Why spend a year in a program when it can be done in a week

[TheWho]

No studies proving any programs effectiveness, but plenty of studies showing programs' damage, to be sure.

So since you have not been able to provide recent studies to disprove the effectiveness of programs we will move forward with the studies we presently have which show them to be effective.

Of course, no genuine studies could ever be conducted on any program, as medical ethics precludes abducting a human being (let alone a child) , imprisoning them, and torturing them, as goes on in a program.

OOOH, Sounds like a good movie, don’t forget the underground torture chambers and the guys with bad teeth.

However, there have been studies of as Lifespring, Werner Erhard’s EST, and most directly, from Charles E. Dederich’s “Synanon” cult, “church" as therapies for adults. ALL Studies have found these various treatments to be non-effective and damaging.

Of course,  History is interesting reading, but parents typically want to know what is the latest science.  What is effective today.

A federally contracted investigation found that the Seed was a highly sophisticated brainwashing, abusive system.

Yes it did.

Why is this relevant? ALL the major "programs" CEDU, ASPEN, Wwasp, and Straight-Pathway Center Daytop village, not to mention Desisto and Provo Canyon all use a combination of "therapies" based in these cults, adapted, of course to be more brutal as their new targets, can't simply walk away and refuse to participate.

Did you realize that many our automobiles stem from the Model “T”?  No seat belts or air bags back then.  Henry Ford must have been an abusive bastard huh?  Didn’t care about safety at all.  Think of all the people that died because of that selfish bastard. Bet peoplel ike you were happy when he finally died.



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[TheWho]

No YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ONE STUDY THAT VERIFIES ANY PROGRAM TO BE EFFECTIVE. Where is it? A "pulitzer prized author" never said a program was effective, despite being an for Aspen, the company that paid him to write this book about their rendition center. He produced a book which documented Aspen's detainees post-program personal destrucion.

Ha,Ha,Ha  you just showed us all you never read the book.  We all know the guys' story is legit.  It is a stretch to try to make anyone who knows writers to believe a Pulitzer prized author is going to sell after making it big.  It shows the desperation in your position.  Itis easier to discard than discuss.  This is too easy, you should get some sleep.


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[Germ]

No studies proving any programs effectiveness, but plenty of studies showing programs' damage, to be sure.

So since you have not been able to provide recent studies to disprove the effectiveness of programs we will move forward with the studies we presently have which show them to be effective....

Child murderer, there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them

Of course, no genuine studies could ever be conducted on any program, as medical ethics precludes abducting a human being (let alone a child) , imprisoning them, and torturing them, as goes on in a program.

OOOH, Sounds like a good movie, don’t forget the underground torture chambers and the guys with bad teeth..

So you're saying programs don't torture kids?
http://74.125.113.104/search?q=cache:Og ... cd=4&gl=us

Cedu was shut down a few years ago for torturing its students, and the state was seeking to press charges..

However, there have been studies of as Lifespring, Werner Erhard’s EST, and most directly, from Charles E. Dederich’s “Synanon” cult, “church" as therapies for adults. ALL Studies have found these various treatments to be non-effective and damaging.

Of course,  History is interesting reading, but parents typically want to know what is the latest science.  What is effective today.

"History" is relevent for victims of your industry who were abducted by Synanon, it various clones, and Cedu in the 50s and victimized by a society that allows youth to be abducted, imprisoned and tortured by organizations that "claim" to treat "troubled teens" but provide no proof their group does anything but hurt their prisoners. It is relevent for the victims of your industry that continued to be abducted by Cedu, Desisto, Straight, Pathway, AARC, Elan on through the 2000s, into this very moment. "

"Parents" with functioning brain cells are quite interested  that the methodolgies Aspen, WWASP, Elan, Carlbrook, boulder creek, desisto and CEDU (reopened) are using to "treat" their kids are cultic and have been proved to hurt victims. And of course, it's not about the "parents," its about the kids you abduct and torture and have to live with what you've done to them.

Nice to know you think of youth abducted, imprisoned, and tortured in the past as irrelevant examples of ancient history. In five years, of course, that means kids abducted, tortured, and murdered today will also be, according to you, irrelevant examples of ancient history. Your victims are real people who do not deserve to be exposed to torture you claim is therapy, but have NEVER proved it to be anything but torture, and your casual dismissal of their bodies is all too revealing.

A federally contracted investigation found that the Seed was a highly sophisticated brainwashing, abusive system.

Yes it did.

Why is this relevant? ALL the major "programs" CEDU, ASPEN, Wwasp, and Straight-Pathway Center Daytop village, not to mention Desisto and Provo Canyon all use a combination of "therapies" based in these cults, adapted, of course to be more brutal as their new targets, can't simply walk away and refuse to participate.

Did you realize that many our automobiles stem from the Model “T”?  No seat belts or air bags back then.  Henry Ford must have been an abusive bastard huh?  Didn’t care about safety at all.  Think of all the people that died because of that selfish bastard. Bet peoplel ike you were happy when he finally died.
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What are you talking about? You cretin, Henry Ford, didn't abduct, imprison and torure people while claiming to provide "treatment" that had no scientific validity whatsoever.

