannot steal from them.  I am not suggesting asking him to move out because of what he chooses to put in his body.  I am suggesting the parents ask him to move out because of the stealing. that is it.  What he chooses to put in his own body is irrelevant to his actions.
--- End quote ---

What he puts in his body is the cause of his actions.
--- End quote ---

Again, read this article on that, if you haven't clicked on my links yet.  The guy interviewed more or less has very similar views to mine.
 

--- Quote ---You say it's okay to kick him out for stealing, but then say it's necessary to provide an apartment free of charge and cash for a couple months. This doesn't make any sense to me.
--- End quote ---

Well.  Throwing him out on the streets is unfair and guarantees failure.  I think that's cruel of a parent to do.  I believe when a kid leaves the house, he should at least have a chance at success.  That's why I suggest the apt.


--- Quote ---Giving him money will stop the theft, only because you are paying him off. That's sort of like paying money to street-living heroin addicts so they don't steal from the surrounding citizens and businesses. It solves the problem of theft and crime, but does nothing to solve the underlying problem of why the individual was required to steal in the first place. They can't work because they are addicted to drugs, but they need money for drugs, so they steal. You remove the drug component from that equation and the other problems solve themselves.
--- End quote ---

Coincidence does not mean causality.  The crime/drug relationship is not as simple as you describe.  I'd be glad to debate you on that, but in another thread.  For now, if you haven't yet read the salon article, I highly recommend reading it as the author being interviewed says what I am trying to say with far more eloquence.

http://archive.salon.com/health/books/2 ... index.html

Anonymous:
Interesting article, however I disagree with it's assertion that addiction is a choice. Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people who die of lung cancer each year, the thousands who die of illicit drug overdoses, or the thousands who die of alcoholism. I wish that it were that simple, that all you had to do was change someone's environment and they would be cured. I wish it were as simple as a drug addict wishing and hoping they can get better, and the next day wake up cured from their addiction or compulsion.
But that is not how it works. It sounds good, and is a great theory, but I am doubting the author has very much first hand experience dealing with drug addiction and it's horrific consequences. Print out that article and give it to a twenty-something with no teeth and the face of a forty year old because they couldn't stop using meth, even if they desperately wanted to.

Now maybe this parent will take this radical approach of doing nothing and hoping for the best. If so I wish the best and hope it works. But there is also a tried and true method in place to help people just like her son who is having difficulties and can benefit from outside help.
In this case I think we can agree to disagree. I offered my advice based on what I know. If this kid doesn't have a drug problem, then obviously rehab is not the place for them, but this parent specifically asked about rehab. They said the kid is stealing drugs and money from them. This suggests there is a big problem, and that the kid is already a drug addict, or well on their way to becoming one. If the family steps in now, there is still hope. Or they can kick him out and hope for the best. It's their choice.

psy:

--- Quote from: "Guest" ---Interesting article, however I disagree with it's assertion that addiction is a choice. Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people who die of lung cancer each year
--- End quote ---

I would, and I do, and I'm a smoker who chooses to smoke who has had relatives that have died of cancer.  I don't blame it on "addiction".  It would be easy to say "oh well... i'm addicted, I can't quit, so it's not my fault" but that's not really true.  It's the easy way out but I don't believe it's honest.  Truth is, I like cigarettes and I choose to smoke.  I chose to start and I choose to continue.  I choose not to quit since I don't have sufficient reason.  Maybe if I did, I would, but no amount of pressure or threats from parents saying "don't smoke" would ever make me want to quit, which is really what's required to actually quit.


--- Quote ---the thousands who die of illicit drug overdoses, or the thousands who die of alcoholism. I wish that it were that simple, that all you had to do was change someone's environment and they would be cured. I wish it were as simple as a drug addict wishing and hoping they can get better, and the next day wake up cured from their addiction or compulsion.
But that is not how it works. It sounds good, and is a great theory, but I am doubting the author has very much first hand experience dealing with drug addiction and it's horrific consequences. Print out that article and give it to a twenty-something with no teeth and the face of a forty year old because they couldn't stop using meth, even if they desperately wanted to.
--- End quote ---

Did I mention I have a good friend who used to be heavy into meth, and believes that addiction is a choice. He quit.  He was on his own too.  Just decided to quit.  Family could care less what he does.  He went to NA a couple times but was disgusted as he thought it was more of a cult than anything else and left.  But he did quit using meth on his own.  He has a beer once in a while too (though not to excess) so there goes that whole NA religion theory about 100% abstinence and a progressive disease.  He now works for apple and is quite successful.  In NA, that's a ... what's the NA success rate again?  I'll let you bring that up.


