Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Facility Question and Answers

drug rehab for 18 yr old????

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psy:

--- Quote ---Volunteer medical based drug rehab is not the same as coercive adolescent behavior mod programs. There are some similarities, but grouping them all together as the same is dishonest. The kid is 18, so you cannot force them into treatment, it's up to them whether they want help or not.
--- End quote ---

And yet you suggest number 2 (do this or else).  So If I hold a gun to your head and say "do this or I pull the trigger", you have a choice, right?  If that's your logic than forcing anybody to do anything is impossible.  I'm not against the kid getting treatment if that's what he decides on his own, if that's what he wants.  I'm against forced treatment of any kind whatsoever.  I believe a person owns his or her own body absolutely, and nobody has a right to interfere with what person does with it.  I'm against coercing him into the decision for reasons I have elaborated above, both practical and ideological.  Forced (this includes the coercion you're talking about) treatment does not work.  If the kid, on his own fails and decides he has a problem on his own and wants treatment, then it's far more likely that he'll be able to quit.  If the kid decides to go to AA on his own, after realizing for himself that he has a problem (if he does), than that's his decision. I would highly recommend against it (many better alternatives), given the success rate of 12 step programs, but If it's his decision, so be it.  Have you ever researched the success rate of 12 step programs compared to alternatives or no treatment at all?

Do you have a problem with giving the kid rent in an apt for a few months to get started and letting him live his life as he chooses, as I suggested?  It's giving him a chance to (I hate this term), "sink or swim".

Anonymous:

--- Quote from: "psy" ---And yet you suggest number 2 (do this or else).  So If I hold a gun to your head and say "do this or I pull the trigger", you have a choice, right?  If that's your logic than forcing anybody to do anything is impossible.  
--- End quote ---

Giving them 30 days to move out, or go to rehab is not the same as putting a gun to someone's head. Presenting an adult who is 18 with a choice, to either abide by the house rules and refrain from lying/stealing money and drugs, or move out, is not that much to ask. Being shot and killed, and being asked to move out of your parents house is not an accurate comparison in my view.


--- Quote ---I'm not against the kid getting treatment if that's what he decides on his own, if that's what he wants. I'm against forced treatment of any kind whatsoever.  I believe a person owns his or her own body absolutely, and nobody has a right to interfere with what person does with it.
--- End quote ---

You cannot force an adult into drug treatment, it's not possible unless they are declared mentally unfit by a judge. You can force a kid under 18 into a program. Call up the escorts, and have them shipped away, easy. This is not possible with a legal adult. They must sign themselves in, and they can leave at any time.  


--- Quote ---I'm against coercing him into the decision for reasons I have elaborated above, both practical and ideological.  Forced (this includes the coercion you're talking about) treatment does not work.
--- End quote ---

I disagree. When people are addicted to drugs they are not in a frame of mind to make logical and rational choices. That is why a good person can steal from their family to get drugs or money, because their addiction drives their choices instead of logic. We are all coerced in our daily lives. We don't speed in fear of traffic tickets. We don't skip work in fear of losing our job. We don't kill in fear of jail. Coercion is different than force, and is a part of our daily lives.


--- Quote ---If the kid, on his own fails and decides he has a problem on his own and wants treatment, then it's far more likely that he'll be able to quit.
--- End quote ---

The addiction to drugs can outweigh any concern to get better. This can lead to overdose and death, hopelessness and suicide.


--- Quote ---If the kid decides to go to AA on his own, after realizing for himself that he has a problem (if he does), than that's his decision. I would highly recommend against it (many better alternatives), given the success rate of 12 step programs, but If it's his decision, so be it.  Have you ever researched the success rate of 12 step programs compared to alternatives or no treatment at all?
--- End quote ---

Most drug addicted people do not realize they have a problem, and if they do it is often too late. You can know you're an addict in need of help, and still not do anything about it. I don't see what is wrong with a family steering this person's choice towards treatment. If this was your kid, would you really suggest you just leave it alone? I would beg, plead, and if necessary coerce my kid into drug treatment if they were addicted to drugs and stealing/lying to me to support their habit.


