The Fallen

[Valhalla]

I would also be very interested in seeing your list, especially if you've been able to verify it.  It would certainly help us out here with making ours more accurate.  

And compiling this list IS difficult in many ways, but I totally agree that it needs to be done... for many reasons.

Sorry, Valhalla.  If my redundancy didn't hit it home, I'll say it again.  I am against the idea of a centralized list or named memorials because of the three reasons aforementioned.  Ask someone that has been at this a while (including Wes, whom has also "been there done that")  what they may think about this.  I am certain they will concur that this is a futile attempt.

My list wouldn't help you.  
You are admittedly accepting bogus, questionable-at-best data, with hundreds and hundreds of known omissions, as legitimate information.  No seriously bonafide research is ever approached in this way.
NO list would help you.  

From someone who has been there and knows:  The only way that you could ever have anything close to accurate information is to cross reference a list that includes the names of every teen that ever went through all STRAIGHT facilities with the social security death index to see who is kicking and who has since kicked it.

In closing, if it hasn't already, this avenue seems to be digressing in a similiar fashion as it did years ago when I was working on a similiar list.  Things soon devolve to signify nothing more than a morbidly perverse game of "who's dead and how did they die".  My thoughts are that any collaborative list unfortunately has an  allure analagous to watching "Faces of Death" as a teen or watching beheadings in Iraq on the internet.  Only this list involves people we used to sit next to in group.  

One last question, is it too much to ask to possibly talk to surviving family members of the deceased?  See what they think.  There are many that would be more than happy to share their opinion with you.  Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post.

At this point, I'm wondering if you're just trying to stir the pot.  Your redundency has certainly hit home, as I have read all that you've written.   I find what you say extremely unhelpful.  You say a lot, but your words are empty.  You don't want to help us, so why are you even bothering to post here?  

'Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post'.  WTF???  I don't need to ask Wes anything.  Where did that even come from?  This has nothing to do with him.  It has everything to do with those who are dead...and we want to simly remember them.

If you have anything further to say, please feel free to PM me and use your real identiy.  Otherwise, I will continue to think of you as someone simply trying to stir the pot.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand.  Why is it so important to know who exactly has died and who has not?

 :nworthy:  ::alieneyesa::  ::argue::  ::bangin::  ::rocker::  ::soapbox::  ::puke::

[starry-eyed pirate]

Yes. Well... indeed...indeed.  

First of all I do not have a list of the fallen.  There really is no list that I know of except the one in my head and the one on Webdiva's site, which is nowhere near complete, or even close.(no disrespect to Webdiva.  Her site rules!!)  That's why I am glad you are workin' on it, Valhalla.

2ndly, the anon guest who advises us does so with those we want to honor in mind.  I respect that. (drinkin my wine)

Everyone is an individual.  Each has their way.

[Anonymous]

Amy was my Cousins' Wife.  She was very nice, and very quiet.  I only met her twice, but my cousin loved her very much.

[Anonymous]

At this point, I'm wondering if you're just trying to stir the pot.  Your redundency has certainly hit home, as I have read all that you've written.   I find what you say extremely unhelpful.  You say a lot, but your words are empty.  You don't want to help us, so why are you even bothering to post here?  

'Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post'.  WTF???  I don't need to ask Wes anything.  Where did that even come from?  This has nothing to do with him.  It has everything to do with those who are dead...and we want to simly remember them.

If you have anything further to say, please feel free to PM me and use your real identiy.  Otherwise, I will continue to think of you as someone simply trying to stir the pot.

I take my pot smoked...not stirred.  What would possibly motivate me to "stir the pot" with you V.?  What could I possibly have to gain by simply sharing an objective observation?

"Extremely unhelpful...empty words...don't want to help"?  Don't confuse me as some sort of adversary because I am opposed to your agenda.  My primary and only concern is for those that have passed.  It's about something that I call honor, Valhalla. I see it as the epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data.  Could my perspective be any more clear on the matter?  I am not trying to stir up anything.  

My invitation to ask Wes was because he, as I, have also attempted the same list in which you are working on, though for different reasons.  Both lists were started with the best of intentions.  My invitation was also to ask surviving family members to see what they think about their loved ones being on a list of the deceased put together by former STRAIGHT teens.  If I were dead, my mother would promptly tell you to go shit in your hat.