--- Quote ---Now maybe this parent will take this radical approach of doing nothing and hoping for the best. If so I wish the best and hope it works. But there is also a tried and true method in place to help people just like her son who is having difficulties and can benefit from outside help.
In this case I think we can agree to disagree. I offered my advice based on what I know. If this kid doesn't have a drug problem, then obviously rehab is not the place for them, but this parent specifically asked about rehab. They said the kid is stealing drugs and money from them. This suggests there is a big problem, and that the kid is already a drug addict, or well on their way to becoming one. If the family steps in now, there is still hope. Or they can kick him out and hope for the best. It's their choice.
--- End quote ---

Look.  I think we've covered most of this, but i'll leave you with this quote from the article which is really what I wanted to highlight:


--- Quote ---You have a right to engage in behaviors of your choice as long as you don't infringe upon my freedom. I think the libertarian dictum that one should be free to do whatever one wants as long as it's not at the expense of someone else is one we should abide by. My right to swing my fist ends precisely at my neighbor's nose; whether I'm using drugs or alcohol is essentially irrelevant. If some family member or friend is self-destructing using drugs, does that cause you harm? It causes you psychological and emotional harm, it's upsetting to you. But is that the same thing as some kind of criminal act? I don't think it is. I think that's part of the price we have to pay in a free society.
--- End quote ---

The kid deserves a chance to make his own life, whatever he chooses that to be.

Anonymous:

--- Quote from: "psy" ---I would, and I do, and I'm a smoker who chooses to smoke who has had relatives that have died of cancer.  I don't blame it on "addiction".  
--- End quote ---

So what do you blame their deaths on? Ignorance? Stubborness? Stupidity?  It's well known how physically damaging cigarettes are for your health. In addition to lung cancer it causes a myriad of other problems, and is one of the leading causes of death. Why would people choose to end their life decades earlier than necessary? What is so redeeming about tobacco? They stink, they are dirty, they cost a lot of money, and on top of all that, they kill you. Why would people smoke if not for being addicted? It stops being cool when you are about 21, so I know that is not the reason.


--- Quote ---It would be easy to say "oh well... i'm addicted, I can't quit, so it's not my fault" but that's not really true.  It's the easy way out but I don't believe it's honest.  Truth is, I like cigarettes and I choose to smoke.  I chose to start and I choose to continue.  I choose not to quit since I don't have sufficient reason.  Maybe if I did, I would, but no amount of pressure or threats from parents saying "don't smoke" would ever make me want to quit, which is really what's required to actually quit.
--- End quote ---

Sufficient reason is that it will kill you decades earlier than if you didn't smoke. Lung cancer is not an easy way to go, that's a good reason to stop right there. It's an empowering thought to declare control over all aspects of your life, but it's just not true. If you smoke regularly, you are addicted, this is proven with science. They've done studies with monkeys choosing a regular supply of cocaine over food, and affection. Addiction is very real.



--- Quote ---Did I mention I have a good friend who used to be heavy into meth, and believes that addiction is a choice. He quit.  He was on his own too.  Just decided to quit.  Family could care less what he does.  He went to NA a couple times but was disgusted as he thought it was more of a cult than anything else and left.  But he did quit using meth on his own.  He has a beer once in a while too (though not to excess) so there goes that whole NA religion theory about 100% abstinence and a progressive disease.  He now works for apple and is quite successful.  In NA, that's a ... what's the NA success rate again?  I'll let you bring that up.
--- End quote ---

I have no idea what the NA success rate is. I never suggested that the parent force the kid to attend NA meetings. They are usually a component within a drug rehab setting, but only a small part of the overall treatment plan. Some people do better being around other sober people and making new friends that have similar goals.
What do you think the success rate for going cold turkey all by yourself is? That is going to be the lowest success rate out of any. Like I said before, it's hard to admit that we are powerless. It makes us feel weak, and not in control of our own destiny. It's empowering to proclaim an addiction as a choice, and most people do. If you ask most smokers why they smoke, I wonder how many are going to answer 'because I'm addicted'. I would expect to hear answers like 'it calms me down' or 'I cant quit or I get fat', but those are not good enough reasons to trade decades of your life. It's addictive, and the addicts are in denial. People in denial make excuses to continue their addiction.



--- Quote ---You have a right to engage in behaviors of your choice as long as you don't infringe upon my freedom. I think the libertarian dictum that one should be free to do whatever one wants as long as it's not at the expense of someone else is one we should abide by. My right to swing my fist ends precisely at my neighbor's nose; whether I'm using drugs or alcohol is essentially irrelevant. If some family member or friend is self-destructing using drugs, does that cause you harm? It causes you psychological and emotional harm, it's upsetting to you. But is that the same thing as some kind of criminal act? I don't think it is. I think that's part of the price we have to pay in a free society.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---The kid deserves a chance to make his own life, whatever he chooses that to be.
--- End quote ---