--- Quote ---Do you have a problem with giving the kid rent in an apt for a few months to get started and letting him live his life as he chooses, as I suggested?  It's giving him a chance to (I hate this term), "sink or swim".
--- End quote ---

This would be setting up the kid for failure. We have been told this kid is stealing drugs and money from his family. Setting him up with a free apartment will only make things worse. The apartment will become a 'drug pad' and used until the free money runs out. Rewarding someone for negative behavior is setting the wrong tone.
This is the perfect time for a family to intervene, and make it clear to the kid that they need to change. If they do not change, the family will no longer financially support and subsidize a drug addiction or be lied to and robbed.
 I would only offer this paid-for apartment situation after 30 day drug treatment, and on condition that the kid make a good-faith effort to remain sober, while also keeping in mind that relapses do happen. To completely ignore a problem that has progressed to the point of theft and dishonesty, and expect it to go away on it's own is sweeping the dust under the rug and calling it clean.

psy:

--- Quote from: "Guest" ---
--- Quote from: "psy" ---And yet you suggest number 2 (do this or else).  So If I hold a gun to your head and say "do this or I pull the trigger", you have a choice, right?  If that's your logic than forcing anybody to do anything is impossible.  
--- End quote ---

Giving them 30 days to move out, or go to rehab is not the same as putting a gun to someone's head. Presenting an adult who is 18 with a choice, to either abide by the house rules and refrain from lying/stealing money and drugs, or move out, is not that much to ask. Being shot and killed, and being asked to move out of your parents house is not an accurate comparison in my view.
--- End quote ---

You are missing the point.  A choice "or else" is not truly a choice.  It's called duress.  Look it up.  If I made you sign a contract under the same circumstances you described to me, it would be void.  Whether saying "you get treatment or else" is coercion or force is quibbling about words.  For all intents and purposes, it's "forced".  Answer me this: do you really think the kid is going to do better if:

A. he fails on his own ( IF and that's a big IF ) and decides he needs to help himself
B. somebody says "you will get help for a problem I say you have or else"


--- Quote ---I disagree. When people are addicted to drugs they are not in a frame of mind to make logical and rational choices.
--- End quote ---

Well, if that were true, we'd have to hold people innocent for crimes they commit under the influence if they were "addicts".  But that's not the way the law works.  People are responsible for their actions.  To blame a drug alcohol "addiction" is a scapegoat and a poor one at that.  Do you have any evidence drugs directly forced (forced..  remember your definition) that kid to steal his parents money / property?


--- Quote ---The addiction to drugs can outweigh any concern to get better. This can lead to overdose and death, hopelessness and suicide.
--- End quote ---

I was afriad you were going to say "dead insane in jail".  You have any evidence this kid is an "addict", or are you just diagnosing him over the internet.  Are you a doctor (and yes, addiction is a medical problem which requires a medical diagnosis)?  I'm saying "give him a chance to suceed on his own and make his own path"  you are saying "NO!  Control him!".


--- Quote ---Most drug addicted people do not realize they have a problem, and if they do it is often too late. You can know you're an addict in need of help, and still not do anything about it. I don't see what is wrong with a family steering this person's choice towards treatment.
--- End quote ---

Steering is one thing.  Saying "you will do this or else" is another.

--- Quote ---If this was your kid, would you really suggest you just leave it alone?
--- End quote ---

Yes, because first off, it's not my body.  Are you pro life or pro choice?  why?  Secondly, I could not predict the future and there would be no way for me to know whether he would succeed or not.  Fear of the unknown is something that is part and parcel with parenthood.  I've already covered my objections in terms of program success rates.


--- Quote ---I would beg, plead, and if necessary coerce my kid into drug treatment if they were addicted to drugs and stealing/lying to me to support their habit.
--- End quote ---

What is your background, if you don't mind me asking?


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---Do you have a problem with giving the kid rent in an apt for a few months to get started and letting him live his life as he chooses, as I suggested?  It's giving him a chance to (I hate this term), "sink or swim".
--- End quote ---

This would be setting up the kid for failure. We have been told this kid is stealing drugs and money from his family. Setting him up with a free apartment will only make things worse. The apartment will become a 'drug pad' and used until the free money runs out.
--- End quote ---

So you can tell the future?  He will fail on his own, with such certainty.  It's almost religious in nature.  Tell me.  Are you an AA/NA/Al-anon member?  You are suggesting restricting somebody from having a chance to make their own decisions because you claim that if they do they will certainly make choices you disapprove of.  Well.  You don't know that.  You really don't.  In any case, the kid has a right to live as he wants on his own (the short term apt until he finds his job is a courtesy).


