Author Topic: Puff-puff  (Read 9344 times)

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Offline JDavid

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« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2003, 11:04:00 PM »
But in anarcho-communism we could go out & build two houses in no time together, and not have to live under mortgages for 30 years.  It would be too easy to build houses to steal them from other people.  That's part of the community.  Plus, part of the community will be stockpiling and/or creating building materials in order to do such things.

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Now, under your plan, what's to stop someone from taking your house once you've built it. As a matter of fact, we're having sort of a rough time these days. How about if I pack up my husband, two kids, dog and office and just move right in to your house. You'll just have to scoot over and get used to late night TV because we need the house for awhile. What? It's your house? You don't want to share? I thought not.


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Offline JDavid

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« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2003, 11:09:00 PM »
But you are agreeing when you said the ideas are good.  ::bangin:: I disagree that you're disagreeing because I think you agree, so we could just agree to agree.

I'm not being serious.  I don't really expect anyone to instantly agree with me.  Maybe you'll agree months down the road or somethin'.  Just saying "sounds good" is good enough for me.


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On 2003-05-16 18:47:00, Mo wrote:


I know this. Why not agree to disagree? Sound like a plan to you? :grin:



Have a great weekend everyone.



*kissie*  *kissie*"

[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-17 09:26 ]
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Offline ehm

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« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2003, 02:15:00 PM »
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On 2003-05-16 20:09:00, JDavid wrote:

"But you are agreeing when you said the ideas are good.  ::rainbow:: I love this board. Such diversity yet we are all unified. (and we aren't even gay)har har, get it?
Stay real -

________________________________________________

"Free love messes with my life..." -Bongwater
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2003, 07:11:00 PM »
JD, building houses is not that difficult. After all, we've been doing it for thousands of years, we've pretty much got it down. The trouble comes in when the farmer who was planning on using that patch of land, after letting it rest a couple of years, comes back to find you squatting on it or when the hunter goes hungry because all the banging and racket has driven off his prey.

If we're all going to live together in relative peace, we have to have some form of agreement about what you can and can't do with property. The best way we've come up with is to attach ownership to property. If what I do with my land hurts someone downstream, I can be held responsible. It has to be that way or else we have to reduce world population by about 90% in order to avoid conflicts of interest like this.

On the other hand, if we just sit tight and let the maniacal nuke owners do what they will, we might have this problem solved without lifting a finger. Here's to all of us making it out the other end.  ::cheers::

You can lead a camel to water but you can't make it stink (any more than it already does)
-- Job

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2003, 07:35:00 PM »
::cheers::
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Offline JDavid

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« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2003, 12:16:00 AM »
That's why I say an awareness of the abundance is essential.  If someone is squatting on part of the reserved agricultural turf, and you go tell them there is another 1.6 billion acres out there, they will probably feel kinda ridiculous for acting like this particular patch was his last chance at having a place to live.  This is especially possible when a neighborhood attempts to solve the problem by actually inviting the nuissance squatter to come on over & build a house with them.

That is true that building houses is not that difficult.  So why do you have to spend 30 years paying for it?  The answer is: Artificial restrictions which create demand in conjunction with land hording by those who can afford to rapidly develop it and put huge prices on those developments.  That needs to end.  That is a system which will break probably long before we smash the state unless people just go generation after generation thinking it's ok to have to work your entire life to pay for a place to live.  Population does expand, so that is creating even more demand for dwellings (apartments or houses) on top of the artificial demand.  How out of reach do things have to get before the masses realize the bourgeoise scam which lies beneath it all?

People can deal with construction problems without official land ownership.  It's too easy to steer clear of disputes if people would just try dealing with each other instead of heading off to court like 2nd graders going to tell the teacher.  

The biggest land disputes come when a capitalist organization wants to plunk a business down in a residential area.  That won't be a problem at all in an anarcho-communism because there is nothing to capitalize on and no reason to capitalize.  Plus, the neighborhoods would have much greater power to prohibit it from happening because the courts will not be there to force eminent domain to their preferred customer... the corporation.  I have read some eminent domain cases.  Those are not "majority rules" cases; they are "the majority of money rules".  We need to remove courts from having that kind of preferential power so that the majority can rule again.

Hold people responsible for their actions directly.  Land ownership gets in the way of combating destructive behavior (against the community) more than anything.  


[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-17 21:20 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2003, 11:05:00 AM »
The problem I see is that humans are inherently selfish. People generally look out for themselves before they look out for someone else.

I want my acre to be on a bluff over looking a river.  Give some other poor sole the acre in the 5 year flood plain. You can have an acre in the desert. I?m not worried about the ?biggest land disputes? I?m worried about the small ones. If you decide to   Why do you get to work at the power plant and I have to work at the sewage plant? You go work in the hot sun, picking citrus, while I sit on my butt in an air conditioned room monitoring the power plant. Who decides all this?
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Offline ClayL

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« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2003, 03:08:00 PM »
Here's one I can't even explain:

"virtualized, commoditized IT environment?"

CL
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Offline JDavid

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« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2003, 06:26:00 PM »
Each person decides on their own which area in which they want to produce their part.  It is no major issue either because in a town of 18,000 most people will only work maybe one 8 hour day out of an entire month to pull their community duty.  If you don't want to study anything, be a sewer worker or do the garbage hauling.  Jobs like those will be more swamped with people than the jobs that take more to learn, so that means more people.  More people = less hours.  To do something complex like become a surgeon, people would only let ya work on them if you have become qualified to do it (and we don't need government-approved qualifications either, the fact that they graduated and their reputation is qualification enough).  Those jobs will probably  be less saturated, so they'll work more hours.  Still, jobs of that level will not require 40+ hour work weeks from each person because surgeons will be busting through schools much more easily once schools are no longer capitalist-exclusive and the students aren't having to work shit jobs to get through their years in school.  See the competition doesn't exist in this scenario.  There is always more room for more people because more people cuts back on everyone's hours.  Everyone can work anywhere they want because it just means cutting back on everyone else's time they have to spend there without damaging people's "income" like it would today.  No one needs income living like this, but if they want one, they can get into market socialism.

Being selfish works just fine in anarcho-communism.  You have more freedom to be selfish in such a society than you do now.  Being selfish feels pretty good in the current system, but I think selfishness would just be really boring in anarcho-communism.  People could do that though.  It wouldn't harm a thing as long as they weren't intruding on others or stealing.  The rulers of today are selfish, they are intruding and they are stealing from others.

If an anarcho community is going to go to the trouble of establishing itself with utilities, agriculture, construction and so on, they aren't going to do it on flood plains.  There's plenty of good land to do it on.  The people who will live on flood plains will probably be the people who hate society and want to live in exile.  There's no reason to live on a flood plain unless you just wanted to for some weird reason.

What does government do to solve "small" land disputes?  Nothing that the people couldn't do on their own.  Especially if you consider how people will not be clinging to a piece of land for dear life since they never sank any money into it in the first place in anarcho-communism.  Without artificial restrictions, the solutions are more fluid.

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On 2003-05-19 08:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The problem I see is that humans are inherently selfish. People generally look out for themselves before they look out for someone else.



I want my acre to be on a bluff over looking a river.  Give some other poor sole the acre in the 5 year flood plain. You can have an acre in the desert. I?m not worried about the ?biggest land disputes? I?m worried about the small ones. If you decide to   Why do you get to work at the power plant and I have to work at the sewage plant? You go work in the hot sun, picking citrus, while I sit on my butt in an air conditioned room monitoring the power plant. Who decides all this?



[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-19 15:30 ]
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