Author Topic: The Who  (Read 861904 times)

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Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #1170 on: January 27, 2007, 09:31:23 PM »
Quote
Is this your opinion or do you have numbers. I have met more people who have had a positive experience with TBS?s

I could emply the same tactic you do and tell you I see no reason to back up my claim and encourage you to do it, however proving you wrong is equally as fun.

The ratio of people that are pro program on fornits to people who are anti program should prove my point. Let me know if you need more.

Quote
Simple, Because that is what you are hearing. I don?t believe it is the same across the board. I believe there are kids who have a good experience and some who have had a bad experience.


You're confused. My statement was pointing out that because you had a good experience you feel it must be the same across the board. Obviously it isnt or we wouldnt be here.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1171 on: January 27, 2007, 10:15:00 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #1172 on: January 28, 2007, 11:06:09 AM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Six conditions are simultaneously present in a thought reform program: (margaret singer)

    * obtaining substantial control over an individual's time and thought content, typically by gaining control over major elements of the person's social and physical environment,
    * systematically creating a sense of powerlessness in the person,
    * manipulating a system of rewards, punishment. and experiences in such a way as to promote new learning of an ideology or belief system advocated by management,
    * manipulating a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences in such a way as to inhibit observable behavior that reflects the values and routines of life organization the individual displayed prior to contact with the group,
    * maintaining a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure in the organization and
    * maintaining a non-informed state existing in the subject.

ASR does all of these things!



A young boy who has been home schooled enters the local public school system.  Around 10:00 he gets up to go to the boys room.  On the way a hall monitor (this is a person who snitches on his peers and got the position because he has been brainwashed to believe all the rules are important) asks him for a hall pass and he doesn?t understand and is quickly escorted to the principal?s office where he is told he must ask permission to leave his class room and that he will have to report to detention (held against his will) after school, where he will be denied access to his family (isolation), miss his bus ride home and was told he cant bring any of his friends with him, nor can he listen to music.  On the way back to class he stops at his locker and grabs his lunch which he starts to eat in class.  The teacher promptly asks him what he is doing.  He explains that in his family they eat at 11:00am and he asked to stand and the teachers asks the class to explain to him what time we eat here at ?Public High?.  We eat as a group at 11:30 and everyone laughs (Public humiliation).  He finds that he cant speak in class, cant talk to his friends, listen to music, cant get out of his desk or leave the building.  The next day he is denied access to school (denied and education) because he is wearing a brown hooded sweat shirt that his grandmother gave him and is told to ask his parents to come in to meet with the principal before he may return.
The next day , in History class, the teacher calls his name and is asked what he is reading.  The boy responds that he is reading a book on history and holds it up.  The teacher laughs and says you cant get away with that crap here, the asks ?But why??,  the teacher responds, ?That?s not the book that has been assigned for you to read?.  I want you to go home and write a 1,000 word essay on why you shouldn?t choose your own books in class,  which will cause him to loose more family time and incur further isolation?????

This was just his first 2 days?..who do you think will end up conforming to rules and regulations imposed on him against his will?  His reward will be less public humiliation, working his way up to hall monitor, learning to not ask questions and just follow the rules as they are told to you, snitching on your friends will be rewarding in the teachers eyes????.this is a Public School!!!!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1173 on: January 28, 2007, 11:25:39 AM »
Nice try, but seriously and I am not exagerating or bullshitting you here Who. Those who have been in abusive programs, reading your analogy.. its laughable, utterly laughable and uncomparable in so many ways it's not even worth discussing with you... you are THAT far gone from the reality of this topic. Institutional humiliation is different than everyday life embarrassing moments.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #1174 on: January 28, 2007, 11:28:57 AM »
Bob Wrote:
Quote
I could emply the same tactic you do and tell you I see no reason to back up my claim and encourage you to do it, however proving you wrong is equally as fun.

