Why spend a year in a program when it can be done in a week

[TheWho]

1) The Who sites questionable studies in a lame attempt to back up his ASSertions.

The Who has no fucking idea what he is talking about----I mean, when did you last hear about some kids dying at a public school because their teacher kept them from getting medical attention, beat them to death, or deprived them of food or water while making them endure sub-zero temperatures without adequate clothing or shelter.

When was the last time a kid walked into a TBS and started shooting everyone like in columbine?  TBS's dont drive kids to that level of hatred (like public schools do) they work with the kids, listen to them and provide a safe environment for them to grow, learn and to be themselves.

The numbers show us overwhelmingly that TBS's are safer, but we know this already.

[Anonymous]

Who fucked his daughter?  Well.  He probably wanted to know if she was really as good as his friends were telling him.   :sue:

[Froderik]

1) The Who sites questionable studies in a lame attempt to back up his ASSertions.

The Who has no fucking idea what he is talking about----I mean, when did you last hear about some kids dying at a public school because their teacher kept them from getting medical attention, beat them to death, or deprived them of food or water while making them endure sub-zero temperatures without adequate clothing or shelter.

When was the last time a kid walked into a TBS and started shooting everyone like in columbine?  TBS's dont drive kids to that level of hatred (like public schools do) they work with the kids, listen to them and provide a safe environment for them to grow, learn and to be themselves.

The numbers show us overwhelmingly that TBS's are safer, but we know this already.

Admins -- DELETE DELETE DELETE.

[Anonymous]

The numbers show us overwhelmingly that TBS's are safer, but we know this already.

I need to see the numbers and percentages.

What is the total number of kids enrolled in all public schools in America?

What is the total number of kids enrolled in TBS's?

Uh-huh.  Let's look at your numbers.  I think you'll see that given the relatively small population of kids in TBS's compared to the public school system the number of deaths due to negligence/restraint deaths and suicides is much HIGHER in programs.

[TheWho]

You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________

July 1, 2000 thru June 2001   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides   , 2,959 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides   , 2,868 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides   , 2,846 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides   , 2,722 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
 NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s....  All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable

[Anonymous]

Go get fucked in the face, fake who.

I asked for totals of the TTI and public school populations.  Fuck this Froderik is right.  Cut the who's little fuzzy nuts off and stop his spamming.  Or track down who he is and see if this is really a commercial endeavor and respond appropriately.

[TheWho]

Go get fucked in the face, fake who.

I asked for totals of the TTI and public school populations.  Fuck this Froderik is right.  Cut the who's little fuzzy nuts off and stop his spamming.  Or track down who he is and see if this is really a commercial endeavor and respond appropriately.

Never seen someone get so pissed over data before and Frod makes another friend to boot!!!  Dam you Frod.


I can pull together the total number of kids in the public sector but there are no numbers available for the TBS/Wilderness that I have been able to locate.  If you can gather these we can sharpen our pencils and look at the individual rates.  This would be interesting to look at I believe.



...

[Anonymous]

Go get fucked in the face, fake who.



I can pull together the total number of kids in the public sector but there are no numbers available for the TBS/Wilderness that I have been able to locate.  If you can gather these we can sharpen our pencils and look at the individual rates.  This would be interesting to look at I believe.



...

There are no number?  So why do you make statements like this?

The numbers show us overwhelmingly that TBS's are safer, but we know this already.

You have no numbers for TBS/wilderness populations to work with and you admit it.  Don't make idiotic blanket statements with nothing to back you up cretin.  Somebody might send their kid to a program based on your fraudulent statements.  The kid could die and give you another opportunity to go 'ha, ha, ha'.

[TheWho]

You have no numbers for TBS/wilderness populations to work with and you admit it.

and it appears you don’t either.  So we have to present what we have.  If you cant contribute to the effort dont criticize others who do.


