The Who

[TheWho]

Okay I?ll bite:

Who you seem to want others to accept your experience being a positive one as the norm.

I don?t know if it is the norm or not, I just find it amazing that many here on fornits feel not one person has ever benefited from a TBS ever.  I am saying I know of a few people who did well in one of these TBS and based on this I am sure there are others that did well also.  I just feel statistically this must be true.   I believe there are kids who did well and kids who didn?t, you and many others are taking the hardened position of denial that no one ever benefited.



 

If it was things like fornits wouldn't exist.

So you are saying the mere existence of fornits makes your position true?

You also claim that your daughter attending ASR was a "family experience" Nihil is correct, that's bullshit. It's something programs tell parents and something parents tell themselves to make themselves feel better.

It doesn?t appear that you or Niles ever had a tragedy in your family.  If a family member has cancer the whole family suffers, it is a family problem, everyone needs to be involved.  I think the mentality (and I hear it here on fornits more often) that the child needs to get shipped off to get fixed is more bs than what I claim.

 

You also claim to add a differing perspective for parents to take into consideration, and without that perspective parents would simply move on and not pay attention to us at all. This is simply not the case and it only stems from your own self inflated view of yourself  

This has been really big for me and I am amazed that you don?t see it.  Lets say you enter a discussion forum on taxation and every thread you read is ? pro tax?, everyone is saying ?Taxes are good,  they grow the economy? and thread after thread you don?t see one person who is against taxation, finally you find one guy who says taxes are too high, he starts to tell his views and they rip him apart until he finally leaves.  The person cruising the site will quickly realize that balanced discussion isn?t wanted.  It is a dumping ground for people to express their opinion knowing everyone will agree with them and they can pat each other on the back.
Can you point to many balanced discussions or people who have been here on fornits for awhile who support TBS?s whos opinions are accepted or respected.  I haven?t seen anyone yet, although I don?t read all the thread here so I cant say for sure.
Take the top 100 posters here on Fornits, how many are pro TBS,Wilderness?

Now if you actually backed up some of your claims about TBS's than perhaps but until you do as I said before you're simply spewing off propoganda. Nothing more.

I think I have been very clear on where my information on TBS?s comes from:
A) My Daughter attending
B) Other parents and their children who have attended
C) what I have read here and learned elsewhere from reading.


 

You also claim that the basis for your advocating ASR is that your daughter was a success. My question to then is this: Would your daughter say the same thing? You stated eariler that having to do it all over again you would in a heart beat. Would your daughter go through it again in a heart beat?

I never asked her if she would go thru it again, so I honestly don?t know.  I know if someone asked me if I would ever want to go thru highschool again I would say no way.

Who I can promise you that if you asked my parents they would claim HLA saved my life and that without it I'd be deadorinjail. The reality of the situation is that HLA scarred me for life and I would have been a great deal better off had I never even heard of the place. Sometimes parents delude themselves into thinking they did the right thing by sending their kid to these places because its much easier than accepting the truth, they sent their kids off to be abused.

I am sorry to hear that and you may be right.  These places are not for everyone and some places are not good period.  I really don?t think parents delude themselves although I know most of you think I am delusional myself.  I think parents , like kids, come in all forms and each situation is different.

I'm also still confused on why you demand others back up their claims, yet you refuse to do the same. If you did you'd probably find people being much more open to having a real discourse with you. At least I would.

I typically don?t demand others to back up their claims without producing them myself.  If I say; ? 6 months ago fornits was a lot harsher to parents then they are now, they seem to have eased a bit?  and someone says that?s BS prove it!!
How much work would that be?  Its obviously just the guys gut feel from being involved and reading the posts.  It would take months of looking at posts to come up with a reliable number.  Some things are assumed to be opinions unlees you start using hard numbers.  If the same guy said ?6 months ago 700 posters abused new parents coming onto fornits? and now there are only 500?  I would question where the numbers came from and probably ask, yes.

As it stands however you make claim after claim backing up nothing and eventually reach a point where as you say "you ignore post from specific users" namely me in this case. You can justify it however you like but the truth of the matter is that you ignore my post because I hold you accountable.

My claims are my own opinions.  I suggested that you ignore my posts if they were that objectionable to you.

