Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately

[Anonymous]

Escort services take kids AGASINT THEIR WILL, in handcuffs, or drugged, to programs. There are articles about this all over the net. Type in "want to make your kid disappear". There is another medical survey available by typing in "Alison pinto" where kidnapping is described in detail by the victims. There are police reports available everywhere about this subject. They also verify that though they are notified of the abducting, the police do nothing, as they consider it the right of the parent. Type in "close thayler learning academy" or "abduction "intervention" this info is all readily available.. You are lying.

They are not abductions or kidnapping (you watch too many movies). I think the problem most kids are having understanding this is that before you are of age (18 or 21) the parents make the rules and have all the say in what you do.  If they want to "home school" you that is their choice.  If they decide to hire an escort service (bus company) to pick you up against your will and drive you to a public institution (local public school), kicking and screaming, to get you an education, then that is their choice also (whether it is a local public school or a TBS).  The police are not going to come to your rescue nor should they unless there is a teacher who is abusing you and then you need to talk to your parents.  But all this talk of abduction and kidnapping is such crap.. all kids are forced to do what the parents decide until they are of age.

 

And you are lying about something that is easy to verify as a lie. Thank you for spoiling whatever credibility you have in the eyes of whoever may be witnessing your bullshit.

This happened to me, personally. Are you saying, monster child torturer, that I am lying??

Yes I am, I am saying you are lying.  As long as your parents gave consent then there is no crime.  The law allows for emancipation if you choose to head out on your own.. but if you don’t choose this then don’t belly ached and blame others.  Either emancipate yourself or wait until you are of age to care for yourself.



...

quoted for distrubing sickness

[Ursus]

Back to wilderness, two cents from the bear...  Personally, I rather liked wilderness.  Maybe that is because in my day, they hadn't yet fully caught on to its umph factor in brainwashing.  I think back then, Hyde was still trying to mimic Outward Bound in its earliest incarnations.  If I recall correctly, it was still within the first decade of OB having graced our shores.  Moreover, I was not exactly an innocent when it came to spending time alone in the woods.  And some of the staff were not exactly well-versed when it came to survival out there, so they were less focused.  But from what I can gather, that has changed.  That is, they've caught on to the umph factor.

I think one of the primary reasons that wilderness "therapy" has caught on so pervasively in the troubled teen industry is that these programs realize that putting people in a milieu that they are unfamiliar with increases their vulnerability, and hence susceptibility, to indoctrination of whatever sort they see fit.  The "environmental vocabulary" gets completely changed from what the kids are used to negotiating on a daily basis; there are no guideposts to trigger that expectations may not be appropriate.  Consequently, personal boundaries are all the more easily transgressed.  Were these kids more familiar with the terrain, so to speak, it wouldn't "work" half as well.

Outward Bound seems to have changed too.  I believe it has splintered, with maybe only one of those fragments still devoted to the original ideals.  At least one of the offshoots is heavily focused on reaping the financial gains of rewiring teen psyches in the grand, wild outdoors.  Very sad.

[Che Gookin]

Good thing I'm already in a funk. It doesn't make the "good news" of outward bounds all that depressing.

[Anonymous]

Back to wilderness, two cents from the bear...  Personally, I rather liked wilderness.  Maybe that is because in my day, they hadn't yet fully caught on to its umph factor in brainwashing.  I think back then, Hyde was still trying to mimic Outward Bound in its earliest incarnations.  If I recall correctly, it was still within the first decade of OB having graced our shores.  Moreover, I was not exactly an innocent when it came to spending time alone in the woods.  And some of the staff were not exactly well-versed when it came to survival out there, so they were less focused.  But from what I can gather, that has changed.  That is, they've caught on to the umph factor.

I think one of the primary reasons that wilderness "therapy" has caught on so pervasively in the troubled teen industry is that these programs realize that putting people in a milieu that they are unfamiliar with increases their vulnerability, and hence susceptibility, to indoctrination of whatever sort they see fit.  The "environmental vocabulary" gets completely changed from what the kids are used to negotiating on a daily basis; there are no guideposts to trigger that expectations may not be appropriate.  Consequently, personal boundaries are all the more easily transgressed.  Were these kids more familiar with the terrain, so to speak, it wouldn't "work" half as well.

Outward Bound seems to have changed too.  I believe it has splintered, with maybe only one of those fragments still devoted to the original ideals.  At least one of the offshoots is heavily focused on reaping the financial gains of rewiring teen psyches in the grand, wild outdoors.  Very sad.