Yes, you freak, the man who abducted me, worked me from morning to night, punished me with public nudity, molested kids in his bed, subjected me to day in day out peer donouncement sessions, kept me in chains of flesh all day, is a "torturous bastard"

The man I refer to: Micheal Desisto. He provided "treatment" over the course of 40 years. He murdered 1000 kids, by my estimation. The torture i endured in the 00s was identical, or worse than the torture endured by seed victims 30 or so years ago. I endured the same methodologies originated in the same cults executed by the same people or their disiples, because of the same lack of human rights, the same ability of anyone to start a program for "troubled teens" and then do anything they want to a youth deemed troubled, including torture them.

Please prove me wrong. Name a helpful program. I know you can't.

[Anonymous]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIpIAX78gig

[TheWho]

Child murderer,

Crack whore

there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them

I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source.  You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.

What are you talking about? You cretin, Henry Ford, didn't abduct, imprison and torure people while claiming to provide "treatment" that had no scientific validity whatsoever.

Its called an analogy.  My point is if you manufactured a car like that today you would be put in jail and sued out of business.  Things change over time.

Yes, you freak,

Germ, you ignorant slut!!

the man who abducted me, worked me from morning to night, punished me with public nudity, molested kids in his bed, subjected me to day in day out peer donouncement sessions, kept me in chains of flesh all day, is a "torturous bastard"

The man I refer to: Micheal Desisto. He provided "treatment" over the course of 40 years. He murdered 1000 kids, by my estimation. The torture i endured in the 00s was identical, or worse than the torture endured by seed victims 30 or so years ago. I endured the same methodologies originated in the same cults executed by the same people or their disiples, because of the same lack of human rights, the same ability of anyone to start a program for "troubled teens" and then do anything they want to a youth deemed troubled, including torture them.

Thats awlful!!  Its a good thing they closed those places down.  I am truly sorry you had to experience that in your life.  I can understand why you feel the way you do towards these places.

Please prove me wrong. Name a helpful program. I know you can't.

There was a guy who spent a year and a half inside a TBS and wrote a book about his experience.  There were no murders or kidnappings or torture during the time he spent there and have not been any that we know of.  His name was Dave Marcus and you can read about it on this site  http://www.davemarcus.com.  There was another independent study done of this place, ASR, which showed no evidence of abuse, torture or murder.  The finding were quite positive in both cases.  These are only 2 examples.  I am sure if you looked outside fornits you would find more.  There are many good programs out there but not every program is good for every child.  Parents need to do their homework, talk to the childs therapist,local services etc. prior to placement.

The majority of programs are extremely effective and non abusive.

Yes they are.

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[Guest]

Child murderer,

Crack whore

there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them

I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source.  You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.

 

My mind boggles at the insanity you are willing to publically engage in, child murderer. You have presented NO study, about ANY "program." That is verifiable by reading through this thread.

If you think that claiming the self-evidently non-existant to be real is an effective shilling technique, you've absorbed too much "learning" from Werner Erhard, that guy your "friend" "studied under" back in the 70s.

[TheWho]

Child murderer,

Crack whore

there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them

I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source.  You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.

 

My mind boggles at the insanity you are willing to publically engage in, child murderer. You have presented NO study, about ANY "program." That is verifiable by reading through this thread.

If you think that claiming the self-evidently non-existant to be real is an effective shilling technique, you've absorbed too much "learning" from Werner Erhard, that guy your "friend" "studied under" back in the 70s.

so, porn queen, I guess we can conclude that I can provide evidence of TBS's being effective.  But you still continue to come up empty.  I would be pissed too if I were you.



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[Guest]

the man who abducted me, worked me from morning to night, punished me with public nudity, molested kids in his bed, subjected me to day in day out peer donouncement sessions, kept me in chains of flesh all day, is a "torturous bastard"

The man I refer to: Micheal Desisto. He provided "treatment" over the course of 40 years. He murdered 1000 kids, by my estimation. The torture i endured in the 00s was identical, or worse than the torture endured by seed victims 30 or so years ago. I endured the same methodologies originated in the same cults executed by the same people or their disiples, because of the same lack of human rights, the same ability of anyone to start a program for "troubled teens" and then do anything they want to a youth deemed troubled, including torture them.

Thats awlful!!  Its a good thing they closed those places down.  I am truly sorry you had to experience that in your life.  I can understand why you feel the way you do towards these places.

They never closed Desisto down. Desisto began abducting, imprisoning and torturing youth in the 70s, when all those "great human potential movement" (cults) you referred to emerged.

For the next 35 years, until a few back, Desisto and his disciples continued this evil. You or your friend Lon Woodbury promote Desisto and I believe it was a member of "natsap." It was also licensed. Lou Woodbury continues to honor Mike Desisto for his greatness as an educator. A psychiatrist referred my family to Desisto and sang its praises.

A girl swallowed a razor and instead of taking her to a hospital, Desisto management had her "confronted" for being so "untrustworthy" for hours. Her “treatment” became public.