 

Don't make idiotic blanket statements with nothing to back you up cretin. Somebody might send their kid to a program based on your fraudulent statements. The kid could die and give you another opportunity to go 'ha, ha, ha'.

Geesh  why so negative?  Suppose the parent does nothing (because of lack of information) and the child dies? Or someone might get their child the help they need based on the available data.  



...

[Guest]

No, you incompetent wretch.

Jane!! you ignorant slut!!

Proof a “program” works is not affected by reports of abuse in that “program.” Scientific validity of a treatment is not dependant on its potential practitioners.

To illustrate: it has been proved chemotherapy works. People have been abused by chemo dispensers, but that doesn’t disprove chemo’s effectiveness.

Thank you.  You are the first person I have spoken to that can see the abuse comes from the individuals and is not a reflection of the industry as a whole.  You would not believe how many people have trouble with this.

On the other hand, not ONE, not even ONE program has EVER been documented by scientific methodology and proofs as doing ANYTHING but HARMING participants.

There have been studies conducted in the past which have shown programs to be effective and not harmful to anyone.

Why in 60 years has not ONE program ever been proved effective?

Maybe because you get all your information from fornits.  I agree that there have not been many studies that I have read.  But there isn’t any evidence that these programs are ineffective or abusive either.

...

You disgusting child abuser, in the history of KENDELL school there was no policy of torture, NO ONE was abducted, no one was held prisoner, no one was forced (as in, being beaten, stripped nude, or surrounded by and verbally tormented by peers who were forced BY the “school” to do this lest they have it done to them) to do ANYTHING.

Teachers weren't instructed by Mel Wasserman, Mike Desisto, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, to abduct youth sit them in a circle and torment them in concert with other abducted youth until the targeted youth “broke,” only to do it again the next day, like at Cedu running Springs or Desisto.

Name a program, you evil nut, that this doesn’t happen in. NAME ONE STUDY THAT PROVES ANY PROGRAM IS EFFECTIVE.

One more time, for you, you evil shill. MEDICALLY speaking one must have proof that a ritual or medicine is effective and safe before it can be called a "treatment" or "therapy," or have any medical validity. Otherwise, I can claim that raping you cures cancer. In the same way that no one has proved that raping you cures cancer, no one has proved that any program is effective, therefore programs are defacto, prima ficie INEFFECTIVE QUACKERY. Scientifically speaking they are as valid as "treatment" as is rape for cancer.

[Anonymous]

So we have established a few things today:

1. TBS's are clearly safer than the public sector by orders of magnitude.

Bullshit and repeating it over and over will not make it true.

2. We have brought forth evidence that TBS's are non abusive in nature via a Pulitzer prized novelist who spent a year and a half inside a TBS writing about day to day issues (which, since no one can dispute the facts, many are trying to convince us he is on the take and writes for pay off money).

No need to convince anyone of anything.  David Marcus is a paid consultant for the program he reviewed.
 

3.  We have a research paper which was conducted independently by a graduate student working on her PhD.  She found the TBS's to be non abusive and effective also.

At least you finally admit that it's just a grad student's paper, which is a FAR cry from a clinical study taht would provide facts.

These are just ones I randomly found.  There are probably hundreds of more sources out there… but you wont find them on fornits I can assure you.

Those are the ONLY two you have EVER come up with in all the years you've been here.

As far as evidence to support the theory that the industry is abusive we have come up empty so far, but we are still waiting I am sure some research will surface soon.

You've come up empty, but we've come to expect that from you.  Proof has been provided and linked to, even within this very thread of ACTUAL CLINICAL STUDIES, one in particular by the NIH yet you REFUSE to even acknowledge it.

You're a complete tool and nothing but a shill for child abuse and mind control.

[TheWho]

You disgusting child abuser

Jane, you ignorant slut!!

, in the history of KENDELL school there was no policy of torture, NO ONE was abducted, no one was held prisoner, no one was forced (as in, being beaten, stripped nude, or surrounded by and verbally tormented by peers who were forced BY the “school” to do this lest they have it done to them) to do ANYTHING.

