The Who

[TheWho]

DJ Wrote:

I suspect MA laws are similar and one licensed provider overseeing 4.5 counselors would be illegal. We can verify that, though.

Do it!!  Lets not all speculate!!

[Troll Control]

You do it.  And cite your sources.

[Troll Control]

Scooter Libby, I like that!!  Better than Cindy, I think.  

I remember RobertBruce started calling me ?cindy? for Cindy who from whosville (from the grinch) after he lost his first (of many) debates with me.  That?s how he deals with his humiliation? but you DJ!!  I am surprised, any therapists that are reading must get a little giggle out of it, with you claiming to be a professional in the field and all, resorting to name calling just because you were found to be wrong and caught in yet another series of lies and had to forfeit the debate?. RobertBruce has taught you well, DJ,  I can tell you two are friends?

Signed,  Cindy ?Scooter? Libby

(I will expose you too, Ha,Ha)

I call you Scooter because you seem to have a serious memory defecit - a selective one.

I just want to know who the licensed therapist was that worked with your kid for two years.  How can you sit there and say you "don't remember," Scooter?  I believe you are lying, not forgetting.  Prove me wrong, Scootie.

Now, just in case you had selective memory again, Deb just documented your earlier posts on this subject which ahppen to be directly contraindicative of what you are now posting.  Can you explain which set of posts is the lie and which one is the truth?  Or did you "forget" that, too?

Just waiting for an answer, not more crying.  You can cry and stamp your feet and wail about how unfairly people treat you, too, just answer the questions while you're at it.

Name the allegedly licensed therapist.

Tell me which set of posts on this topic are your true ones and which are the lies.  Can't have it both ways, Scootie.

Still waiting for those answers, Scootie.  I'll check in tomorrow to see what you've come up with.  Maybe you can just ask your daughter for her therapist's name - and don't try to tell me she forgot, too.  I mean, you're so close, and you talk so much, just ask her.  It shouldn't be a problem.

[RobertBruce]

Here is what we know:

Guest wrote:
?the licensing issue will go on but likei said places, all treatment centers use so unlicensed staff. Oh by the way i called my friend at ASR and was told they have 4 licensed staff 2 licensed social workers, 1 licensed drug addictions counselor and 1 licensed mental health counselor. they have 3 or 4 counselors waiting for the next test. ....."

I think it is clear they have licensed employees, at least to me.

Cindy they could have licensed janitors, it makes no difference when it comes to therapy. You yourself stand by the claim that they only have one licensed mental health counselor. That means that legally he/she is the only one can practice therapy. So then with the estimate of kids currently being 200 and there only being 168 hours in the week how is this done?

By your own numbers youve proven that therapy is being given by unlicensed therapist during group therapy. No way around it.

[TheWho]

Still waiting for those answers, Scootie

Check previous posts, already covered that one.  There has been a lot of writing back and forth so it was probably easy to miss.  If you don?t find it I will give you a link...let me know.

[Nihilanthic]

OH SHIT THIS THREAD CAUGHT THE TATER.

[TheWho]

Just to recap:

There were some comments that ASR didn?t have licensed Counselors and Therapists.  Deborah went off and documented what she could and has a list of names from the school in the Aspen Forum.  This shows the name of the licensed therapist (and yes his license is up to date!!) which puts that question to rest.  Next we established that their staff is licensed and as of today ASR looks like this:

they have 4 licensed staff 2 licensed social workers, 1 licensed drug addictions counselor and 1 licensed mental health counselor. they have 3 or 4 counselors waiting for the next test.

 The remaining question is this sufficient?  And I think so far people think so.  It appears they have enough oversight?.
I would like to break here to update the numbers we are tracking

[RobertBruce]

This shows the name of the licensed therapist (and yes his license is up to date!!) which puts that question to rest

Not really, we only know that he claims to be licensed. No outside source has verified it.

Next we established that their staff is licensed and as of today ASR looks like this:

they have 4 licensed staff 2 licensed social workers, 1 licensed drug addictions counselor and 1 licensed mental health counselor. they have 3 or 4 counselors waiting for the next test

Agreed. They have one licensed mental health professional who provides individual therapy for 200 kids per week......somehow.

The remaining question is this sufficient?

No the remaining question is is this legal? Whether or not something is sufficent seems to be typical of you and the industry. "Can we get away with this?"

The answer to both questions is no.

And I think so far people think so

So far parents of kids still locked up at ASR either dont know or dont care. Or like you were easily brainwashed. No one who cares about their kid would be okay with this scenario, espically when you throw in the amount of money these people are spending.

It appears they have enough oversight?.

This according to you. The state may not agree, we'll have to find out.

I would like to break here to update the numbers we are tracking

Why? None of your nonsense has changed and no one has asked to see it again.

[RobertBruce]

Another interesting piece of information:

http://www.swiftriver.com/staff.htm

Listed among the bullets describing the "team model"

There mentioned we find listed "group counseling 3x's/week"

So it seems Cindy that your beloved ASR disagrees with you, it isnt some "group meeting" as you would have people believe to "see how we are doing" but rather group counseling, otherwise known as group therapy.

You were wrong, we were right.

Group therapy is being facilitated by unlicensed counselors.

[TheWho]

Deborah wrote:

You are off the mark here. This site exists to look at the "grey areas". If programs believe it is ethical to staff group "therapy" with unlicensed staff, then they need to disclose this to parents who are paying $6000/month and are under the assumption that their kid is being "treated" by licensed professionals. Do you have a problem with accountability. My god, that is the program mantra. Put the cards on the table and we'll see how they stack up.