The ratio of people that are pro program on fornits to people who are anti program should prove my point. Let me know if you need more.

There is no tactic, relax no one is attacking, just asking.  As a little advice?. it is always better to take the approach of proving something to be true than trying to prove someone wrong.  The results take on a negative aspect which adds suspect (or spin)to the origin of the data.
I agree that if you were to poll all the people on Fornits you may prove a point,  but remember you need to take into account the source of your data and whether or not the data represents a cross section of everyone?s view.  For example if I were to poll a group of people with the question ?Do you think the teachings of Judaism has added more value to you life than Muslim teachings??.  I would get a totally different response (data set) if I were to poll people in a Sunni neighborhood vs. downtown Jerusalem.

Would any one or both of these represent a true cross section of the rest of the world?

Quote
You're confused. My statement was pointing out that because you had a good experience you feel it must be the same across the board. Obviously it isnt or we wouldnt be here.


I guess you haven?t been paying attention.  I believe that each school is different and should be measured on its own merits.  I don?t take the position that all programs/TBS are the same.
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Offline Karass

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« Reply #1175 on: January 28, 2007, 11:35:04 AM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
ASR has developed a very nice transition program I have heard.


You have heard what? Please describe this transition program. The norm in this for-profit industry is that when the payments stop, the so-called "treatment" stops. What does ASR do to help former students that are no longer paying customers make the transition back to the real world?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves. -- J.B. Priestley

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1176 on: January 28, 2007, 11:39:18 AM »
Quote from: ""70sPunkRebel""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
ASR has developed a very nice transition program I have heard.

You have heard what? Please describe this transition program. The norm in this for-profit industry is that when the payments stop, the so-called "treatment" stops. What does ASR do to help former students that are no longer paying customers make the transition back to the real world?

Who really gives a shit about these minor details? You fuckwads debate endlessly about shit like this and fail to see the MAIN POINT. No, idiots, if you have to ask then you will never know. I'd love to strangle 50% of the morons on this forum. It would do me some good.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #1177 on: January 28, 2007, 11:40:28 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Nice try, but seriously and I am not exagerating or bullshitting you here Who. Those who have been in abusive programs, reading your analogy.. its laughable, utterly laughable and uncomparable in so many ways it's not even worth discussing with you... you are THAT far gone from the reality of this topic. Institutional humiliation is different than everyday life embarrassing moments.


I think you missed the point??..  I was posed with a list of conditions which I was told is present at a TBS and I agreed and stated they are also present in a public school.  I didn?t make a direct relationship across the board, but the points I made do connect the two,  That boy had to conform or feel the wrath of his parents.  Sure some public schools are worse than others and this may not be the norm, but the same applies to TBS some can be pretty bad others may be great but to point out the worst experiences found at a TBS and try to peddle this as the norm is not accurate either.
I understand that kids who were in abusive programs may not understand because they were hurt by one of them.  But lets not throw mud on all programs because of the few.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1178 on: January 28, 2007, 11:42:10 AM »
Quote from: ""FUCK OFF!!!!!!!""
Who really gives a shit about these minor details? You fuckwads debate endlessly about shit like this and fail to see the MAIN POINT. No, idiots, if you have to ask then you will never know. I'd love to strangle 50% of the morons on this forum. It would do me some good.

 ::bangin::  ::bigmouth::  ::argue::  ::both::  :nworthy:  :tup:  :tup:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1179 on: January 28, 2007, 11:42:26 AM »
This thread reminds me of a serious of discussions I watched a friend of mine have, with a very religious colleague of his. They sat everyday over lunch, and discussed the philosophy of various religions, the teachings of Jesus, comparing them to Buddha, Mohammed, etc.

They argued endlessly for weeks, months, eventually at the end of the semester they were never able to resolve their dispute. The religious person's argument basically came down to the fact you cannot prove a negative. If you can't prove there is no God, then it's possible he exists. That is why religion exists. Of course this argument is fallacious, but that doesn't matter to either of them. It's not about the answer or truth, it's about the argument, that's the ultimate point of engagement. Not the resolution.

