Author Topic: Moral clarity  (Read 11675 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2006, 09:13:48 PM »
also the "yo.u ne.eed to" = I want you to filter got me again.

lol.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Moral clarity
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2006, 09:26:38 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
also the "yo.u ne.eed to" = I want you to filter got me again.

lol.
i noticed that before... i thought i was going insane.  I kept going back and checking my post.  WTF is that about?!?!?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2006, 09:27:39 PM »
In a nutshell, when programmies tell someone YOU NE.ED TO its changed to "I WANT you to" to kind of disarm the words, I guess  :lol:

The problem is that sometimes it can mess up other instances of "you need"  :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Moral clarity
« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2006, 09:56:41 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
For one they're not professionals. Nobody had any credentials.

So.  I can call myself a professional without qualifications.  Nothing illegal about that.  I can set up a school in California by filling out a form, and signing it "Micky Mouse".  i did mean to put the "professionals" in quotations though.  it was sarcasm.

My point is that parents often assume that since these schools are referred to by "certified" educational consultants, they must be legit.  They assume a lot.  My parents assumed counselors would have been licensed.  Lots of parents assume there are safeguards in place when in reality there are few, and those that exist are not enforced.

Quote
For two, Straight was CLOSED...??

Still blows to have a program on your resumé.  I went through two years of the shittiest college in Virginia because I had a "Redlands Adult School" HS diploma.  Try explaining that shit to a decent college: "well i was in this place.. and ...well what were you there for.. you wouldn't believe me if i told you...we know why you were there you worthless junkie scum"(i was there for the stupidest reason ever... just don't ask. Hint: not drugs/alcohol)  Now, after two years, and a year off at a job, i'm back in an ok college...  Still.  It's nothign compared to where i would be had i been able to graduate high school at a reputable place.

Oh.  And try getting a security clearance, and having the school tell the investigators "he wrote inflamatory things about us on the internet"(well why didn't you sue fucktards). Program can fuck your life up logistically in all sorts of ways.  It matters little if the place is still open or not.

Quote
For three, there is no Dx made by a doctor anywhere, so if they say that with no diagnosis and no credentials and no PhD (or even a masters...) any decent lawyer would poke holes in that.

Yeah.  so what's your point.  There's no diagnosis, and there's no treatment either.  It's "emotional growth".  Most programs (not all) are careful about the wording of their advertising literature to avoid technically claiming to provide therapy.  Whether they can say "therapeutic" is up to the lawyers to quibble over.

Quote
Nevertheless, when I asked my own parents and my family members, they said they'd never fall for someone trying to cut off communication. I know at least some of them are cunning and distrustful eough to know better, but I guess some do get sucked in.

Programs are not always as advertised.  I was told i would be able to write my GF.  nope.  call her too. nope.  use my computer, nope.  False advertising all over the map.  And once you've aggreed to it all, paid for 6 months in advance(with a 5 day refund period, and a no phone calls for the first 30 days), what can you do?  Parents think "well it can't be that bad, he hasn't written us about it(gee i wonder why)".  They think "we've already paid for it, and other students are doing fine, why can't my son?"

Go ahead and think your parents can't be conned.  My mom was a PO, dealt with criminals and con artists on a daily basis, and even she wa sucked in.

From my experience, the more arrogant, the more overconfident you are, the more intelligent -- the easier it is to manipulate your mind.  Ask a hypnotist.  The more intelligent, the easier to hypnotize.  Everybody breaks at some point.  No exceptions.  It has to do with hope, and other emotions rather than rational thought.

Quote
At any rate, if your kid is getting treated for depression, ADD, or whatever, why the fucking hell would I want you to go through the "do anything to get out" thing anyway? Where the hell did that entire paradigm of "something necessary is painful and hard and anything hard and painful is necessary" come from anyway?

"emotional growth".  That's why.  Not all parents get the "dead insane in-jail" shtick right off the bat.  They customize their delivery pitch to the parent.  They make it sound right for everybody.  Just look at the page source for any program homepage and look at the keywords they use.

Quote
Regardless, anyone who comes HERE has no excuse, having seen what programs do to the kids, the staff, the parents, having links provided to all of the facts available, and being told point blank to get through the program bullshit and find out for themselves.


That i aggree with you on.... unless they are flat out scared off the board once they get here *cough*...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #64 on: December 25, 2006, 01:55:21 AM »
Well, Psy, you hit the nail right on the head there.

And I'll take the hint to not bite anyone's head off anymore...  :)

We REALLY need some FAQs and stickies. Seriously.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #65 on: December 25, 2006, 01:59:10 AM »
Well, Psy, you hit the nail right on the head there.

And I'll take the hint to not bite anyone's head off anymore...  :)

We REALLY need some FAQs and stickies. Seriously.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2006, 10:16:37 AM »
FAQs... now there's a seriously great idea. It would save a lot of typing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2006, 12:47:38 PM »
FAQ 1: Should I send my kid to a program?

Answer: No

FAQ 2: But I really really think I need a program, are you sure?

Answer: Yes
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2006, 12:50:03 PM »
:rofl:

I think I'm going to go around calling the above post the Official Fornits FAQ and link to it accordingly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline exhausted

  • Posts: 596
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2006, 06:13:08 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
FAQ 1: Should I send my kid to a program?

Answer: No

FAQ 2: But I really really think I need a program, are you sure?

Answer: Yes
I want to ask everyone is it really as black & white as this, are the shades of grey?

The reasoning behind my question is....
Does anyone know of, or can they find perhaps a suicide or a terrible outcome because their parents didn't send them to a program of some sort?
I know this is a little 'you will never know what would or wouldn't have happened either way'
I guess I just like to look at both sides of the story

Personally, if I hadn't had been taken into care myself, I hate to think how I would have turned out, although I was never put in an abusive situation by staff, the other kids pretty much did what they liked when no one else was around, but I will never regret having been taken away, and trust me, there is no program like brainwashing here, I just know I am grateful for it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2006, 06:16:41 PM »
No.