--- Quote ---This is the perfect time for a family to intervene, and make it clear to the kid that they need to change. If they do not change, the family will no longer financially support and subsidize a drug addiction or be lied to and robbed.
--- End quote ---

Who says he will spend his money on a drug addiction?  I'm saying the parents should pay for an apt for a few months, give him some cash to start off (if he chooses to spend it on drugs, that's his business) and let him on his own.  That's not subsidizing anything explicity.  It's saying "here is an opportunity to make something of your life.  Here is an apartment and some cash.  Do with it what you will.  This is the last you will get from us  We will love you always and if you ever feel like you need comfort or aid, we will always be here to comfort and love you, but we can no longer have you in the house because of your theft.  You have a right to put what you want in your own body, but should you feel you need help, will will support you in a rehabilitation program of your choosing."


--- Quote ---I would only offer this paid-for apartment situation after 30 day drug treatment, and on condition that the kid make a good-faith effort to remain sober, while also keeping in mind that relapses do happen. To completely ignore a problem that has progressed to the point of theft and dishonesty, and expect it to go away on it's own is sweeping the dust under the rug and calling it clean.
--- End quote ---

It's not ignoring it.  It's dealing with it.  If he's not in the house he cannot steal from them.  I am not suggesting asking him to move out because of what he chooses to put in his body.  I am suggesting the parents ask him to move out because of the stealing. that is it.  What he chooses to put in his own body is irrelevant to his actions.

Anonymous:

--- Quote from: "psy" ---Answer me this: do you really think the kid is going to do better if:

A. he fails on his own ( IF and that's a big IF ) and decides he needs to help himself
B. somebody says "you will get help for a problem I say you have or else"
--- End quote ---

If he fails on his own, that could mean death depending on what drugs we are talking about. He might not know that people are willing to help him at that point, or how or where to get help from. Sometimes it is necessary to offer an ultimatum to encourage the person to get help. The "or else" in this case is justified.


--- Quote ---Well, if that were true, we'd have to hold people innocent for crimes they commit under the influence if they were "addicts".  But that's not the way the law works.  People are responsible for their actions.  To blame a drug alcohol "addiction" is a scapegoat and a poor one at that.  Do you have any evidence drugs directly forced (forced..  remember your definition) that kid to steal his parents money / property?
--- End quote ---

If you drive drunk and kill someone you are not charged with murder, but with vehicular manslaughter which has a greatly reduced sentence.
The posters told us that the kid is stealing drugs from them, and money. I'm assuming they are talking about prescription medication.


--- Quote ---I was afriad you were going to say "dead insane in jail".  You have any evidence this kid is an "addict", or are you just diagnosing him over the internet.  Are you a doctor (and yes, addiction is a medical problem which requires a medical diagnosis)?  I'm saying "give him a chance to suceed on his own and make his own path"  you are saying "NO!  Control him!".
--- End quote ---

I'd say jail most likely, dead is the worst outcome. These things do happen to people who are addicted to drugs and never get help or change their behavior. Whether I'm right about the kid being addicted or not is irrelevant, because like you said it is up to a doctor to decide, which he will see if entered into a 30 day drug rehab. If he gets a free apartment for him and his friends to get high all day long in until the free money runs out, he will never see a doctor.


--- Quote ---Steering is one thing.  Saying "you will do this or else" is another.
--- End quote ---

How else can you get a person addicted to drugs to enter rehab? Drugs have a strong allure and if left to  their own devices, a drug addict will choose drugs over rehab almost 100%. Not because rehab is such a terrible thing, but because they want to keep getting high. Sure you can just let them be, but with that comes risks. In my opinion, the risk of entering a medically based 30 day rehab is less than the risks associated with doing nothing. Again, assuming that the kid h as a drug problem.


--- Quote ---Yes, because first off, it's not my body.  Are you pro life or pro choice?  why?  Secondly, I could not predict the future and there would be no way for me to know whether he would succeed or not.  Fear of the unknown is something that is part and parcel with parenthood.  I've already covered my objections in terms of program success rates.
--- End quote ---

It is your house though as the parent. Are you going to let your kid steal your prescriptions and money from you and still do nothing? Let them stay out for days at a time, coming home only to 'crash' all the while holding steadfast to your ideological objections to 'coercive' drug treatment? For all we know this kid is addicted to meth, which would explain the staying out for days at a time and sleeping all day during crashes.


--- Quote ---So you can tell the future?  He will fail on his own, with such certainty.  It's almost religious in nature.  Tell me.  Are you an AA/NA/Al-anon member?  You are suggesting estricting somebody from having a chance to make their own decisions because you claim that if they do they will certainly make choices you disapprove of.  Well.  You don't know that.  You really don't.  In any case, the kid has a right to live as he wants on his own (the short term apt until he finds his job is a courtesy).
--- End quote ---

If the kid wanted a job, he could have one while living at home. The poster said kid dropped out of high school. What makes you think the behavior of the kid will suddenly and miraculously change when provided with an apartment? I don't claim to see the future. I am claiming that a individual prone to using drugs will not stop all of a sudden because they are provided with the facade of a sober life. Yes this kid has a right to live on their own, but the parents are not required to pay for it. No I am not an AA member.