Mass state had known of the systematic torture at Desisto for years, but had been unable to stop it. The revoked its license (still allowing it to operate unlicensed) but Desisto sued and got his license restored. After 35 years of kids being abducted, imprisoned, tortured and murdered, and now with this kid who swallowed a razor, and management publicly confirming they’d refused to bring her to a hospital, Mass insisted that there be slight changes in its operations (allow kids to use the phone without being “monitored,” for ex) or it would have its license revoked again. (Though it could continue to operate unlicensed)

Desisto did not want to make any changes. In response, Desisto split into at least 3 "new" schools. One opened in Florida, with a license. After opening, the Florida desisto, now with a new name, recommended a parent practice something they called "street therapy," a “therapy”  Desisto had initiated in the 70s. Street therapy is not allowing a youth to return home after they escape the "school." While receiving "street therapy" a boy was raped and murdered. This was in 2005-6, roundabouts.

After that, the family of this "data point" sued the school. Were they successful? I don't know. But at this point, the Florida desistoites, supposedly liquidated the "school's" assets and extradited themselves from the situation as very wealthy people.

It is unknown how the other Desisto Schools under new names are progressing or if the Florida Desisto school managers have since started a new "school."

[TheWho]

So assuming what you say is true I would say there was a program which had a history of abusing kids.  This is the type of information that needs to get out to parents.  

Making statements like "All" programs are abusive just makes everyone look really dumb.  

Even if the government funded an all out effort to make all programs abuse kids by pumping billions into the system with rewards for the most abusive program .... there would still be a few that would not want to abuse kids no matter how much they were paid.  It would just be impossibe to make them all adhere and be the same.



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[Guest]

So assuming what you say is true I would say there was a program which had a history of abusing kids.  This is the type of information that needs to get out to parents.  

Making statements like "All" programs are abusive just makes everyone look really dumb.  

Even if the government funded an all out effort to make all programs abuse kids by pumping billions into the system with rewards for the most abusive program .... there would still be a few that would not want to abuse kids no matter how much they were paid.  It would just be impossibe to make them all adhere and be the same.



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Yeah, but all programs have a history like this. If you'd like to name one that doesn't be my guest....

[Guest]

So assuming what you say is true I would say there was a program which had a history of abusing kids.  This is the type of information that needs to get out to parents.  

Making statements like "All" programs are abusive just makes everyone look really dumb.  

Even if the government funded an all out effort to make all programs abuse kids by pumping billions into the system with rewards for the most abusive program .... there would still be a few that would not want to abuse kids no matter how much they were paid.  It would just be impossibe to make them all adhere and be the same.



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Yeah, but all programs have a history like this. If you'd like to name one that doesn't be my guest....

It's just pretty mind boggling that that was allowed to go on for practically 40 years, well still is allowed to go on. Desisto was never closed, the torturers never punished. You still can abduct any person (under 21, sometimes) imprison them, and force upon them "treatment" that has no medical validity and is transparently torture.

[Anonymous]

I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source.  You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.

A paper by a grad student and a book written by a paid consultant to programs do not clinical studies make.

There was a guy who spent a year and a half inside a TBS and wrote a book about his experience.  

The paid consultant.  Yes, he wrote a book.  Independent?  No.

There was another independent study done of this place, ASR, which showed no evidence of abuse, torture or murder.

And the name of the "independent" study?  I'm sure it's a clinical, randomized study right?

The burden of proof is on those claiming to have a successful and effective program.  This is pretty basic stuff.  You should have been able to catch on to it by now.

[Anonymous]

Who.  I thought you accepted anecdotal data?  That's what Fornits survivors provide.  NOW you gotta problem when it goes AGAINST you?  Oh, you feeble little wiener.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25572&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p311508

Why all the negativity on Anecdotal data?  I agree that there are better forms of data collection and presentation, but in the absence of long term controlled studies, anecdotal evidence is acceptable, revealing and educational.


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[Guest]

Child murderer,

Crack whore

there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them

I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source.  You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.

 

My mind boggles at the insanity you are willing to publically engage in, child murderer. You have presented NO study, about ANY "program." That is verifiable by reading through this thread.

If you think that claiming the self-evidently non-existant to be real is an effective shilling technique, you've absorbed too much "learning" from Werner Erhard, that guy your "friend" "studied under" back in the 70s



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I hope this is the first thread anyone uninitated in this industry comes accross. The Werner Erhard,Charles Dietrich cult disiple style insanity of a program shill, their the callous disregard for human life, it's all here

[TheWho]

A paper by a grad student and a book written by a paid consultant to programs do not clinical studies make.

[citation needed]

The paid consultant. Yes, he wrote a book. Independent? No.

[citation needed]

And the name of the "independent" study? I'm sure it's a clinical, randomized study right?

“A Treatment outcome study”

The important thing is to get the information out to people good and bad.  If people don’t agree with the study that is okay.  Everyone will come away with something different.

The burden of proof is on those claiming to have a successful and effective program. This is pretty basic stuff. You should have been able to catch on to it by now.

Yes, we have, as you can see.  You also need to remember that without a study to back you up you cant claim they are ineffective either.  This is basic also, I think you would agree the logic would follow.

So where is your study that claims programs are ineffective?  Still waiting.



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