 

I'd like to see you back up your statement that I claimed the best way to handle teen issues was to ignore them. Either back it up or acknowledge you were wrong. Do that simple thing and I'll let the rest go.

Actually I don?t think I said that.  I believe it was ?My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble? not you specifically.  

I didn?t mention a specific number of people or names of people either.  There used to be (6 months ago , to my recollection) many responses to questions to the effect,  leave the kid alone and see what happens, let them get thru it on their own etc.  which to me is to doing nothing.  We had a discussion once where we were talking about a hypothetical kid who had HIV and left his needles on the floor in the hallway where his 2 year old sister was playing and nothing the parents did could stop this, and there were many in that discussion who thought removal of this kid from the house was not warranted and would have been abusive!!

[Deborah]

This has been really big for me and I am amazed that you don?t see it.  Lets say you enter a discussion forum on taxation and every thread you read is ? pro tax?, everyone is saying ?Taxes are good,  they grow the economy? and thread after thread you don?t see one person who is against taxation, finally you find one guy who says taxes are too high, he starts to tell his views and they rip him apart until he finally leaves.  The person cruising the site will quickly realize that balanced discussion isn?t wanted.  It is a dumping ground for people to express their opinion knowing everyone will agree with them and they can pat each other on the back.

What you just described is ST. Your analogy is not appropriate for Fornits.  This is first-and-foremost a survivor site. Not a NPOV discussion on Taxation. But, then you know that. And you also know that when a real parent, not some troll, comes along there is dialogue. But, oh my god.... the occassional slur insults their sensibilities and because they can't control everyone on the forum with THEIR needs, they're out of here. Guess what, that's their choice. And I doubt Fornits will ever change so they feel comfortable. They'd have no one else to talk to, cause everyone else would leave.

Can you point to many balanced discussions or people who have been here on fornits for awhile who support TBS?s whos opinions are accepted or respected.

Are you implying that survivors sh0uld accept and respect the opinions of program apoplogists? There are actually a few, Buzzkill comes to mind. But then, she's not here hawking programs and isn't a shrinking violet.

Take the top 100 posters here on Fornits, how many are pro TBS,Wilderness?

Again, what the hell are you implying? What IS your point? You do know which forum you're on, don't you? So you'd have Fornits become a 'balanced' site where 'softer', 'better' programs can be peddled? Jesus Christ Who, go start your own forum.

My claims are my own opinions.  I suggested that you ignore my posts if they were that objectionable to you.

Just as you sh0uld avoid Fornits if it's so objectionable to you.

And, what do you mean that wasn't your post? Has your name on it and no one else can post with it. So out with it, what the hell are you implying by denying it's your's?

[RobertBruce]

You made an effort and remained respectful so I'll give you credit for that.

I don?t know if it is the norm or not, I just find it amazing that many here on fornits feel not one person has ever benefited from a TBS ever. I am saying I know of a few people who did well in one of these TBS and based on this I am sure there are others that did well also. I just feel statistically this must be true. I believe there are kids who did well and kids who didn?t, you and many others are taking the hardened position of denial that no one ever benefited.

I don't think that's accurate at all. I personally would never claim that no one has ever benefited from a TBS. In fact I've made many statements to the contrary. What I would, and what I think many posters on here would say is that the majority of students did not benefit from their time there. Can you accept this?

So you are saying the mere existence of fornits makes your position true?

Fornits specifically no, however the drive behind fornits and other efforts to get some of these places shut down and or regulated. If things were humming along as many industry insiders would have you believe the movement would not exist. There would be many more satisifed customers so to speak.

It doesn?t appear that you or Niles ever had a tragedy in your family. If a family member has cancer the whole family suffers, it is a family problem, everyone needs to be involved. I think the mentality (and I hear it here on fornits more often) that the child needs to get shipped off to get fixed is more bs than what I claim.

I have actually so I do know where you are coming from. Allow me to use your own analogy to explain where you're off on this. Let's say your father was dying of cancer, this is something that affects you, your children, your wife, your mother, your siblings all in a similar way. It is not however the same sort of suffering your father is going through. You are not experiecing the physical pain and the realization of impending death that he is dealing with. Same thing with parents sending kids off to TBS's. Perhaps it is a difficult and painfull decision, but it does not compare to what the child is going through. Not even close.