--- Quote ---
Who says he will spend his money on a drug addiction?  
--- End quote ---

The kid's actions tell us. He is willing to steal drugs and money from his family to support his habit. That means he is willing to compromise his own morals in order to feed an addiction. That shows us if he is handed money, that most likely it will go to the drugs.



--- Quote ---I'm saying the parents should pay for an apt for a few months, give him some cash to start off (if he chooses to spend it on drugs, that's his business) and let him on his own.  That's not subsidizing anything explicity.
--- End quote ---

It's not just his business, since the family is subsidizing it. What if he overdoses in the apartment from the huge batch of drugs he was able to buy with his cash handout? What if he invites his drug abusing friends to live in his apartment and one of them dies? The family would be responsible. Instead of setting up such a failure-prone situation, why not use the same money and energy to help them enter into treatment. They can offer the apartment and money when the kid shows they want, and are ready to start a normal sober life. Until then, it would just be another setting for the same behavior to continue.



--- Quote ---It's saying "here is an opportunity to make something of your life.  Here is an apartment and some cash.  Do with it what you will.  This is the last you will get from us  We will love you always and if you ever feel like you need comfort or aid, we will always be here to comfort and love you, but we can no longer have you in the house because of your theft.  You have a right to put what you want in your own body, but should you feel you need help, will will support you in a rehabilitation program of your choosing.
--- End quote ---

I think that is a noble idea, but it has to happen after the drug rehab. Otherwise the drug abuse will continue in the new apartment, and he will spend the cash on drugs. Not because he is a horrible person, but because that is how drugs work. They are addictive and people choose drugs over a normal and stable life. You can't buy your way out of drug addiction, you have to work on yourself first, and then rebuild your life.

We really are saying the same thing, but disagree on the particular details of the method. Providing an apartment and money is coercion just as my advice earlier. You also say that it's okay to kick the kid out because of theft. Well then why not get them into treatment, and treat the cause for why the theft occured in the first place. It's sort of like you want to ignore the drug component of the equation and fix the rest. I am saying the drug component is the cause of the rest, solve that, and the other problems will be no more.




--- Quote ---It's not ignoring it.  It's dealing with it.  If he's not in the house he cannot steal from them.  I am not suggesting asking him to move out because of what he chooses to put in his body.  I am suggesting the parents ask him to move out because of the stealing. that is it.  What he chooses to put in his own body is irrelevant to his actions.
--- End quote ---

What he puts in his body is the cause of his actions.

You say it's okay to kick him out for stealing, but then say it's necessary to provide an apartment free of charge and cash for a couple months. This doesn't make any sense to me. Giving him money will stop the theft, only because you are paying him off. That's sort of like paying money to street-living heroin addicts so they don't steal from the surrounding citizens and businesses. It solves the problem of theft and crime, but does nothing to solve the underlying problem of why the individual was required to steal in the first place. They can't work because they are addicted to drugs, but they need money for drugs, so they steal. You remove the drug component from that equation and the other problems solve themselves.

That is why I would suggest option #2, even if you don't mean it about kicking him out. At least get the gears in his mind moving, and get him thinking about improving his life for the better. You can't just buy him off, ignore the problem, and hope everything will magically solve itself.

In my opinion this would be the best case scenario.

Kid enters medically based rehab. 30 days minimum inpatient.
Kid finishes GED or High School while in rehab or soon after.
Kid returns to living at home while attending rehabs outpatient.
Living at home conditional on clean drug tests. I wouldn't kick a kid out for one dirty test since relapse is a part of recovery, but require they maintain a good faith effort to remain sober, attend outpatient rehab or therapy, and work on finishing school.
Get kid to disassociate from high school friends they got wasted with. Support the kid entering community college or university. Gets part time job.
After a year or so of improvement, then offer ,if financially allowable, to help get apartment and help them start their new sober life.
and finally,
enjoy knowing that you helped, with love and respect, your kid recover from a path that could of led them to a tragic fate.

Anonymous:
Just to clarify. My parents was on the right side of the gun, when we dealt with commies. There are generally no regrets about that part of our history, because without it we wouldn't have a country today. However, it was something to think about and while we are right at the top in the world regarding education, we have also been thinking about why we are the only country in the nordic countries who have school shootings after the millennium.

We havn't found the answer to that.

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