Inside the head of a shithead parent

[teachback]

Who, please, shut your fucking trap about "data" and "tracking."  You have been owned over and over again, yet here you are still banging your head on a rock.  

Once you learn what "data" actually is, maybe you can learn to "track" it.  Until then you're just the same old half-hippie dipshit sellout that's been circling the drain since the first day you showed up.  Do us a favor and flush yourself.

I could tell you all a little something about data tracking.

[TheWho]

click back 50 pages and you can't tell the diffenrece between this conversation and then. you are all going in circles.. and you think a parent is going to get this far in a thread? lol.. dont pretend you are having these discussions for the benefit of others.. it gets old.

Yeah ?.have to say you are right, tough crowd today, round and around.  Sometimes you have to take the long road to get through to some people and these were just basic ?base line? numbers.  Imagine trying to get consensus on developing a next step or an action plan!

[Anonymous]

But that's the great thing about Fornits, Who- we don't need consensus to kick programmie ass.

[RobertBruce]

Sorry,Bob, I think I have been very clear with my position that homicide, suicide, rape and crime in general is going to happen anywhere where people and kids are, there are no exceptions. If you have a post where I state otherwise let me see it and I will rescind it.

Here you are Cindy:

RobertBruce wrote:
Kids aren't typically murdered in baseball camp by their coaches for refusing to do something. Happens in TBS's all the time.



Murder occurs all the time at TBS's???.Hmmmmm , okay

I'm not a mind reader Cindy but this statement would seem to suggest that you doubted that murders occured at TBS's all the time. Am I wrong? No. You've been given a number of examples of just such kids who were murdered, call it whatever you want, spin it however you want, it changes nothing. Those kids were all murdered and you were wrong. Now rescind away.

As for the data at hand, Deborah and I went thru this a year ago and came to an impasse on some deaths that occurred that were not classified as homicides but she felt they should have been included.

I doubt it was an impasse, in all likelyhood it was a situation where she throughouly trashed your argument but you being beyond full of yourself and too stupid to recognize when you've been beaten just called it impasse. If you want to stick with your argument though I'll ask you to provide me examples of situations where someone outside one of these places was killed by being "restrained" and the killer wasn't brought up on some kind of charges without there being a huge uproar. Better yet, could you kill someone in the manner these kids were killed and not be charged with murder? I'm asking about personally.

I thought a reasonable solution would be to create a category called ?Preventable Deaths? which may include restraints etc

This goes back to my earlier comment regarding you being no different then the actual murderers. You're splitting hairs and trying to call murder something other than what it is. When someone takes another persons life without due process its called murder Cindy. No way around it.

You may say you win, I win it doesn?t matter to me

That's cool, I win whether you're okay with it or not, but it's good that you've accepted that.

Data is data, if you want to include wilderness data , it can be expanded to include other types of schools also. I only contend that the data I presented compares TBS to Public schools, that?s what we were working on and that?s what the data speaks to.

No idiot that's the problem. You're comparing TBS's to public schools and excluding every piece of data you don't like. Deborah and Milk already gave you the figures that include all the things that should be included and you refuse to acknowledge it. Why? Because you're a moron. In the meantime you base your figures concerning deaths in TBS's on nothing but your own baseless conjecture. If you ever decide to take your head out of your ass (doubtful) you'd see that we have proven that TBS's are more dangerous than public schools/. Including the year you seem so stuck on.

I am sorry if this upsets so many people, but we just cant fudge the data to please peoples agenda, you will lose credibility and the data will be useless.

Our credibility is just fine. If there's any doubt why don't you give the Buch a call and ask him how business is. In the meantime you continue to fudge the data to please your own agendas, well yours and your puppet masters. As to upseting people, you frustrate people because we come here to provide the truth about what goes on in these places, when all you do is spew your propogandic nonsense, half truths and manipulations youre giving parents disinformation and thus not helping anyone. You keep harping about contributing something to the conversation. What have you contributed to the conversation besides wasted bandwith?

[teachback]

OzGirl-  The same could be said by a teen living in the home. Many teens hate their parents and home life, but really can't live on their own so they stay.  In my view, if they stay in the home, they have to adhere to basic rules and show consideration for other family members.  Having to live at home due to lack of options isn't a whole lot different from being at a TBS where you theoretically can walk off, but where would you go?  A boy posted on the Carlbrook thread a long time ago (Ben Sturgess) who did just that- he walked off when he  turned 18, and admitted that Carlbrook was better than the life he had on his own at that point. He hated Carlbrook and found it worthless in his case, but it was a bed and walls at least, which was more than he had on his own.

Children's rights must be re-accessed. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Living in a program cannot (and should not, Charly, shame on you) be compared to living in the home. If the home is like a TBS then it is abusive. The sick reality is that kids can become dependent on these programs in a sense. This is truly frightening and sad....

[teachback]

This was just posted over on the Straight forum.  Maia's good.  She's got the parents pegged.