This has been really big for me and I am amazed that you don?t see it. Lets say you enter a discussion forum on taxation and every thread you read is ? pro tax?, everyone is saying ?Taxes are good, they grow the economy? and thread after thread you don?t see one person who is against taxation, finally you find one guy who says taxes are too high, he starts to tell his views and they rip him apart until he finally leaves. The person cruising the site will quickly realize that balanced discussion isn?t wanted. It is a dumping ground for people to express their opinion knowing everyone will agree with them and they can pat each other on the back.
Can you point to many balanced discussions or people who have been here on fornits for awhile who support TBS?s whos opinions are accepted or respected. I haven?t seen anyone yet, although I don?t read all the thread here so I cant say for sure.
Take the top 100 posters here on Fornits, how many are pro TBS,Wilderness?

Let's flip that coin over for a second. Have you ever been to the hla board? If you like I can provide the link. There you will not find a single negative statement against HLA. Why? Because it's not allowed, the same as it was not allowed when we were incarcerated.This is an arena dedicated to exposing the truth about these places. The truth of the matter is that many of them are abusive. It isnt about reinforncing our own position, its about telling the truth. Differing view points are allowed and some have come on here and not as you've said, been torn apart. That being said perhaps the reason posters like you and Karen were attacked is due to your approach.

I think I have been very clear on where my information on TBS?s comes from:
A) My Daughter attending
B) Other parents and their children who have attended
C) what I have read here and learned elsewhere from reading.

Fine, a legitimate source for statements like "I noticed the kids in my daughters group really improving." Not the sort of blanket statements you make about the industry "improving" or "one kid in 30 years has killed himself in the TBS's." Or "TBS's are safer than public schools". Your experience doesn't give you that information and you have shown yourself to be unwilling to research the facts about any of it.

I never asked her if she would go thru it again, so I honestly don?t know. I know if someone asked me if I would ever want to go thru highschool again I would say no way.  

Perhaps you should ask her. Also is the reason you wouldnt want to go through highschool again because you were abused there?

I typically don?t demand others to back up their claims without producing them myself. If I say; ? 6 months ago fornits was a lot harsher to parents then they are now, they seem to have eased a bit? and someone says that?s BS prove it!!
How much work would that be? Its obviously just the guys gut feel from being involved and reading the posts. It would take months of looking at posts to come up with a reliable number. Some things are assumed to be opinions unlees you start using hard numbers. If the same guy said ?6 months ago 700 posters abused new parents coming onto fornits? and now there are only 500? I would question where the numbers came from and probably ask, yes.  

Okay, think back to the conversation you had with Dysfunction Deborah and I regarding the lack of a nurse at HLA. You repeatedly insisted that we had not establshed that there was a problem. We provided you with state regs regarding who can dispense meds proving that HLA had fallen below standards, we provided the staff listing showing that no one was qualified at the school to practice medicine or dispense meds, we provided comparisons between public schools and pharmacy's. We told you how the nurse they had on staff was fired and our inside sources had already informed us there was no plan to hire a replacement any time soon. After all of that you insisted that we had "proven" nothing, you even went so far as to claim that we had no inside information and HLA would be on top of any supposed leaks. Dysfunction showed you emails he had received from staffers detailing what a train wreck it was, yet you still you claimed it was fake. All the while demanding proof of our claims. You also found reason to attribute your claims to other people and then insist they back them up. Recall your conversation with Dysfunction regarding the amount of signatures? Now the shoe is on the other foot and I'm holding you to the same standards yet you don't see the need to provide evidence to support your claims. Why?

My claims are my own opinions. I suggested that you ignore my posts if they were that objectionable to you.

I don't find your opinions objectionable, your entitled to believe or feel whatever you want and I'll never say boo about it to you or anyone else. It's when you start showcasing your opinions as facts and handing out misinformation that the problem arises.

Actually I don?t think I said that. I believe it was ?My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble? not you specifically.

Actually you did.  

Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing?Posted: 09 Jan 2007 01:52    ..

You lumped me into this category you claim is the majority of posters with nothing to back it up and I've been bringing it to your attention for the past week. Now that that's been establshed I'd like for you to either provide a statement I have made which suggest that I felt the best way to handle teen issues is to do nothing, or acknowledge that you made a mistake. Once either is done I'll not bring it up again.