If you have ever gone mountain climbing, you might have become aware of your dependence on the group. The reason is that in order to survive you must quickly adapt to acting as a group. Every individual cooperates so that the whole group may enjoy a benefit. You start to discover a few simple rules that allow a group of wilful individuals to form a collective brain able to make decisions like a single organism. If individuals act out, the group as a whole suffers. A narrow range of behavior allows the group to climb the mountain as safely as possible.

You can see how useful wilderness programs are to therapeutic boarding schools. When the danger of acting independently rises beyond a certain threshold, a group intelligence is formed. This happens much faster in the great outdoors than in the school itself where a student's basic needs are provided for.

[Anonymous]

I am speaking from my personal experience. I met up with quite a few kids from my group. the only ones who said they hated it (still) were fatasses then and now. They want never wanted anything to do with the outdoors, to them, life was on a computer screen (everquest mostly). i wouldnt expect much more of them.
I was pretty overweight myself when i went to multiple wildernesses, and still am. i complained my ass off the first trip. afterwards, i got over it, and lost some weight while i was at it. I found hiking much more enjoyable than running in circles or on a treadmill, biking in one place, or lifting weights in a small room surrounded by other people doing likewise.
I wouldnt call these kids a fatass in person. I think alot of the reason many kids dont get much physical activity is because they have never been introduced to something they enjoy. they much prefer videogames over going to the gym, and it's easy to see why. theres plenty of things one can do to work off weight which are much more viable for these people. wheather it be hunting, badminton, rock climbing, snowboarding, sailing, even walking more. the key is weaning people off the computer and helping them find their niche. i was just lucky that hiking became something i enjoy. another key is food - not just how much, but what you eat too. I dont mean protein vs. carbs, i mean organic vs. chemically treated. 99% of the stuff in most supermarkets (even the vegetable isle) is toxic, and eating it will make you very fat and ill. just improving the quality of food makes a difference. I lost alot of weight switching from supermarket style boxed or packaged food to locally produced, organic food. i eat alot more but i'm much healthier.
the reason i continue calling these people fatasses is because they make no effort to find an activity they like. whenever they do ANYTHING, they complain about it being too physically demanding. with that attitude, what do you expect?

The thing is though that there is a philosophical pattern within the industry of dismissing complaints whether it be toward wilderness or tbs and the irrelevant whinings of the weak. The fact that this attitude is mean spirited is one thing, but it leads to serious injury and death as the complaints of such kids are ignored. It does not seem coincidental to me that Ina August and Gina score were both overweight. Or that Aaron Bacon was described as being cerebal and scornful of the anti intellectual philosophy of his program. I am sure kids who dont fit this sort of Jock culture have it tougher than some of their peers at wilderness. Given that such programs are meant to cater to problematic young people with health or drug issues  then why is it in your opinion that the "fat asses" don't come away healed?
Afterall some such kids go to summer camp when they are younger and do hate some of the activities. But because the experience is meant to be about fun they also can often find lots to enjoy. Usually a kid who hates soccer can be convinced to have a kick because in 20 minutes they will be doing something they like. What does not happen is being forced to do the unpleasant thing all day every day. Their failures or personal preferences in some activities are not seen as character flaws.

I agree with you that western kids on the whole probably could stand to get more exercise all round. Their parents could also stock their homes far more healthily than is the general trend. When I was a kid even a decade ago it was far more common to see kids hitting balls on suburban streets and a bike was more or less the average 10 year old's car. But nobody is forcing mum and dad to shit in the woods and do things they hate until they are claiming a good time. This is because as adults they have the right to refuse. Even in the cases where wilderness is not downright abusive the psychology behind it is crude and meanspirited

Oz girl

[Ursus]

Back to wilderness, two cents from the bear...  Personally, I rather liked wilderness.  Maybe that is because in my day, they hadn't yet fully caught on to its umph factor in brainwashing.  I think back then, Hyde was still trying to mimic Outward Bound in its earliest incarnations.  If I recall correctly, it was still within the first decade of OB having graced our shores.  Moreover, I was not exactly an innocent when it came to spending time alone in the woods.  And some of the staff were not exactly well-versed when it came to survival out there, so they were less focused.  But from what I can gather, that has changed.  That is, they've caught on to the umph factor.