What struck me though, was the fact the answer was staring them straight in the face the whole time. There is no god, and they are debating mythology. How do I know this? They were so engaged in conversation that final day of the semester, as they walked across the street they were struck by a car and both killed instantly. Where is your God now?

Could of told them that the first day we sat down. Oh well.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1180 on: January 28, 2007, 11:43:53 AM »
Quote
But lets not throw mud on all programs because of the few.


Well that goes both ways there, buddy. You are posting on a forum discussing the industries most abusive programs. Every post you make is generic, alagoristic, and could easily apply to any program here. Pot, stop calling the kettle black.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1181 on: January 28, 2007, 11:45:23 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
This thread reminds me of a serious of discussions I watched a friend of mine have, with a very religious colleague of his. They sat everyday over lunch, and discussed the philosophy of various religions, the teachings of Jesus, comparing them to Buddha, Mohammed, etc.

They argued endlessly for weeks, months, eventually at the end of the semester they were never able to resolve their dispute. The religious person's argument basically came down to the fact you cannot prove a negative. If you can't prove there is no God, then it's possible he exists. That is why religion exists. Of course this argument is fallacious, but that doesn't matter to either of them. It's not about the answer or truth, it's about the argument, that's the ultimate point of engagement. Not the resolution.

What struck me though, was the fact the answer was staring them straight in the face the whole time. There is no god, and they are debating mythology. How do I know this? They were so engaged in conversation that final day of the semester, as they walked across the street they were struck by a car and both killed instantly. Where is your God now?

Could of told them that the first day we sat down. Oh well.

 :evil:  :tup:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #1182 on: January 28, 2007, 11:52:13 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
This thread reminds me of a serious of discussions I watched a friend of mine have, with a very religious colleague of his. They sat everyday over lunch, and discussed the philosophy of various religions, the teachings of Jesus, comparing them to Buddha, Mohammed, etc.

They argued endlessly for weeks, months, eventually at the end of the semester they were never able to resolve their dispute. The religious person's argument basically came down to the fact you cannot prove a negative. If you can't prove there is no God, then it's possible he exists. That is why religion exists. Of course this argument is fallacious, but that doesn't matter to either of them. It's not about the answer or truth, it's about the argument, that's the ultimate point of engagement. Not the resolution.

What struck me though, was the fact the answer was staring them straight in the face the whole time. There is no god, and they are debating mythology. How do I know this? They were so engaged in conversation that final day of the semester, as they walked across the street they were struck by a car and both killed instantly. Where is your God now?

Could of told them that the first day we sat down. Oh well.


Hey I like that,  Good point!!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1183 on: January 28, 2007, 12:09:19 PM »
Quote
But lets not throw mud on all programs because of the few.


Have you ever given thought that your experience might be the minority, and the experiences of fornits in the majority. Notice, there is no forum out there discussing the positive effects of programs. So, I could say to you, lets not make light of all programs because of the few families who have successful experiences. My argument is just as legitimate as yours, and I believe it just as much as you believe yours.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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« Reply #1184 on: January 28, 2007, 12:17:15 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Six conditions are simultaneously present in a thought reform program: (margaret singer)

    * obtaining substantial control over an individual's time and thought content, typically by gaining control over major elements of the person's social and physical environment,
    * systematically creating a sense of powerlessness in the person,
    * manipulating a system of rewards, punishment. and experiences in such a way as to promote new learning of an ideology or belief system advocated by management,
    * manipulating a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences in such a way as to inhibit observable behavior that reflects the values and routines of life organization the individual displayed prior to contact with the group,
    * maintaining a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure in the organization and
    * maintaining a non-informed state existing in the subject.

ASR does all of these things!