Teachers weren't instructed by Mel Wasserman, Mike Desisto, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, to abduct youth sit them in a circle and torment them in concert with other abducted youth until the targeted youth “broke,” only to do it again the next day, like at Cedu running Springs or Desisto.

Columbine highschool never encouraged their teachers to teach violence nor did they teach the use of deadly weapons.

Name a program, you evil nut, that this doesn’t happen in. NAME ONE STUDY THAT PROVES ANY PROGRAM IS EFFECTIVE.

Name one public school where a child wasnt abused.  Name A study that says all programs are ineffective.  Your turn, I have all ready provided a Pulitzer prized author and an independent study which proves programs to be effective.

You know the TBS environment is safer for at risk kids than on the street or even in a public school system.



...

[Guest]

You disgusting child abuser

Jane, you ignorant slut!!

, in the history of KENDELL school there was no policy of torture, NO ONE was abducted, no one was held prisoner, no one was forced (as in, being beaten, stripped nude, or surrounded by and verbally tormented by peers who were forced BY the “school” to do this lest they have it done to them) to do ANYTHING.

Teachers weren't instructed by Mel Wasserman, Mike Desisto, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, to abduct youth sit them in a circle and torment them in concert with other abducted youth until the targeted youth “broke,” only to do it again the next day, like at Cedu running Springs or Desisto.

Columbine highschool never encouraged their teachers to teach violence nor did they teach the use of deadly weapons....

Exactly my point,  idiot. SCHOOLS are not systematic torure centers. They don't force youth to torture and murder other youth--PROGRAMS do.

Name a program, you evil nut, that this doesn’t happen in. NAME ONE STUDY THAT PROVES ANY PROGRAM IS EFFECTIVE.

Name one public school where a child wasnt abused.  Name A study that says all programs are ineffective.  Your turn, I have all ready provided a Pulitzer prized author and an independent study which proves programs to be effective.
...

No YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ONE STUDY THAT VERIFIES ANY PROGRAM TO BE EFFECTIVE. Where is it? A "pulitzer prized author" never said a program was effective, despite being an for Aspen, the company that paid him to write this book about their rendition center. He produced a book which documented Aspen's detainees post-program personal destrucion.

You know the TBS environment is safer for at risk kids than on the street or even in a public school system.
...

[/quote]

WTF are you talking about?

[Anonymous]

No studies proving any programs effectiveness, but plenty of studies showing programs' damage, to be sure.

Of course, no genuine studies could ever be conducted on any program, as medical ethics precludes abducting a human being (let alone a child) , imprisoning them, and torturing them, as goes on in a program.

However, there have been studies of as Lifespring, Werner Erhard’s EST, and most directly, from Charles E. Dederich’s “Synanon” cult, “church" as therapies for adults. ALL Studies have found these various treatments to be non-effective and damaging.

A federally contracted investigation found that the Seed was a highly sophisticated brainwashing, abusive system.

Why is this relevant? ALL the major "programs" CEDU, ASPEN, Wwasp, and Straight-Pathway Center Daytop village, not to mention Desisto and Provo Canyon all use a combination of "therapies" based in these cults, adapted, of course to be more brutal as their new targets, can't simply walk away and refuse to participate.

[Anonymous]

Ken Kay, founder of WWASP

"I use a little bit of what Synanon [did], maybe Lifespring, Carnegie all of these and you kind of bring a little bit of everything together and then you adapt it"

Essentially, WWASP therapy, according to its founder, is a mix of various cults combined with what he, a high-school drop-out, deems effective.

Suprise, suprise, no valid medical studies in the 30 odd years wwasps has operated has validated his program as effective. Yet, because humans under 21 are not recognized as human in America, is allowed to force his "medical care" on them after abucting and imprisoning them.