The kid is an adult, it's their choice whether or not they want to enter treatment. You said the kid should be kicked out for stealing. I say they should use the threat of kicking him out to coerce him into a medically based drug rehab, if the kid will not enter willingly from the get go. Since the end result would be the same if he denies treatment in both our suggestions, I do not see the harm in them at least trying. There is nothing inherently dangerous or damaging about drug rehab, I don't see what the issue is.

psy:

--- Quote from: "Guest" ---
--- Quote from: "psy" ---I would, and I do, and I'm a smoker who chooses to smoke who has had relatives that have died of cancer.  I don't blame it on "addiction".  
--- End quote ---

So what do you blame their deaths on? Ignorance? Stubborness? Stupidity?  It's well known how physically damaging cigarettes are for your health. In addition to lung cancer it causes a myriad of other problems, and is one of the leading causes of death. Why would people choose to end their life decades earlier than necessary? What is so redeeming about tobacco? They stink, they are dirty, they cost a lot of money, and on top of all that, they kill you. Why would people smoke if not for being addicted? It stops being cool when you are about 21, so I know that is not the reason.
--- End quote ---

No, you really don't know that is the reason.  Nicotine is a stimulant that helps me think.  I find I'm more alert on it.  Health concerns?  I've never been much of a health nut.  Just not worried about it, is all.  I'm young and have plenty of time to quit.  I'll quit before i'm 30.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---It would be easy to say "oh well... i'm addicted, I can't quit, so it's not my fault" but that's not really true.  It's the easy way out but I don't believe it's honest.  Truth is, I like cigarettes and I choose to smoke.  I chose to start and I choose to continue.  I choose not to quit since I don't have sufficient reason.  Maybe if I did, I would, but no amount of pressure or threats from parents saying "don't smoke" would ever make me want to quit, which is really what's required to actually quit.
--- End quote ---

Sufficient reason is that it will kill you decades earlier than if you didn't smoke. Lung cancer is not an easy way to go, that's a good reason to stop right there. It's an empowering thought to declare control over all aspects of your life, but it's just not true. If you smoke regularly, you are addicted, this is proven with science. They've done studies with monkeys choosing a regular supply of cocaine over food, and affection. Addiction is very real.
--- End quote ---

Sure physical and even psychological dependance exists, but that's not addiction.  That's an urge.  So is an itch.  Nothing makes you scratch and if you ignore it, it will go away.


--- Quote ---I have no idea what the NA success rate is.
--- End quote ---

What if I told you 12 step treatment actually does more harm than good, that it's sucess rate is equal to or worse than spontaneous remission, and that studies show it can actually increase some types of risky drinking behavior (bingeing).  It's true:

http://www.morerevealed.com/library/coc/chapter7.htm
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html


--- Quote ---I never suggested that the parent force the kid to attend NA meetings. They are usually a component within a drug rehab setting, but only a small part of the overall treatment plan.
--- End quote ---

I would dispute that.  I contend it's a very large portion of treatment.  It can also be cultic in an institutional setting.


--- Quote ---Some people do better being around other sober people and making new friends that have similar goals.
What do you think the success rate for going cold turkey all by yourself is? That is going to be the lowest success rate out of any. Like I said before, it's hard to admit that we are powerless. It makes us feel weak, and not in control of our own destiny. It's empowering to proclaim an addiction as a choice, and most people do.
--- End quote ---

I realize full well the lure of empowerment and the extremes it can be taken to (Eg: lifeSpring, Scientology, other human potential groups), however you seem to swing far to the other end of the scale, proclaiming powerlessness. The truth of it all is somewhere in the middle (see my note on dependence about itching and scratching).


--- Quote ---If you ask most smokers why they smoke, I wonder how many are going to answer 'because I'm addicted'. I would expect to hear answers like 'it calms me down' or 'I cant quit or I get fat', but those are not good enough reasons to trade decades of your life. It's addictive, and the addicts are in denial. People in denial make excuses to continue their addiction.
--- End quote ---

Lol.  If I disagree with you, I must be an addict in denial.  You sure you're not a twelve stepper?  Ok.  I disagree with all that, but even if it were true.  It's still a person's right to choose.  By the way, that whole "admit we are powerless" stuff is just learned helplessness.  There is a real danger in a person who doesn't have a problem (who could quit without aid) "learning" that they cannot control themselves, that death is inevatable, etc.  It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---The kid deserves a chance to make his own life, whatever he chooses that to be.
--- End quote ---

The kid is an adult, it's their choice whether or not they want to enter treatment. You said the kid should be kicked out for stealing. I say they should use the threat of kicking him out to coerce him into a medically based drug rehab, if the kid will not enter willingly from the get go. Since the end result would be the same if he denies treatment in both our suggestions, I do not see the harm in them at least trying. There is nothing inherently dangerous or damaging about drug rehab, I don't see what the issue is.
--- End quote ---

The issue is the coercion, and you don't seem to get why it's wrong to try to control what another person puts in their body.  God forbid you run for public office.  There are enough nannies in government as it is.

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