I didn?t mention a specific number of people or names of people either. There used to be (6 months ago , to my recollection) many responses to questions to the effect, leave the kid alone and see what happens, let them get thru it on their own etc. which to me is to doing nothing. We had a discussion once where we were talking about a hypothetical kid who had HIV and left his needles on the floor in the hallway where his 2 year old sister was playing and nothing the parents did could stop this, and there were many in that discussion who thought removal of this kid from the house was not warranted and would have been abusive!!

Okay fine, and if you had said "a number of posters seem to feel the best way to handle these issues is to do nothing" then I probably never would have brought it up, but you said majority. I'm looking for a basis of this claim.

[Anne Bonney]

I don?t know if it is the norm or not, I just find it amazing that many here on fornits feel not one person has ever benefited from a TBS ever. I am saying I know of a few people who did well in one of these TBS and based on this I am sure there are others that did well also. I just feel statistically this must be true. I believe there are kids who did well and kids who didn?t, you and many others are taking the hardened position of denial that no one ever benefited

Back to the rape analogy.  I ended up benefitting in some ways from, but that doesn't mean it was therapeutic adn doesn't negate the damage done in the process.

I never asked her if she would go thru it again, so I honestly don?t know.

I would think, after all that you've read and discussed here...that you'd be just the eentsiest bit curious about questions like that.

 

I know if someone asked me if I would ever want to go thru highschool again I would say no way.

That's completely different and you know it.

I am sorry to hear that and you may be right.  These places are not for everyone and some places are not good period.  I really don?t think parents delude themselves although I know most of you think I am delusional myself.  I think parents , like kids, come in all forms and each situation is different.

What you're saying about ASR, our parents said about Straight and the rest.  Does that not make you go back and rethink what you're saying?  Does that not make you want to go and check with your daughter about some of these issues?  Ask her to read this site and see if it sounds familiar to her.  http://www.ex-cult.org/

There used to be (6 months ago , to my recollection) many responses to questions to the effect,  leave the kid alone and see what happens, let them get thru it on their own etc.  which to me is to doing nothing.

Which I still advocate for the reasons I stated before.  That's what worked for my friends who were all "worse off" than I was adn that's what worked for my daughter who was "worse off" than I was before Straight.

 

We had a discussion once where we were talking about a hypothetical kid who had HIV and left his needles on the floor in the hallway where his 2 year old sister was playing and nothing the parents did could stop this, and there were many in that discussion who thought removal of this kid from the house was not warranted and would have been abusive!!

Point me to that thread.  I don't remember anything remotely like that.

[Anne Bonney]

I always like to make the point that anyone who was in Straight was physically abused just by being there, but I know what you're saying; there are degrees of abuse, of course. But we had to sit up straight for 12 hours a day, or else... That fits the description of physical abuse.

Yeah, I see your point.  I just saw so many people really get brutalized that I would feel funny even giving the appearance that I was saying what I went through was on the same level as what they did.  I had said once that I was envious of "misbehavors" and that seemed to rub some people the wrong way.  Maybe I phrased it wrong.  I was envious of them having the guts to do it.  I felt like I was a pussy.  I gave in and gave up.  Like I was a windup doll or something.  Wind me up, point me in the direction you think I should go adn I'll go.  I didn't fight adn I wish I had.  Maybe I wouldn't have felt so helpless then and after. If I had, even only once, stood up for myself and said "no, this is fucking wrong....kiss my ass".  

Oh well.  At least I get to do that now to Virgil's face and there ain't shit he can do about it.  Gonna take the boat by there soon.  Anchor right off his dock, crank up the stereo and tell him what a fuckwad I think he is. ::both::  ::fuckoff::  ::both::  ::fuckoff::  ::fuckoff::  ::cheers::  :smokin:

[ZenAgent]

Hey, Whoster...this is something that doesn't come often on this forum, it's community based treatment (MST).  I think most people could wrap their heads around this a lot easier than shipping their kids off to unknown goon squads to suffer all manner of nasty trauma because daddy was a lamer.  Would have saved you two years of estrangement.  My friend at A START is a big proponent of MST.

