Puff-puff

[Anonymous]

John Ashcroft and John Brown III  you suck.  Bobby DuPont moreso as well.  Free Ed Rosenthal.  DuPont was on a "Taboo: Drugs" special the other day on television (TLC?) and it was the first time I actually saw that nerdy face on fornits: anonanon actually speak.  Times are scary now with current legislation.  The world is becoming the program and the government is more like staff.  Since the 70's I could always purchase a bong under the guise of a vase, water pipe, etc. and now stores in my area have been closed and the shelves cleared.  There used to be additional info at hightimes.com on why this is happening.  Chong will now have be drug tested?  How fucking communistic is that?  Our country should allow Chong the liberty to be who they are.
He is FUCKING CHONG, man!!!
 :smokin:

[JDavid]

that's all a good rant, except that communism isn't a bad thing.  Real communism is awesome... now known as anarcho-communism.  Authoritarian communism, also known as Marxism, is tyrannically horrible.  So replace "communistic" with "tyrannical" and I'll be agreeing with ya.



[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-14 17:17 ]

[ehm]

On 2003-05-14 17:15:00, JDavid wrote:

"that's all a good rant, except that communism isn't a bad thing.  Real communism is awesome... now known as anarcho-communism.  Authoritarian communism, also known as Marxism, is tyrannically horrible.  So replace "communistic" with "tyrannical" and I'll be agreeing with ya.





[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-14 17:17 ]"

 :tup: I'd have to agree. The situation in Iraq, for instance would run remarkably with a communist government. (If done right) They have so much money over there.

[JDavid]

I stick to the belief that communism as a form of government cannot work, because power always corrupts.  I believe no one can be trusted with any power except their own power to run their own lives.  Anti-government communism is different.  It is only a means of production.  It's basically a volunteer effort where the people in a community do their 2 hours a day at the utility plant, the agricultural farm, the hospital or in construction in order to have access to all of that in return for free.  We can do it without a government.  If the workers of the world understood anarcho-communism, we would end all war forever, no one would be homeless or starving, we'd have no more corporate rule, rent regimes or executives making 400 to 1000 times more than the workers, and so on.  

We can't do this as a government because it will turn out like the USSR or North Korea.  Those are monopolies over the means of survival and production.  Monopolies are the worst manifestation of capitalism.  North Korea is only one monopoly while the USA is a few thousand monopolies.  That's the only difference in my mind.

Too bad Iraq is going to be under imperial corporate rule also.  They get to live their 227 years of corporate tyranny now, just like u$.

On 2003-05-14 17:33:00, Mo wrote:

:tup: I'd have to agree. The situation in Iraq, for instance would run remarkably with a communist government. (If done right) They have so much money over there.

[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-14 20:40 ]

[ehm]

On 2003-05-14 20:40:00, JDavid wrote:

"I stick to the belief that communism as a form of government cannot work, because power always corrupts.  I believe no one can be trusted with any power except their own power to run their own lives.  Anti-government communism is different.  It is only a means of production.  It's basically a volunteer effort where the people in a community do their 2 hours a day at the utility plant, the agricultural farm, the hospital or in construction in order to have access to all of that in return for free.  We can do it without a government.  If the workers of the world understood anarcho-communism, we would end all war forever, no one would be homeless or starving, we'd have no more corporate rule, rent regimes or executives making 400 to 1000 times more than the workers, and so on.  



We can't do this as a government because it will turn out like the USSR or North Korea.  Those are monopolies over the means of survival and production.  Monopolies are the worst manifestation of capitalism.  North Korea is only one monopoly while the USA is a few thousand monopolies.  That's the only difference in my mind.



Too bad Iraq is going to be under imperial corporate rule also.  They get to live their 227 years of corporate tyranny now, just like u$.

On 2003-05-14 17:33:00, Mo wrote:



:tup: I'd have to agree. The situation in Iraq, for instance would run remarkably with a communist government. (If done right) They have so much money over there.