They don't provide therapy. They have zero evidence they do anything beneficial at all! Actually the programs just have zero FACT and evidence... period.

Obviously being black and white such as that without backing up what we have to say would be... well, stupid, and be stooping nearly as low as ST, but considering there is zero proof programs do anything good at all, zero proof any of the children in them need any help at all or have anything wrong, as there is no screening and no non-admissions, how can you say that?

How does a "emotional growth"/B.M. program prevent a suicide anyway?

How many people have committed suicide after a program, either showing it did not prevent it or it caused it? I dont know, Deborah has actually compiled a list and Im not gonna go look for that on this day, but there have been quite a few people who have died because of programs and not one person who it has been shown has been saved becuase of one.

Period.

Merry Christmas.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2006, 06:28:33 PM »
Quote
but I will never regret having been taken away,


The government taking kids out of the home because of abuse or neglect isn't even remotely in the same ballpark as what we usually talk about here. The only thing the two concepts have in common is that the kids aren't at home anymore and.. that's seriously about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline exhausted

  • Posts: 596
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #72 on: December 25, 2006, 06:34:37 PM »
Okay fair enough points:

2nd question: There's a lot said here about children who say they feel the program saved their lives, helped turn them around, they are eternally grateful to theior paremnts for sending them (I'm going to make TB an exception because that is just sick as hell)
It seems posters here straight away come to the conclusion that the kid says this because they are programmed to think that way, the whole 'fake it to make it'

How do we know if there are really kids who aren't faking it? That they really didn't know how to get out of that hole they were digging themselves? Surely of those who say this is the facts, 100% of them can't be just brainwashed program kids, can they? Or can they?

And Happy Xmas to you all, sorry it's a bit late in the day
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline White Cracker Man

  • Posts: 204
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #73 on: December 25, 2006, 06:48:57 PM »
well, i would say how could anyone say that whatever they say helped them could not be achieved by local resources or whatever. that is part of the brainwashing,  we are saving you etc., we are the only ones who can save you, also there are many programs who are close to tb in terms of abuse.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Moral clarity
« Reply #74 on: December 25, 2006, 06:52:00 PM »
It still seems you don't completely grasp how a program works, and what it does, to do what it does.

First of all, to re-iterate, it is NOT therapy, or therapeutic!Furthermore, they say they are not therapeutic and not set up to provide therapy! Any program that does so uses someone who is an actual therapist to give it to a kid on their 'campus'.

What a program does is "behavior modification" and "emotional growth". Behavior modification boils down to "do what we want and we won't hurt you, and we just might slowly give you back normal rights, but call them priviladges, you bad little kid!" and "emotional growth" is that nonsensical psycho-cryfest nonsense with the seminars and the loaded language and the mind-games, blah blah blah screaming until you cough up blood and thinking that emotional outbursts and the euphoria after traumatic events are 'good'.

Factor in the isolation from the outside world AND THEIR OWN PARENTS, in addition to telling everyone to not believe them and to EXPECT the child to try to escape the place, and you basically have something set up to keep the kid cut off from any means of escape or outreach to help, and to keep them in their own little 'program world'. Naturally, in those conditions, you can instigate any sort of "Behavior modification" (what we call brainwashing or mind control) you want. Why? You have all the essentials needed to do that!

http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html <- BITE model. Behavior, information, thoughts, emotions. Programs control how they behave, control what information gets to them, challenges and undermines their thoughts through the seminars, stress, isolation and loaded language, and also fucks with their emotions.

Waking up with someone shireking at you, and being forced to make a bed perfectly or face humiliation, physical punishment or more time in the program, marching "nut to butt" heel to toe to eat breakfast and finish the plate or you're threatened with more of the same from above for anorexia or whatever, then doing self-taught school work with no teacher, tons of 'worksheets' for any rules you have broken (and belive me, you've broken something) and forced to rat out everyone else to move up the program as well as their bullshit "raps", "propheets" or "seminars" does not fix anything, does not treat anything, does not prevent anything, except possibly a normal life.

Any changes that occur in a program is a function of their age. You grow up in your teens, no matter were you are while you are in that age!

Again, there is ZERO proof of changed recidivism for a program (except I have heard STRAIGHT increased drug use but I don't have the statistic on me, nor do I have the inclination to go look) and zero proof of any positive change or benefit at all to anyone except the people who own a program making money!

Someone can SAY that it saved them because if they were acting bad before a program, and get out and they don't, someone looking for some explanation or reason or meaning might pin it on the program, especially after being the programs property and having thier mind fucked with for such a long time and their pro-program family reinforcing it while they were still in the program, but again there is basically no justification or substance to such a statement.

Again, because there is no proof programs have done anything except warehouse a kid while he grows up (thats like saying WWASPS cured you of a cold if you were put in a program while you had a cold and when you got out you did not have one..) and say coallation is causation.

Additionally, I remember someone saying most kids who "go off the path" do so for 18 months said and done. Most people just need to act out in their teens anyway becuase they're teenagers and they're going from being a child to an adult even though society and thier parents don't want them to, and there is a lack of maturity as well.

Programs are very good at presenting themselves as a fix to certain death or failure (dead insane or in jail) but humanity got by fine without them, MOST people get by fine without programs (never heard of them or just can not afford them) and when they're gone we'll be fine as well. They just say they treat everything, prey on or create parental hysteria, and once they sink their teeth into a kid they use every hook they can to make sure the kid stays there and the money keeps rolling in.

Sorry to be so long winded but there is a lot to say.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."