From:
HANDBOOK OF PREVENTIVE
INTERVENTIONS FOR ADULTS
Edited by
Catherine N. Dulmus
Lisa A. Rapp-Paglicci



INDICATED PREVENTIVE INTERVENTIONS
FOR PARENTING
This section summarizes indicated interventions that have been successful in
promoting positive family interactions and improving parenting skills. Three
parenting programs are included: Multisystemic Therapy (Henggeler, Schoenwald,
Borduin, Rowland, & Cunningham, 1998), the Nurturing Parenting Program
(Bavolek, 2002), and Project 12 Ways (Gershater-Molko & Lutzker,
1999; Gershater-Molko, Lutzker, & Wesch, 2002; Lutzker, Bigelow, Doctor, &
Kessler, 1998).
Multisystemic Therapy
Category: Indicated.
Program type: Parent training, parent education, and parent support.
Target population: Families with children 12 to 17 years with serious antisocial
problems.
Cultural adaptation: Families in urban areas. Materials available in Norwegian.
Program summary: Multisystemic Therapy (MST) is a time-limited homeand
family-centered program created for youth in difficulty with the juvenile
justice system. Although this intervention addresses parenting, it essentially
intervenes in school, peer, and community systems to effect change. This intervention
is designed to impact all systems that influence a child?s externalizing
behaviors using methods that promote positive social behavior and
decrease antisocial behavior. MST targets parental skills to improve their effectiveness
by identifying strengths and developing support systems for parents.
Parents collaborate with the therapist to use strategies such as setting
rules and curfew and providing supervision to reduce child noncompliance
utilizing cognitive and behavioral strategies for changes and promoting prosocial
peer relationships for behavior maintenance (Brunk, Henggeler, & Whelan,
1987). Disengagement from harmful peers, stronger attachment to family
and school, increased social competence, and improved family monitoring are
encouraged simultaneously (Brunk, 2000). MST assumes that conduct problems
are complex and addresses the stressing systems by using techniques of
reframing, coaching, marital therapy, advocacy, and parent education (Brunk
et al., 1987; Henggeler, Melton, Brondino, Scherer, & Hanley, 1997).
Evidence for the ef fects of treatment: MST has been proven efficacious for:
?Reducing adolescent substance use.
?Decreasing adolescent psychiatric symptoms.
?Reducing long-term rearrest rates by 25% to 70%.
?Reducing long-term out-of-home placement by 47% to 64%.
?Improving family relations and functioning.
?Increasing mainstream school attendance.
?Increasing parental monitoring (Alexander, Robbins, & Sexton, 2000;
Brunk, 2000; Henggeler et al., 1997, 1998).
Eight randomized clinical trials have proven that MST enhances parenting
skills and improves the familial environment. In a study with random assignment
comparing MST group-based parent training with traditional parent
training, MST achieved better outcomes in parental ability to control children?s
problem behaviors, increased parental positive responses to children,
and improved child compliance (Brunk et al., 1987). However, parent training
surpassed MST in the improvement of social problems, likely due to the group
context of parent training. Both interventions show significant reductions in
child externalizing behaviors, parenting stress, and family functioning (Brunk
et al., 1987).

[TheWho]

What you just described is ST. Your analogy is not appropriate for Fornits. This is first-and-foremost a survivor site. Not a NPOV discussion on Taxation. But, then you know that. And you also know that when a real parent, not some troll, comes along there is dialogue. But, oh my god.... the occassional slur insults their sensibilities and because they can't control everyone on the forum with THEIR needs, they're out of here. Guess what, that's their choice. And I doubt Fornits will ever change so they feel comfortable. They'd have no one else to talk to, cause everyone else would leave.

So you describe this as a survivor site.  I saw it more as a melting pot and also a  place where parents could come get information on Wilderness and TBS programs and have discussions with  people who have had experience with them and gain some insight and help on dealing with their child.  
Deborah, you and and I both know that the parents are not the only ones who get offended.  If a parent comes on here and says ?So whats the big deal, a few weeks in the woods, fresh air, followed up with a nice cushy TBS with gormet food, clean sheets and an education.  The little snot better not complain at $6,000/ month, life doesn?t get much better than, why when I was a kid I would have gotten slapped in the head no free lunch?s???.?  The offensiveness meter (if that?s even a word) would go off the charts???