[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-14 20:40 ]"

I guess I really meant "if done right."
 I like the way you think.

[JDavid]

Yeah I did pick up on that when you first said it.  I knew what ya meant.  I just have no faith that it can be done right when any power is centralized.  We've had centuries and centuries to prove that government works, and it only screws up every good idea out there.

I guess I really meant "if done right."

 I like the way you think."

[Hamiltonf]

Interesting discussion.  I've heard it said that China is a capitalistic economy with a communist government.  
At the same time I've heard fierce opponents of the American Way describe the corporate elite of the US (who like to oppose government interferance) as Anarcho-capitalists.
Could it be that the two societies have more in common than we realise?

[JDavid]

Yep, China is capitalist with one small group acting as the executives over everything inside China.  That's how it goes when any country attempts to centralize communism.  It winds up with the ruling class capitalizing off the working class through exporting, trading with other capitalist countries, while the people end up living in cubby holes working 16 hour days for 12 cents an hour.  That's definitely not anarcho-communism.  

It's amazing that it has taken place in China and Russia like it has because: what a huge abundance of land those two countries have!  You'd think if anyone can quit restricting the people from having free land it would be them, but hell no.  The government hordes it, denies the population access to use it (so does the U$) and reduces the people to living 4 to 6 people to a 12x12 dorm or something.

We could have free land in the US.  The lower 48 states is 1.9 billion acres.  The total population including Alaska and Hawaii is somewhere around 280 million.  If we gave each person 1 free acre, totalling 280 million acres, that still leaves 1.6 billion acres open for natural habitat, roads, metropolitan type community buildings, factories and so on.  Our government won't let this happen though.  They want ya to be restricted from the land, work as a wage slave for a CEO and hand that money over to a land horder while the rich subdivision developers horde even more land, build house after house whenever they get around to it then put a quarter of a million dollar price tag on each one.

Anarcho-capitalists are an interesting and weird group.  Anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron because their capitalism requires a government to enforce their property rights so that they can charge for rent, maintain ownership over the means of production and keep workers in a subservient role.  Anarcho-capitalists want to keep the one thing anarchists want to get rid of the most... worker exploitation.  The fact that a government is necessary in order for that to happen is what's boggling about why they use the anarcho- prefix.  They call themselves "rational anarchy" when there's nothing rational about it.  Oxymorons, worker exploitation and a required government is a giant mess.

I'd say anarcho-capitalism does resemble the USA, but the US is far too dominant over everything including corporations to really be anarcho-capitalist.  

The only good thing anarcho-capitalists realize is that laws which enforce monopoly power need to be removed also.  So, at least they are willing to capitalize in the face of fierce competition to drive prices down across any or all industries.

The Libertarian Party in the US are anarcho capitalists.  I used to use them and their web site to show people why I think less government is better.  I also used to think it was a good idea to transition from that to real anarchy, but I don't anymore.  I think the whole party system is illegitimate because anytime anything is centralized, lobbyists will infect it and it will work like a virus against all of the people.

On 2003-05-15 05:12:00, Hamiltonf wrote:

"Interesting discussion.  I've heard it said that China is a capitalistic economy with a communist government.  

At the same time I've heard fierce opponents of the American Way describe the corporate elite of the US (who like to oppose government interferance) as Anarcho-capitalists.

Could it be that the two societies have more in common than we realise?"

[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-15 07:07 ]

[ehm]

On 2003-05-15 06:54:00, JDavid wrote:

"Yep, China is capitalist with one small group acting as the executives over everything inside China.  That's how it goes when any country attempts to centralize communism.  It winds up with the ruling class capitalizing off the working class through exporting, trading with other capitalist countries, while the people end up living in cubby holes working 16 hour days for 12 cents an hour.  That's definitely not anarcho-communism.  



It's amazing that it has taken place in China and Russia like it has because: what a huge abundance of land those two countries have!  You'd think if anyone can quit restricting the people from having free land it would be them, but hell no.  The government hordes it, denies the population access to use it (so does the U$) and reduces the people to living 4 to 6 people to a 12x12 dorm or something.