I think one of the primary reasons that wilderness "therapy" has caught on so pervasively in the troubled teen industry is that these programs realize that putting people in a milieu that they are unfamiliar with increases their vulnerability, and hence susceptibility, to indoctrination of whatever sort they see fit.  The "environmental vocabulary" gets completely changed from what the kids are used to negotiating on a daily basis; there are no guideposts to trigger that expectations may not be appropriate.  Consequently, personal boundaries are all the more easily transgressed.  Were these kids more familiar with the terrain, so to speak, it wouldn't "work" half as well.

Outward Bound seems to have changed too.  I believe it has splintered, with maybe only one of those fragments still devoted to the original ideals.  At least one of the offshoots is heavily focused on reaping the financial gains of rewiring teen psyches in the grand, wild outdoors.  Very sad.

If you have ever gone mountain climbing, you might have become aware of your dependence on the group. The reason is that in order to survive you must quickly adapt to acting as a group. Every individual cooperates so that the whole group may enjoy a benefit. You start to discover a few simple rules that allow a group of wilful individuals to form a collective brain able to make decisions like a single organism. If individuals act out, the group as a whole suffers. A narrow range of behavior allows the group to climb the mountain as safely as possible.

You can see how useful wilderness programs are to therapeutic boarding schools. When the danger of acting independently rises beyond a certain threshold, a group intelligence is formed. This happens much faster in the great outdoors than in the school itself where a student's basic needs are provided for.

Yah, I hear you.  I've gone up in "avalanche conditions," in the dead of winter.  But I think most people, kids included, would respond naturally to the needs of the situation.  That kind of thing is in the spirit of cooperation and the need to survive as intact as possible.  But the mod behaviorists add a component of mean-spirited punitiveness to the equation that would be totally unnecessary if their motives were "pure."  What the hell is the point of the raps and talks and seminars en route?  Gimme a break.

But I am guessing the point of your post was really to underscore the groupthink and conformity necessary under said extreme conditions.  Kind of what I was trying to say with "environmental vocabulary," but I think you said it much better and certainly more clearly.

[Anonymous]

Back to wilderness, two cents from the bear...  Personally, I rather liked wilderness.  Maybe that is because in my day, they hadn't yet fully caught on to its umph factor in brainwashing.  I think back then, Hyde was still trying to mimic Outward Bound in its earliest incarnations.  If I recall correctly, it was still within the first decade of OB having graced our shores.  Moreover, I was not exactly an innocent when it came to spending time alone in the woods.  And some of the staff were not exactly well-versed when it came to survival out there, so they were less focused.  But from what I can gather, that has changed.  That is, they've caught on to the umph factor.

I think one of the primary reasons that wilderness "therapy" has caught on so pervasively in the troubled teen industry is that these programs realize that putting people in a milieu that they are unfamiliar with increases their vulnerability, and hence susceptibility, to indoctrination of whatever sort they see fit.  The "environmental vocabulary" gets completely changed from what the kids are used to negotiating on a daily basis; there are no guideposts to trigger that expectations may not be appropriate.  Consequently, personal boundaries are all the more easily transgressed.  Were these kids more familiar with the terrain, so to speak, it wouldn't "work" half as well.

Outward Bound seems to have changed too.  I believe it has splintered, with maybe only one of those fragments still devoted to the original ideals.  At least one of the offshoots is heavily focused on reaping the financial gains of rewiring teen psyches in the grand, wild outdoors.  Very sad.

If you have ever gone mountain climbing, you might have become aware of your dependence on the group. The reason is that in order to survive you must quickly adapt to acting as a group. Every individual cooperates so that the whole group may enjoy a benefit. You start to discover a few simple rules that allow a group of wilful individuals to form a collective brain able to make decisions like a single organism. If individuals act out, the group as a whole suffers. A narrow range of behavior allows the group to climb the mountain as safely as possible.

You can see how useful wilderness programs are to therapeutic boarding schools. When the danger of acting independently rises beyond a certain threshold, a group intelligence is formed. This happens much faster in the great outdoors than in the school itself where a student's basic needs are provided for.

Yah, I hear you.  I've gone up in "avalanche conditions," dead winter.  But I think most people, kids included, would respond naturally to the needs of the situation.  That kind of thing is in the spirit of cooperation and the need to survive as intact as possible.  But the mod behaviorists add a component of mean-spirited punitiveness to the equation that would be totally unnecessary if their motives were "pure."  What the hell is the point of the raps and talks and seminars en route?  Gimme a break.