Mrs. Moya has a respectable list on her website of deceased teens from contemporary treatment facilities.  This is verifiable data as it is in current media and can be substantiated unlike any attempts to compile any such listing from the gulags of 20 years ago.

I won't PM you Valhalla, I don't PM anyone.  This is my real identity.  I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference if I log in with my regular user name, some fictitious one, or use my actual name-date of birth-and social security number.  It's not ME that matters, it's the words I speak, anonymously or not.

2ndly, the anon guest who advises us does so with those we want to honor in mind. I respect that. (drinkin my wine)

 Thanks, Starry.  I wish I could buy you a bottle for recognizing the true nature of my words.

[Anonymous]

The Vietnam Veterans memorial was not produced by the Viet Cong nor was that list of veterans compiled by 2-3 bozos collecting rumors and presenting it as factual information.  

I am against any list to honor the dead if it cannot be approached logically, rationally, and realistically.  If any list is produced with intention to honor the dead, it is my opinion that it must born of legitimate and factual information.  Anything less is dishonorable.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Hey.

Don't you realize that any logical, rational and realistic investigation of the truth begins with the collection of all potentially pertinent information ??  Which often times includes many rumors and fallacies  ??  I take it you don't do much critical thinkin.

I appreciate your concern and I feel the same way as far as what is required to honor the fallen.

I take offense at your allusion to the Viet Cong.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Anyway, This all started out as a telephone conversation between DF and I and we decided during that conversation, some months ago now, that we wanted to get together at the building to have a small memorial service for those who we knew and understood.  At first we thought maybe it would just be us 2 and maybe a few others, then we decided to post about it and see if there was any interest.  I think DF is taking all this very seriously.  We have tried to accomodate everyone, but have naturally failed at that.  When advised that holding the service at the building might be too much for some folks we looked for another location.  Spent a couple of weeks trying to secure another location but found nothing.  Anyone who wanted to get involved and secure a better location was welcomed to do so.  We are doin' our best here.  Such is life.  Pirate out.

[Anonymous]

Mrs. Moya has a respectable list on her website of deceased teens from contemporary treatment facilities. This is verifiable data as it is in current media and can be substantiated unlike any attempts to compile any such listing from the gulags of 20 years ago.

Could you throw up a link to this? It would be cool to see; thanks.

[Anonymous]

I take offense at your allusion to the Viet Cong.

Why?

[Anonymous]

I think some people still think that they are forever marked by shame for having been brainwashed. I think some people are fixated on their crimes and sins in such a way that they are truly killing themselves while they are still alive. If you think anything you did in Straight, including getting brainwashed by a YES, VERY CRUEL INSTITUTION WITH SOME UNDERHANDED GOVERNMENT SHIT GOING ON BEHIND IT marks you forever with shame, then you have not taken your proper place in humanity.

Let me direct you to conscripted armies of children in other countries. If you want to tell me that Straight is something YOU can never get over, then you can be of no use to these children. When you can know in your mind that you were caught up in forces and times more powerful than yourself, realize that you are (as I know and can tell you are by all the words that I have read from you) truly at core a decent and even wonderful human being, in spite of everything you did yesterday or twenty years ago, then, son, you will be transformed into a true freedom fighter on this earth.

What was perpetrated on us in Straight is a sickness the world has seen for hundreds and maybe thousands of years. You are, child, born eternal. Release yourself from the claws of history. Rise up, acknowledge that YES YOU WERE WHIPPED LIKE SLAVES WERE WHIPPED. Point to how miraculously your skin healed over. What is that? That is god. Understand your place in history so that you can rise up and be a voice in the darkness. For as long as you hide inside the crypt of your eternal shame, you cannot take the hand of any child soldier and say to them "you are forgiven. you can lay down your weapons and we will treat you from here on out as god intended you to be treated from the day you were born. i will take my knowledge of my own experience of being a child unable to escape the cruel army into which i, too, was conscripted, to tell you that this happens. it's okay, child."

We don't heal the world by throwing anyone away, at all. For as much sin as you have committed, for as weak as you have known yourself to be, there is the miracle of your knowledge of these things. Will you stop there? Or will you find, in all your righteous and rightful rage, in the confusion between what you did out of ignorance and what anyone else did out of ignorance, the most truly beautiful thing in the world? That your own heart and knowledge continue to beat and struggle with all of this meaning? What has died in you? In anyone?