We could have free land in the US.  The lower 48 states is 1.9 billion acres.  The total population including Alaska and Hawaii is somewhere around 280 million.  If we gave each person 1 free acre, totalling 280 million acres, that still leaves 1.6 billion acres open for natural habitat, roads, metropolitan type community buildings, factories and so on.  Our government won't let this happen though.  They want ya to be restricted from the land, work as a wage slave for a CEO and hand that money over to a land horder while the rich subdivision developers horde even more land, build house after house whenever they get around to it then put a quarter of a million dollar price tag on each one.



Anarcho-capitalists are an interesting and weird group.  Anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron because their capitalism requires a government to enforce their property rights so that they can charge for rent, maintain ownership over the means of production and keep workers in a subservient role.  Anarcho-capitalists want to keep the one thing anarchists want to get rid of the most... worker exploitation.  The fact that a government is necessary in order for that to happen is what's boggling about why they use the anarcho- prefix.  They call themselves "rational anarchy" when there's nothing rational about it.  Oxymorons, worker exploitation and a required government is a giant mess.



I'd say anarcho-capitalism does resemble the USA, but the US is far too dominant over everything including corporations to really be anarcho-capitalist.  



The only good thing anarcho-capitalists realize is that laws which enforce monopoly power need to be removed also.  So, at least they are willing to capitalize in the face of fierce competition to drive prices down across any or all industries.



The Libertarian Party in the US are anarcho capitalists.  I used to use them and their web site to show people why I think less government is better.  I also used to think it was a good idea to transition from that to real anarchy, but I don't anymore.  I think the whole party system is illegitimate because anytime anything is centralized, lobbyists will infect it and it will work like a virus against all of the people.

On 2003-05-15 05:12:00, Hamiltonf wrote:



"Interesting discussion.  I've heard it said that China is a capitalistic economy with a communist government.  



At the same time I've heard fierce opponents of the American Way describe the corporate elite of the US (who like to oppose government interferance) as Anarcho-capitalists.



Could it be that the two societies have more in common than we realise?"

[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-15 07:07 ]"

Good stuff. Such a pipe dream though. US really sucks in a shit load of ways. (I'm feeling eloquent today.) *sigh* If only...

[ClayL]

What a bunch of panty-waste whiners! Why don't you try criticizing the government the way you do here in Chinia? Your family would recieve a bill for $.14. The price of the bullet you precious example of a government used to kill you. What about a muslim nation you say? Break the laws of the Koran and poof! The best thing that could happen is you'd go to jail. In some of them, they drag your ass in front of the Mosque on Friday and lop off your head with a scimitar. The taliban? They wouldn't even be nice to you before killing you. You are American, an infedel! They think they are doing you a favor.

Everything is bad, because I can't smoke dope legally. (Boo Hoo!) I'm having trouble buying a bong! (Sniffle, sniffle.) I'll have to make one myself. Maybe smoking dope does kill ones motivation to get things done.

Communism is based off the principle that there is one big pile of money and the wealthy people got there first and took more than their fair share. Well this is BS. Much research has shown wealthy people to be frugal, but hard working people who are willing to take risks. Most of these risks don't payoff. A few do. Wealthy people save their money and don't blow it on things. Matter of fact, I believe when they walk over a penny, their butt's go KA-CHING!

There are quite a few things I dislike about American society. I am not about to say that our form of government sucks though or that some other form of government is better. To be honest it is a good thing our government is large or those bozo's could be your boss. I can't think of any society that is more free than the US.

CL

[ehm]

On 2003-05-15 08:14:00, ClayL wrote:

"What a bunch of panty-waste whiners! Why don't you try criticizing the government the way you do here in Chinia? Your family would recieve a bill for $.14. The price of the bullet you precious example of a government used to kill you. What about a muslim nation you say? Break the laws of the Koran and poof! The best thing that could happen is you'd go to jail. In some of them, they drag your ass in front of the Mosque on Friday and lop off your head with a scimitar. The taliban? They wouldn't even be nice to you before killing you. You are American, an infedel! They think they are doing you a favor.