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/373_Szalavitz.pdf

There are certain parents (mothers) I'd like to 'peg', but that's another story...  :lol:

[Anonymous]

Back to the original topic of this thread:

[TheWho]

Bob, you can speak all you want about winning or losing.  You have brought nothing to the table,  all I ask is you provide something to back up what you say.  Here are my numbers again and I will provide a link again if you like.  If you can add more data points lets add them its no shame on anyone, its data Bob, the basis for making decisions.  If its not correct lets fix it !!  You point to everyone else but you don?t seem to want to help or add value.  Again here is what I have, are you going to wait for others to respond or are you going to produce it yourself?

Lets work on one name at a time and then adjust the data set as we go.  Remember the time frame parameters and TBS focus.

One more time:

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000  

Elementary and secondary  schools

At School ---21 school associated Deaths  (16 Homicides,6 suicides)

Away from school  (2,124 Homicides, 1,922 Suicides)


National Center for Educational Statistics

Time frame:  July 1, 1999 thru June 2000  (52,000,000 students)

At School --- 21 school associated Deaths  (16  Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)

Away from school  (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)


And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.

So At TBS?s the results would be:

At School  ---   0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)

Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)


So from a TBS vs National average the TBS?s had a lower rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school.?

[Anne Bonney]

Back to the original topic of this thread:

Talkin' 'bout peggin parents is much more fun, but whatever.

 8-)  :smokin:  ::bandit::

[TheWho]

But that's the great thing about Fornits, Who- we don't need consensus to kick programmie ass.

No -  what we were talking about was coming to consensus on some base line data and defining  categories such as Suicide, Homicide and introducing a category:  "Preventable Death"  to help assess the safety of TBS's vs. public school sector.  This may even go as far as to support whether TBS's are safer or less safe than public school etc.  What we have now is scattered data and a sense from many that TBS's are less safe than public schools, but we really dont know unless we look at the data.

[RobertBruce]

It just occured to me, I've seen Cindy before. He was in a movie-playing himself naturally. Here I've even got the text from his scene:

ARTHUR:
You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Cindy.
[pause]
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
[pause]
I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me in my court at Camelot.
[pause]
You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?
[pause]
You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.

CINDY:
None shall pass.

ARTHUR:
What?

CINDY:
None shall pass.

ARTHUR:
I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Cindy, but I must cross this bridge.

CINDY:
Then you shall die.

ARTHUR:
I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!

CINDY:
I move for no man.

ARTHUR:
So be it!

ARTHUR and CINDY:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.
[ARTHUR chops CINDY's left arm off]

ARTHUR:
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.

CINDY:
'Tis but a scratch.

ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm's off!

CINDY:
No, it isn't.

ARTHUR:
Well, what's that, then?

CINDY:
I've had worse.

ARTHUR:
You liar!

CINDY:
Come on, you pansy!
[clang]
Huyah!
[clang]
Hiyaah!
[clang]
Aaaaaaaah!
[ARTHUR chops CINDY's right arm off]

ARTHUR:
Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--

CINDY:
Hah!
[kick]
Come on, then.

ARTHUR:
What?

CINDY:
Have at you!
[kick]

ARTHUR:
Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Cindy, but the fight is mine.

CINDY:
Oh, had enough, eh?

ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.

CINDY:
Yes, I have.

ARTHUR:
Look!

CINDY:
Just a flesh wound.
[kick]

ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.

CINDY:
Chicken!
[kick]
Chickennn!

ARTHUR:
Look, I'll have your leg.
[kick]
Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops CINDY's right leg off]

CINDY:
Right. I'll do you for that!

ARTHUR:
You'll what?

CINDY:
Come here!

ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?

CINDY:
I'm invincible!

ARTHUR:
You're a looney.

CINDY:
CINDY always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops CINDY's last leg off]

CINDY:
Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.

ARTHUR:
Come, Patsy.

CINDY:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

***********************************************************************

People we are in the presence of a Hollywood legend. Cindy I had no idea, you shouldnt have been so modest, that scene was amazing, it was almost like you weren't acting, almost like that really is your personality to a T.

[Deborah]

And here is the thing. Most reasonable homes do not run like TBS. Because to take Carlbrook and ASR as examples the rules are in no way reasonable, simple and fair in the way that they are with most decent parents. They are often complex, odd and difficult for a  teen to follow. If the goal is to get a rebellious teen to understand that rules exist for the good of society, then it makes not sense to ban things like wholesome friendships which ASR has a documented history of doing. it makes no sense to ban reading and instead force a kid to book "appointments" with his peers every night where he is told what can and cant be discussed. It makes no sense to ban exercise when the kid is an athlete or force it to the point of exhaustion on a recovering drug addict. it certainly makes no sense to punish a kid and socially ostricise them when they leave a school with their parents permission because they are "letting the team down" as Carlbrook did to your son.

The rules are intentionally impossible to follow because the intent is not to be reasonable. The rules and methods are designed to support a system of bait and punish. The primary goal of the program is to establish very early on 'who' is in charge, to keep the kid so daze and confused that they don't know which way is up. One can not comply with the rules the first few months when the heavy conditioning is taking place. The rules change when/if necessary in order to establish authority.

Kids fight it as long as they can and most eventually submit in order to have some of the most basic rights such as condiments, contact with their parents, home visits, to take a shit in privacy.......