But I am guessing the point of your post was really to underscore the groupthink and conformity necessary under said extreme conditions.  Kind of what I was trying to say with "environmental vocabulary," but I think you said it much better and certainly more clearly.

The raps, talks, and seminars are in fact the most important component that enable a smooth transfer of the lessons in groupthink learned outdoors back into the school environment.

[Ursus]

The thing is though that there is a philosophical pattern within the industry of dismissing complaints whether it be toward wilderness or tbs and the irrelevant whinings of the weak. The fact that this attitude is mean spirited is one thing, but it leads to serious injury and death as the complaints of such kids are ignored. It does not seem coincidental to me that Ina August and Gina score were both overweight. Or that Aaron Bacon was described as being cerebal and scornful of the anti intellectual philosophy of his program. I am sure kids who dont fit this sort of Jock culture have it tougher than some of their peers at wilderness. Given that such programs are meant to cater to problematic young people with health or drug issues  then why is it in your opinion that the "fat asses" don't come away healed?
Afterall some such kids go to summer camp when they are younger and do hate some of the activities. But because the experience is meant to be about fun they also can often find lots to enjoy. Usually a kid who hates soccer can be convinced to have a kick because in 20 minutes they will be doing something they like. What does not happen is being forced to do the unpleasant thing all day every day. Their failures or personal preferences in some activities are not seen as character flaws.

I agree with you that western kids on the whole probably could stand to get more exercise all round. Their parents could also stock their homes far more healthily than is the general trend. When I was a kid even a decade ago it was far more common to see kids hitting balls on suburban streets and a bike was more or less the average 10 year old's car. But nobody is forcing mum and dad to shit in the woods and do things they hate until they are claiming a good time. This is because as adults they have the right to refuse. Even in the cases where wilderness is not downright abusive the psychology behind it is crude and meanspirited

Oz girl

I'm not sure that I would agree with you, Oz girl, that the psychology behind it is inherently crude and mean spirited.  Certainly it does seem as though the way it is put into practice these days IS, in fact, crude and mean spirited, but I don't think it started out that way.  At least, I hope not.

Myself, I feel pretty damn comfortable not knowing of any human presence within 10 square miles of me.  People can be so cruel and eviscerating sometimes.  I'd just as soon not deal with them if I can at all avoid it.  As harsh as Mother Nature can be, she seems to have her criteria based on more dispassionate motives.  There is no ulterior motive, it is just survival and inherent basic needs.  'Tis a pity that wilderness "therapy" does not, apparently, have these same goals or outlook...

[Ursus]

The raps, talks, and seminars are in fact the most important component that enable a smooth transfer of the lessons in groupthink learned outdoors back into the school environment.

Statements like that make me want to retire from the human race.  I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm recognizing exactly what you are saying, and I am disgusted and depressed about the current reality of it.

[Anonymous]

The raps, talks, and seminars are in fact the most important component that enable a smooth transfer of the lessons in groupthink learned outdoors back into the school environment.

Statements like that make me want to retire from the human race.  I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm recognizing exactly what you are saying, and I am disgusted and depressed about the current reality of it.

Here's a song to cheer you up. Yalla, I'm out of here. Peace, Mr. Bear.

[Ursus]

The raps, talks, and seminars are in fact the most important component that enable a smooth transfer of the lessons in groupthink learned outdoors back into the school environment.

Statements like that make me want to retire from the human race.  I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm recognizing exactly what you are saying, and I am disgusted and depressed about the current reality of it.

Here's a song to cheer you up. Yalla, I'm out of here. Peace, Mr. Bear.

Peace to you too, my man.  I'm outta here myself; it's getting late.  And thanks for the good tune.  Hope I didn't "mistreat you" too much in our discussion tonight...

[Oz girl]

I'm not sure that I would agree with you, Oz girl, that the psychology behind it is inherently crude and mean spirited.  Certainly it does seem as though the way it is put into practice these days IS, in fact, crude and mean spirited, but I don't think it started out that way.  At least, I hope not.

Myself, I feel pretty damn comfortable not knowing of any human presence within 10 square miles of me.  People can be so cruel and eviscerating sometimes.  I'd just as soon not deal with them if I can at all avoid it.  As harsh as Mother Nature can be, she seems to have her criteria based on more dispassionate motives.  There is no ulterior motive, it is just survival and inherent basic needs.  'Tis a pity that wilderness "therapy" does not, apparently, have these same goals or outlook...