Everything is bad, because I can't smoke dope legally. (Boo Hoo!) I'm having trouble buying a bong! (Sniffle, sniffle.) I'll have to make one myself. Maybe smoking dope does kill ones motivation to get things done.



Communism is based off the principle that there is one big pile of money and the wealthy people got there first and took more than their fair share. Well this is BS. Much research has shown wealthy people to be frugal, but hard working people who are willing to take risks. Most of these risks don't payoff. A few do. Wealthy people save their money and don't blow it on things. Matter of fact, I believe when they walk over a penny, their butt's go KA-CHING!



There are quite a few things I dislike about American society. I am not about to say that our form of government sucks though or that some other form of government is better. To be honest it is a good thing our government is large or those bozo's could be your boss. I can't think of any society that is more free than the US.



CL"

Look out! Clay's getting his panties in a bunge! Chill dude, it's cool...! Here take a hit...(I'm kidding)

whatEVER Clay. Let people have their little fantasies. I personally said, "
Good stuff. Such a pipe dream though. *US really sucks in a shit load of ways. (I'm feeling eloquent today.) *sigh* If only..."

*I didn't say in all ways.
No harm in dreaming. Imagination makes good writers too.

Just cuz you don't Puff the magic Dragon...

[ehm]

PS - I just feel sorry for Tommy. Screw Ashcroft.

[JDavid]

We're not advocating China.  I was talking against China, using it as an example of why communism as a form of government is horrible.

All of the negatives in all countries are rooted in authoritarianism... hierarchies establishing themselves to force the population to work to the top tier's benefit.  China, the Arab world, The United States, everywhere.  I'm talking about removing authority, especially since in order to have authority, you must use force.  The fact that it requires force, such as executions of Chinese political dissidents or infidels in the Arab world means that it is not natural.

Everyone knows that in the US we do not get tortured or indiscriminantly executed (except for in the past, the natives).  No one is complaining about not being executed, but to consider that freedom is putting a serious limit on freedom.  Our US government is only different in that it has discovered that torture and execution of dissidents is not necessary in order to gain what they want from us... capital.  They get their capital from us through rent, mortgages, taxes, fines, etc and every bit of that is accomplished by threatening us if we do not comply.  Wage slavery or enforced poverty is not a choice, it is a threat.

Check out some right-wing chat rooms sometime.  Almost any time you strongly disagree with them and will not let them win an argument, they start talking about how you should be killed.  That's an example of the genocidal force mentality that is required to hold such a system in place.  It has not reached that point yet internally (except for against the natives) in the US, but that is where it is headed.  

The US has already committed its genocidal rampage all over Central America throughout the 20th century, all in the name of capitalism.  The only place the US has not decimated or at least severly interfered in Central America is Costa Rica.  It is amazing that we do not have a Central American version of Al Qaida attacking us too.

The US are the ones who demanded that the World Bank and the IMF impose conditions on the 44 developing countries who were receiving unconditional investments since 1944.  Now those 44 countries are in huge debt.  All in the name of capitalism.

The US's tyranny is mostly abroad, but once the foreign conquests have been milked for all they are worth, the tyranny will grow even tighter internally unless we smash the state first.

If everyone had capital, there would be no need for the capitalist system.  In order for one person to be rich, many, many other people must be poor.  Anarchists could be considered "against wealth", but actually we want wealth to become obsolete and pointless by making each person as wealthy as possible without enforcing extra  privileged status at the expense of others.  Anarchists are against hording and restricting the means to survival in order to capitalize on it.  The reason is: it puts a small group of people in power over the masses as the population is put into the subservient role in order to have the restrictions to the means of survival temporarily removed.  I just don't see anything that justifies forcing people to serve the bourgeoise... to use other people's lives to the ruling class's benefit, and to do it with the threat of police or military action with or without torture.  I think this is a much better idea than China.