What's relevant to this discussion is that 13 kids died (were killed) in "TREATMENT" during that time frame. Parents/taxpayers pay tuition that exceeds that of an ivy league college in many cases, for round-the-clock supervision. What's the problem? I feel certain that at least the majority, if not all, of those deceased kids would still be alive if they hadn't been 'treated' by this industry.

And what of the unreported deaths and injuries? Attempted suicides, broken limbs, violent assaults, inappropriate sexual contact with staff, rape, emotional/psych damage? That is the data I want.

The industry is in defense mode. Witness all the white papers and bogus studies in 2006. They wouldn't bother if critics weren't interfering with their bottom lines.

[RobertBruce]

Bob, you can speak all you want about winning or losing.  You have brought nothing to the table,  all I ask is you provide something to back up what you say.  Here are my numbers again and I will provide a link again if you like.  If you can add more data points lets add them its no shame on anyone, its data Bob, the basis for making decisions.  If its not correct lets fix it !!  You point to everyone else but you don?t seem to want to help or add value.  Again here is what I have, are you going to wait for others to respond or are you going to produce it yourself?

Lets work on one name at a time and then adjust the data set as we go.  Remember the time frame parameters and TBS focus.

One more time:



July 1, 1999 thru June 2000  

Elementary and secondary  schools

At School ---21 school associated Deaths  (16 Homicides,6 suicides)

Away from school  (2,124 Homicides, 1,922 Suicides)


National Center for Educational Statistics

Time frame:  July 1, 1999 thru June 2000  (52,000,000 students)

At School --- 21 school associated Deaths  (16  Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)

Away from school  (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)


And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.

So At TBS?s the results would be:

At School  ---   0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)

Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)


So from a TBS vs National average the TBS?s had a lower rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school.?

One more time is right. Cindy, Deborah and Milk have already put this issue to rest, theyve proven you wrong several times over. You refuse to accept the fact that more than one kid died at a TBS in the time span you're talking about. We can lead you to water Cindy but we cannot make you drink. Until you do there really isnt much more to say on the matter, because its just a waste of time. I'm sorry youre too stupid to get this but as you said yourself, you aren't interested in learning the truth.

MY conversation with you has centered on your claim that kids werent being murdered at TBS's. I and others provided you several examples of just such instances, you have thus far refused to acknowledge them. I can't make you learn Cindy, and I'm not trained nor am I willing  to deprogram you.

Remember your claim didnt say "No kids have been murdered between a certain time period." You stated as an overall general comment, thus I and others have provided you with all encompassing data. You don't want to accept it because it ruins the perception you have of these places, and of course goes against your programming.

If you want to go back to this matter comparing public schools to TBS in between 99-2000 we can, but lets focus on one matter at a time. I know you're getting upset by pop a ritilan and try to stay focused.

[teachback]

It just occured to me, I've seen Cindy before. He was in a movie-playing himself naturally. Here I've even got the text from his scene:

ARTHUR:
You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Cindy.
[pause]
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
[pause]
I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me in my court at Camelot.
[pause]
You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?
[pause]
You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.

CINDY:
None shall pass.

ARTHUR:
What?

CINDY:
None shall pass.

ARTHUR:
I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Cindy, but I must cross this bridge.

CINDY:
Then you shall die.

ARTHUR:
I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!

CINDY:
I move for no man.

ARTHUR:
So be it!

ARTHUR and CINDY:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.
[ARTHUR chops CINDY's left arm off]

ARTHUR:
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.

CINDY:
'Tis but a scratch.

ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm's off!

CINDY:
No, it isn't.

ARTHUR:
Well, what's that, then?

CINDY:
I've had worse.

ARTHUR:
You liar!

CINDY:
Come on, you pansy!
[clang]
Huyah!
[clang]
Hiyaah!
[clang]
Aaaaaaaah!
[ARTHUR chops CINDY's right arm off]

ARTHUR:
Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--

CINDY:
Hah!
[kick]
Come on, then.

ARTHUR:
What?

CINDY:
Have at you!
[kick]

ARTHUR:
Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Cindy, but the fight is mine.

CINDY:
Oh, had enough, eh?

ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.

CINDY:
Yes, I have.

ARTHUR:
Look!

CINDY:
Just a flesh wound.
[kick]

ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.

CINDY:
Chicken!
[kick]
Chickennn!

ARTHUR:
Look, I'll have your leg.
[kick]
Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops CINDY's right leg off]

CINDY:
Right. I'll do you for that!

ARTHUR:
You'll what?

CINDY:
Come here!

ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?

CINDY:
I'm invincible!

ARTHUR:
You're a looney.

CINDY:
CINDY always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops CINDY's last leg off]

CINDY:
Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.

ARTHUR:
Come, Patsy.

CINDY:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

***********************************************************************

People we are in the presence of a Hollywood legend. Cindy I had no idea, you shouldnt have been so modest, that scene was amazing, it was almost like you weren't acting, almost like that really is your personality to a T.

 :rofl:

[TheWho]

Ha,Ha,Ha  Okay Bob, I think I got your answer, (a little round about though).  No hard feelings, we'll move on.........