Well I certainly think that sometimes the idea that is sold is not meanspirited. I can genunely see what some parents see in wilderness. The fresh air, a chance to get away from a probably tense home for a bit and a chance to talk things out with an independent adult all seem pretty good. But then on the other hand so many wilderness places market  the idea that kids are assholes who need everything they get comfort from taken away. This coupled with the idea that those who don't love wilderness are lazy/weak/druggies is what I meant by inherently mean and draconian. To me the thought of tactics like the entire group stopping when one kid cant or wont move is not positive peer culture at all. It is the kind of pressure that makes a potentially sick or exhausted kid go on when they really should not. This and "rewarding" kids with food or punishing them with a lack thereof.

I am afraid we are opposites in terms of solitude. I need the noise and mess of the huddled masses around me. It took me till age 26 to understand that shyness is not a character flaw

[Anonymous]

sometimes stopping isnt feasable, for example if you're 2-3 miles away from the nearest campsite and the sun is starting to set. or what if that one kid stops because he gets an asthma attack?

Usually the kids get pushed and they turn out fine. if no one is there to push them, they may never realize that they are able to do something. when they complain and get pushed, but pull through and make it they feel an overwhelming sense of accomplishment.

What IS an issue is medical pre-screening and proper training for staff to recognize serious ailments, and distinguish the difference between exhaustion and a serious problem, and also training for proper first aid beyond what you would get at a cpr class. Like army medic type training.
I think there should be physical requirements for groups, and that kids with simmilar physical abilities should be grouped together. e.g if you can run a 15 min mile, group A, 10min mile, group b, 5min mile, group c, and if you cant make a mile in 20 minuits you cant be admitted.


you also have to understand that in many wildernesses, eating more than "trail food", and even having acsess to roads or an airlift, is a luxury. When i was in outward bound, we travelled 290 miles across the boundry waters in minissota zig-zagging across the border for a month. during most of the trip, we were over a hundred miles away from a road. The park service doesnt like to do airlifts unless it's a life-threatening emergency situation, and they usually charge a fourtune for it anyway because getting there is so difficult. they cant use helicopters, so they have to use this little plane i think they call a pondskipper, and only a small percentage of the lakes are big enough for it to land. we had to carry everything in and out, we had to carry ALL our food from the start. try being very well-fed if you have to carry around all your food.
One of the kids in my group broke his arm - i'm no doctor but it looked really messed up. we coulnt get an airlift, so the counselors fashioned a splint from a set of broken paddles we found, set his arm, gave him emergency morphine, and we stopped for the day. we hiked and conoed around 40 miles, which took us three days carrying the injured kid's stuff, untill we met a counselor who took the kid and canoed another 3 days untill he got to a road where there was an ambulace waiting for him.

this is normal. this is what happens in the wilderness. if you cant deal with it, if you are not physically and mentally capable of enduring it, you have no bussiness being out there and you should have been screened out.

outward bound sends a list of excersizes and tells you what to expect, and how physically fit you should be, and an explination that if you cannot fullfill the physical requirements you should not go, months before the departure of your expedition.

[Oz girl]

These kids do not get a choice as to whether they get to go. As a result there is understandable resentment. Staff then have no way of knowing as a result whether a kid is in real need of medical treatment or not. This idea that "if it is just exhaustion" a kid should be pushed till they get a sense of accomplishment is a part of the flawed mentality I referred to in my previous post. Nobody without medical training knows where somebody else's limits are physically or emotionally. No caring adult professional should be so cavaler about it, particularly with kids who are sent because their families feel there are real or imagined drug, behavioral or mental health issues.

If a program as reputable as outward bound admits that help is so difficult to access that on the ground staff are having to administer a pretty hard core drug like morphine to a kid and splint a break themselves then this really indicates how many dangers there are. Your post had made me think that even if an untroubled kid wanted to do outward bound I would be thinking twice.

[Anonymous]

The wilderness can be very therapeutic, for people who choose that experience. Lack of choice greatly undermines the value it. But knowing that you are going to be sent to a behavior mod facility right after wilderness is even worse -- it completely destroys the benefit of any personal insights you might have gained by spending some weeks away from civilization.

How did wilderness therapy ever get teamed up with behavior mod shitpits in the first place? They are almost opposites.