On 2003-05-15 08:14:00, ClayL wrote:

"What a bunch of panty-waste whiners! Why don't you try criticizing the government the way you do here in Chinia? Your family would recieve a bill for $.14. The price of the bullet you precious example of a government used to kill you. What about a muslim nation you say? Break the laws of the Koran and poof! The best thing that could happen is you'd go to jail. In some of them, they drag your ass in front of the Mosque on Friday and lop off your head with a scimitar. The taliban? They wouldn't even be nice to you before killing you. You are American, an infedel! They think they are doing you a favor.



Everything is bad, because I can't smoke dope legally. (Boo Hoo!) I'm having trouble buying a bong! (Sniffle, sniffle.) I'll have to make one myself. Maybe smoking dope does kill ones motivation to get things done.



Communism is based off the principle that there is one big pile of money and the wealthy people got there first and took more than their fair share. Well this is BS. Much research has shown wealthy people to be frugal, but hard working people who are willing to take risks. Most of these risks don't payoff. A few do. Wealthy people save their money and don't blow it on things. Matter of fact, I believe when they walk over a penny, their butt's go KA-CHING!



There are quite a few things I dislike about American society. I am not about to say that our form of government sucks though or that some other form of government is better. To be honest it is a good thing our government is large or those bozo's could be your boss. I can't think of any society that is more free than the US.



CL"

[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-15 10:51 ]

[Antigen]

Clay, all I can say to your post is that I will never accept "Not as bad as _______ dictatorship" as a proper standard of conduct for our country.

There is something very wrong with the way things are going here lately. And I think it has a whole lot to do with the fact that the same people who brought us Straight, Inc. currently occupy the offices, halls and lobbies of power within our government and the IVth Estate. And they believe in all it stands for to such an extreme degree that they put their own kids through it 30 years ago and still to this day! Wasn't Mel and Betty's grandson in PFC recently? Any idea what kind of place Noelle Bush is in right now?

On 2003-05-15 10:01:00, JDavid wrote:

"We're not advocating China.  I was talking against China, using it as an example of why communism as a form of government is horrible.


All of the negatives in all countries are rooted in authoritarianism... hierarchies establishing themselves to force the population to work to the top tier's benefit.

I don't know how you reconcile Communism with freedom. Maybe we're defining the term differently. I don't think it's possible to have peace without property rights. As libertarian as the native nations were, they still had the occasional war over hunting and trading rights, among other things. In a 4 mile/hr world, they still deemed it worthwhile and necessary to hold a Great Council each year to sort things out peacfully.

On 2003-05-15 10:01:00, JDavid wrote:




Everyone knows that in the US we do not get tortured or indiscriminantly executed (except for in the past, the natives).  

That's just not true. We were tortured. I don't think we ever had it so bad as some people who suffer under our authority structure, though. Check out the November Coalition.
http://november.org/graphs/

Would you trade your worst oldcomer for a smelly, 300lb thug named Tiny with AIDS and Hep-C and a burning desire to share? I wouldn't.

On 2003-05-15 08:14:00, ClayL wrote:



Everything is bad, because I can't smoke dope legally. (Boo Hoo!) I'm having trouble buying a bong! (Sniffle, sniffle.) I'll have to make one myself. Maybe smoking dope does kill ones motivation to get things done.

No, that's not it. It's the capree and arbitrariness about it. John Ashcroft and John Walters hate people who smoke pot. And so you and I are forced to pay for some number of investigators and all that attends to spend 2 years investigating, arresting, prosecuting and punishing glass blowers and store clerks just for providing accessories that pot smokers like!

Often enough, these sting and raid operations result in the summary execution of some guy who didn't get the memo that, on this day, he was supposed to lay down and not resist the thugs who bust down his door and do a home invasion because, on this day, they happen to be a SWAT team, authorized by John Ashcroft's gang, not some other gang.

The fact is, when a decorative and expensive glass bong is not convenient, a coke bottle and tin foil will do. No one is going to have a hard time burning whatever they want to burn just because some artistic bong makers are being harassed by our government.