A young boy who has been home schooled enters the local public school system.  Around 10:00 he gets up to go to the boys room.  On the way a hall monitor (this is a person who snitches on his peers and got the position because he has been brainwashed to believe all the rules are important) asks him for a hall pass and he doesn?t understand and is quickly escorted to the principal?s office where he is told he must ask permission to leave his class room and that he will have to report to detention (held against his will) after school, where he will be denied access to his family (isolation), miss his bus ride home and was told he cant bring any of his friends with him, nor can he listen to music.  On the way back to class he stops at his locker and grabs his lunch which he starts to eat in class.  The teacher promptly asks him what he is doing.  He explains that in his family they eat at 11:00am and he asked to stand and the teachers asks the class to explain to him what time we eat here at ?Public High?.  We eat as a group at 11:30 and everyone laughs (Public humiliation).  He finds that he cant speak in class, cant talk to his friends, listen to music, cant get out of his desk or leave the building.  The next day he is denied access to school (denied and education) because he is wearing a brown hooded sweat shirt that his grandmother gave him and is told to ask his parents to come in to meet with the principal before he may return.
The next day , in History class, the teacher calls his name and is asked what he is reading.  The boy responds that he is reading a book on history and holds it up.  The teacher laughs and says you cant get away with that crap here, the asks ?But why??,  the teacher responds, ?That?s not the book that has been assigned for you to read?.  I want you to go home and write a 1,000 word essay on why you shouldn?t choose your own books in class,  which will cause him to loose more family time and incur further isolation?????

This was just his first 2 days?..who do you think will end up conforming to rules and regulations imposed on him against his will?  His reward will be less public humiliation, working his way up to hall monitor, learning to not ask questions and just follow the rules as they are told to you, snitching on your friends will be rewarding in the teachers eyes????.this is a Public School!!!!



Well, that's a pretty long winded answer designed, I suspect, to throw the attention off of the real questions that were put to you.  The more you "extoll the virtues" of ASR, the more you put up red flags for us.  The kinds of isolation, system of punishment/reward, the ostrization (sp?) of family members that don't meet up to ASR's standards and are then banned from all forms of communication with the student, the ostrization of other friends they may have made inside ASR.(bans)...............is ALL DANGEROUS.......to anyone, let alone kids who are in their most formative, developmental and susceptible years.  It is crucial that they have not only family support, (I know you have been bushwhacked into believing that there is "family involvement",  but you're wrong.)  ASR and even most likely the grads are still afraid or aprehensive at the least to talk about it in its entirety.  You also seem to justify what we, and other professionals say about this isolative, confrontative "therapy" as something that's needed.  You're wrong again.  

You seem to have somewhat of a grasp of what goes on there (granted, maybe not ALL of the abusive crap) and you seem to be completely fine with it.  :o   I hope someday when your daughter realizes what was done to her she'll have more forgiveness for you than you've had for her.

Remember the story I told you about my dad.  For the first few years after I got out he was thrilled with me.  I told him how much I hated being there, but knew it was the best decision for me.  Once I woke up out of the fog I ended all communication with him.  It's now taken me over 6 years to even try to build some kind of relationship with him....and so far it's superficial at best.  He was fine with met telling thim that I didn't blame him, he was duped just like the rest, but once he had been indoctrinated, I was lost to him.  After I began refecting the Straight teachings, he kicked me out of his home becaue I got pregnant (by another grad).   So there I was, pregnant, dad pulling the "tough love' crap and saying that I couldn't live with him. He then immediately got on the phone with my mom and told her not to take me in.  (Mom was/is so weak emotionally that she just did whatever he told her, truly believing she was doing the right thing.)  I hold no animosity towards my mom.  She tried to speak up but was confronted to the point of dissolving into tears in a parent rap.  She doesn't come well with that sort of shit, so she just crumbled and gave in)  I'm hoping for more with my dad, but don't expect it.  As I said, he's a lot like you.
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