Are you implying that survivors sh0uld accept and respect the opinions of program apoplogists? There are actually a few, Buzzkill comes to mind. But then, she's not here hawking programs and isn't a shrinking violet.

I think they should.
Lets turn it around, should program apologists accept and respect the opinions of all the survivors?  I think they should also, it is their opinion, it is what they experienced.  If a survivor says they had an abusive time, they had an abusive time, its how they feel, only the person being abused knows how it feelsl!!  If a survivor says they were helped by the TBS and it turned their life around then yes we should except that and embrace their feelings and not try to diminish it in any way.
A debate or discussion sometimes consists of people with opposing views.  I am not saying that kids that had a bad experience understand or initially embrace a new parent that comes here or even understand other kids who did well.  But there shouldn?t be this good guy/ Bad Guy mentality.

Just as you sh0uld avoid Fornits if it's so objectionable to you.

I am not offended, just trying to make it a better place by adding value and balance.

And, what do you mean that wasn't your post? Has your name on it and no one else can post with it. So out with it, what the hell are you implying by denying it's your's?

The post you mentioned was made before I had a sign-in name, it could have been anyone.  I posted at fornits as ?Anon? for over a year and at one point ( last year) some posters became insistent that I was someone who I wasn?t??.to make a long story short?. I was asked and I agreed to have all my posts strung together and initially I was given the name ?Little cats?  I think and it turned out someone had that name because the posts were mixed.  The query was redone and I was given the name Thewho (as I recall) and just decided to keep it because I like the group.  Maybe I picked it myself but I am pretty sure it was assigned to me.  This post was made before I had a ?sign in? name and was added in error; it is someone else?s post, I would never say anything like that, Deborah.

[Deborah]

Let's flip that coin over for a second. Have you ever been to the hla board? If you like I can provide the link. There you will not find a single negative statement against HLA. Why? Because it's not allowed, the same as it was not allowed when we were incarcerated.

Not only are they censored, they can't share contact information. An adult survivor said recently, I feel like I'm in 4th grade with all these rules.
Here's the link. Have fun. One of the most boring forums you'll ever read.
http://www.discusshla.com/

[TheWho]

Okay Robertbruce

Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing?Posted: 09 Jan 2007 01:52 ..

Lets change this to:
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago I don?t think you would have agreed the car needed fixing.

Okay fine, and if you had said "a number of posters seem to feel the best way to handle these issues is to do nothing" then I probably never would have brought it up, but you said majority. I'm looking for a basis of this claim.

Okay lets change that to ?a number of posters seem to feel the best way to handle these issues is to do nothing",  The use of the word majority implies a survey was done or something was measured, I?ll agree to that.

[ZenAgent]

Who...I'm not suggesting doing nothing.  Doing nothing is probably what started your problems, as you've admitted.  It's what you did that I question, Mr.Kneejerk Reaction.

[TheWho]

Let's flip that coin over for a second. Have you ever been to the hla board? If you like I can provide the link. There you will not find a single negative statement against HLA. Why? Because it's not allowed, the same as it was not allowed when we were incarcerated.

Not only are they censored, they can't share contact information. An adult survivor said recently, I feel like I'm in 4th grade with all these rules.
Here's the link. Have fun. One of the most boring forums you'll ever read.
http://www.discusshla.com/

I like fornits because I dont like a lot of rules either....

[ZenAgent]

Who?

[TheWho]

Hey, Whoster...this is something that doesn't come often on this forum, it's community based treatment (MST). I think most people could wrap their heads around this a lot easier than shipping their kids off to unknown goon squads to suffer all manner of nasty trauma because daddy was a lamer. Would have saved you two years of estrangement. My friend at A START is a big proponent of MST.

Thanks Zen

[Anonymous]

[ZenAgent]

Hey, Whoster...this is something that doesn't come often on this forum, it's community based treatment (MST). I think most people could wrap their heads around this a lot easier than shipping their kids off to unknown goon squads to suffer all manner of nasty trauma because daddy was a lamer. Would have saved you two years of estrangement. My friend at A START is a big proponent of MST.

Thanks Zen

No opinion?  I'm surprised.  Some people just want the kid out of the house.