But here's the bigger question. We know that an awful lot of people like to smoke pot. We know this because there's so much of it around and so many references to it in popular culture. What major rock station doesn't do a 420 Pause for the Cause? Tommy Chong is not famous and successfull in spite of the fact that he smokes(smoked) pot. He's famous and successful because he's a symbol for smoking pot!

So... if we have a functional representative form of government, how is it that this government is spending $40 Billion this year--more than the year before and, likely, less than next year--to prevent an activity that is obviously well supported by the people?

On 2003-05-15 08:14:00, ClayL wrote:

Communism is based off the principle that there is one big pile of money and the wealthy people got there first and took more than their fair share. Well this is BS. Much research has shown wealthy people to be frugal, but hard working people who are willing to take risks. Most of these risks don't payoff. A few do. Wealthy people save their money and don't blow it on things. Matter of fact, I believe when they walk over a penny, their butt's go KA-CHING!

Well, what we've got going now is a system where about half of everything you and I earn goes to government in one form or another. The problem is not hard working people who've earned their wealth getting better access to the honey pot. The problem is with people who are able and willing to gain access to our earnings through coercion, not hard work and frugality.

Check it out: This is what government costs.
http://www.atr.org/cogd2002/

We're still waiting for the 2003 report to come out cause the congress critters are not done fighting over how much to steal or who gets to keep it.

On 2003-05-15 08:14:00, ClayL wrote:

There are quite a few things I dislike about American society. I am not about to say that our form of government sucks though or that some other form of government is better. To be honest it is a good thing our government is large or those bozo's could be your boss. I can't think of any society that is more free than the US.





CL"

"


I think the problem is that our form of government has not been enforce in this country since the New Deal.

Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die
-- Malachy McCourt

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous

[JDavid]

I bet in the 4 mph world they were not aware of the abundance of land.  Awareness of the abundance is the key.  1.9 billion acres in just the lower 48 states.  Also, once an anarcho-community is established, direct democracy, community descision making is the idea for resolving who builds what and where.  Those two things combined are the key to peace without an official version of land ownership: awareness of the abundance and direct democracy.  Then add self-defense on top of it and the public awareness that the family occupying certain land is prepared to defend it.

Communism as a means of production, anarcho-communism, is an option where people can have and produce the means of survival without restrictions.  The idea is that a community can get together and form hospitals, build houses, conduct agriculture and run utility plants free from a capitalist system.  If people wanted to join in, they get all that for free just for doing their part which is often guessed to be approximately 2 hour work days.  It would be their choice in which industry they wanted to participate in anarcho-communism.  There would be no such thing as "overstaffed" because the more people you've got, the less each person works.  That's what I mean by free communism.

Anyone who wants to conduct expanded trade in an anarchist world could do that too.  It's called market socialism.  That's where I think technology, automotive, entertainment and other non-vital industries will be.  This is all good & fine as long as people do not have to worry about their success as a capitalist trader in order to survive.  Market socialism is how you get an even bigger, phatter house with 3 cars in an anarchy.

Official land ownership only means the wealthy can horde it and put a huge price on it after they plunk a house down on it.  The purpose of that is to capitalize on people's survival, of course.  To make sure you have to serve the ruling class in order to aquire land.  This is land that no one created, so aside from the detail that someone bought the land (currently), who had a right to put a price on it to begin with?

A few weeks ago, I came to the conclusion that if we do reduce the US government down to Libertarian size, that's nothing but starting over back to 227 years ago except that it would not even take as long as 227 years to get this bad next time around.  It will all happen all over again unless we completely get rid of centralized government.  

Yeah Straight was a form of torture, but that's corporate/private/capitalist torture... and a good example it is of what people will do to others for capital gain.  I had the government on my mind while I was writing the "we aren't tortured" part not corporations.  Yep, it is scary that our current covernment is very closely aligned (or tightly intertwined) and involved with the very same people who committed the Straight violations.