Where did you hear that parents are under this impression that all the people are licensed?

From you, and the ASR staff who posted last year:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ht=#193924
All 10 clinicians that we have are master's level and most are working on licensure. All 20 resident staff are bachelor's level and do not provide therapy- they provide positve adult role modeling and work closely with the clinicians and academic advisors.

On Accreditation and Licenses:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ht=#193964

On Diplomas and licensing "not" required to practice counseling
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ht=#194342

Thanks Deborah, I wish I could find information that quickly!!  What I meant by my question was I am not sure every parent believes that all the staff are licensed.  I didn?t assume everyone had a license when I my daughter attended.  I knew my Daughters therapist was licensed and that some of the counselors were licensed, but not everyone.  

If you were going into a hospital for an operation I think you could expect the surgeon to be licensed but many of the other people could be in training and working towards their license.  The person who sews you up may be a student with no degree yet!  Not sure of all the rules but they would be my expectations.

[RobertBruce]

Thanks Deborah, I wish I could find information that quickly!!

Sorry, you arent smart enough.

What I meant by my question was I am not sure every parent believes that all the staff are licensed.

Ohhhhh, but thats not what you said at all, and now youre backpeddeling to try and save face. Too late though.

I didn?t assume everyone had a license when I my daughter attended. I knew my Daughters therapist was licensed and that some of the counselors were licensed, but not everyone.

Thats because you dont give a shit about your daughter. You subjected her to treatment from an unlicensed, unsupervised trainee.

If you were going into a hospital for an operation I think you could expect the surgeon to be licensed but many of the other people could be in training and working towards their license. The person who sews you up may be a student with no degree yet!

Yes professor but a med student cannot practice medicine until he is an actual doctor, and even after that his time spent in residency is heavily supervised, not this "turn em loose and see what happens" attitude that you and ASR seem to share.

[TheWho]

Well we talked it over and will have to pull the data point for 2003-2004 because we cannot verify the name, they are saying Julian academy?, but we cant get verification.  If anyone has any info please PM me or post it here.  We dont want to discount it because of lack of information.  

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 [/u]

Outside a TBS: -----There where 1,537 Homicides  and 1,415 suicides (NCES)& (CDC)
Inside a TBS --------There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001  

Outside a TBS: -----There where 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides (NCES)& (CDC)
Inside a TBS --------There where 0 Homicides and 1 suicide.  (Data set still open)*
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002  

Outside a TBS: -----There where 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides (NCES)& (CDC)
Inside a TBS --------There where 0 Homicides and 0 suicides.  ( Data set still open)*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003  

Outside a TBS: -----There where 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides  (NCES)& (CDC)
Inside a TBS --------There where 0 Homicides and 0 suicides.  ( Data set still open)*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004  

Outside a TBS: -----There where 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides (NCES)& (CDC)
Inside a TBS --------There where 0 Homicides and 1 suicides.  ( Data set still open, 72 sources reviewed, mostly emails and news articles)*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2004 thru June 2005  

The data from the NCES is incomplete at this time.  They are reporting an increase in suicide rates (at school) of over 100% from the previous year, but this is still in line with normal fluctuations from year to year and is below the 2002-2003 year levels.

Outside a TBS:   Data not posted as of 2/20/2007
 Inside a TBS    Data not posted as of 2/20/2007

Red -- Data Point is has not yet been verified
TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
NCES ? National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles, posts and PM?s

[RobertBruce]

Who is "we" again Cindy? You talked it over with the voices in your head? See if any of you can muster up the strength to answer these.



1. What points specifically do you believe you've "proven us wrong" on?

2. What is your definition of "group therapy"?

3. How do you believe kids should prove their claims of abuse?

4. What specifically have you done to help the kids locked up in these places?

5. Why did you lie claiming ignorace concerning the fact that TBS's lie to state regulators?

6. Why do these places avoid regulation if as you claim they have the kids best interest at heart?

7. What TBS's are bad in your opinion and why?

8. Why dont the people you claim to work with defend you?

9. Why havent the people mentioned in your PM's shown up?

10. Should therapy be given by unlicensed people?

11. Do you believe yourself to have high level of credibility here on fornits?

12. Are you an "axe grinder" with an agenda here?

13.How does you shipping your daughter off to a kiddie prison qualify you to commentate on the entire industry and determine what information parents need and what they dont need?

14. Since we've established that many times the murders that occur in the PTS are swept under the rug or lied about, how can you determine they should not count as homicides?

15. What are the proper procedures for killing a child?

16. Why did you change your mind regarding your feelings on regulation?

17. Why do you believe the person feeding the 300+lbs counselor should be held respondsible for the kids death at Eckerd, when the counselor not only chose to over eat, but to sit on the boy as well?

18. How many program owners do you personally know?

19. How does the fact that you claimed no evidence existed of kids being abused at ASR not translate in your mind to you dismissing their claims?

20. Since you did not experience the school for yourself how can you claim it to be positive?

[Deborah]

DJ wrote:

I just want to know who the licensed therapist was that worked with your kid for two years.

No

Finally a straight and honest response. Why all the rigamaroll about not remembering?

[RobertBruce]

Because there was a different personality in charge at the time. He cant be expected to keep track of what all the many many people in his head are up to. Hence why some remember things and others dont.

It all depends on which monkey is steering the U.S.S. Cindy.