Fight against the dying of the light, all soldiers. Breathe in all of the suffering in the world that YOU understand by the experience of your own days on earth and breathe out eternal peace, deep compassion for even the perpetrators of the most heinous crimes. For I will not take my place in darkness. I am not ashamed of what I have been. I have walked on this earth and comprehended by my heart and mind. I have apprehended my  own turning away, and that apprehension was terrible, and that apprehension filled me with the holy spirit.

[Anonymous]

Pass me that lovely little gun
My dear, my darting one
The cleaners are coming, one by one
You don't even want to let them start

They are knocking now upon your door
They measure the room, they know the score
They're mopping up the butcher's floor
Of your broken little hearts

O children

Forgive us now for what we've done
It started out as a bit of fun
Here, take these before we run away
The keys to the gulag

O children
Lift up your voice, lift up your voice
Children
Rejoice, rejoice

Here comes Frank and poor old Jim
They're gathering round with all my friends
We're older now, the light is dim
And you are only just beginning

O children

We have the answer to all your fears
It's short, it's simple, it's crystal dear
It's round about, it's somewhere here
Lost amongst our winnings

O children
Lift up your voice, lift up your voice
Children
Rejoice, rejoice

The cleaners have done their job on you
They're hip to it, man, they're in the groove
They've hosed you down, you're good as new
They're lining up to inspect you

O children

Poor old Jim's white as a ghost
He's found the answer that was lost
We're all weeping now, weeping because
There ain't nothing we can do to protect you

O children
Lift up your voice, lift up your voice
Children
Rejoice, rejoice

[Anonymous]

Hey.

Don't you realize that any logical, rational and realistic investigation of the truth begins with the collection of all potentially pertinent information ??  Which often times includes many rumors and fallacies  ??  I take it you don't do much critical thinkin.

I appreciate your concern and I feel the same way as far as what is required to honor the fallen.

I take offense at your allusion to the Viet Cong.

The link to Kathy's work is located at http://http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/deaths.htm.  

Starry, do you really think "logical, rational and realistic investigation of the truth begins with the collection of all potentially pertinent information ??  Which often times includes many rumors and fallacies"??  Could you, Valhalla, or anyone here realistically claw through the bullshit to ever get to the "whom died how" question anything representative of an honorable accurate list of what you are calling "The Fallen"?  

I challenge you to go forward with the accumulation of all the names that you can get your hands on.  I'll meet you back here in 5 years time and tell you once again that your list is incomplete and full of inaccuracies.  In my heart of hearts, I wish it could be done properly.  The only way to do so (as aforementioned) is to cross reference a list of all teens that ever experienced the program against the social security death index.  Good luck.

Whilst we all are survivors, veterans, ex-straights, or whatever, we are what some would describe as the last people on Earth that they would want honoring them.  Speaking personally, this is true for me.  Don't speak my name after I am gone.  I don't want to be "honored" by those that used to humiliate, restrain, and belittle me (and continue to passively do so here) during the darkest chapter of my life.  Construct  your list, shove it up your ass, but don't include me on it.  Speaking candidly, I know several from my program that have committed suicide.  I know their families and the situations surrounding their deaths.  I know how those families would feel about this and I challenge you to come up with a family that feels contrary.  Why else would I speak so passionately about such a thing.  It's about honor, plain and simple.  There is no honor in the half assed recognition of the tip of the iceberg based on information that is rumored to be true and is questionable at best.

[Anonymous]

You say... "Why else would I speak so passionately about such a thing. It's about honor, plain and simple. There is no honor in the half assed recognition of the tip of the iceberg based on information that is rumored to be true and is questionable at best."


What makes you an expert on this issue? Honoring dead people who were victims of it by victims of it surely is very honorable. If there's scores of survivors of it who "pay their respects" to those who are gone forever, then why give them a bunch of shit for actually DOING something about it?  :idea:  Stop acting like a coward and do something "honorable", otherwise just leave us alone to remember these folks as we see fit.

[Anonymous]

Whilst we all are survivors, veterans, ex-straights, or whatever, we are what some would describe as the last people on Earth that they would want honoring them.

Well said.