The Who

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with Mike on this one.  The only reason I'm wasting my time is that this is a little something like a sparring match, preparation for the real thing.

Fundamentally, if you've been reading the last couple of pages of this thread, what becomes obvious is that The Who views this industry as any other business industry such as the auto manufacturing industry, which is apt given the send your kid to the program (body shop) to get fixed analogy.

Whether The Who is a program parent or an employee of the industry, the one thing that this dialouge is useful for is understanding the programee mentality, because the first step in defeating your enemy is to know your enemy.

I will give Mr. Who the benefit of the doubt that he is a real human being, (I'm sure he'll appreciate that) even so, trying to convince him the rightness of our position would be like trying to convince a member of NARAL that contraception = murder.  So we run in circles like chickens with our heads cut off.

As such, our debate with The Who is then philosophical and political not moral.  How do you even begin to have a discussion with someone who doesn't accept the autonomy of youth.  It's useless.

This cult extends beyond just the parents and the survivors, it extends to the people who work in the industry themselves.  They are too emotionally and financially invested to change the philosphical underpinnings that drive their industry; that youth have no autonomy, coercive behavioral modification is an acceptable way to change behavior, and that the market (parents who wish to change their children's behavior) is an acceptable area to exploit for financial gain*.

Abuse in residential programs can happen even when those three philosophies aren't engrained in the program protocol, but it sure as hell makes it more likely that abuse will happen when it does.

*The troubled teen industry is hardly the only industry that operates like this.  Kaplan, the SAT tutoring company essentially does a similar financial exploitation, by aggressively marketing to parents how their children need to get a couple hundred more points on their test.  Ultimately, the SAT is a standardized test and a zero-sum game.  While being able to hire expensive tutors may be a true indication of how one would fare in college, in the great scheme of things Kaplan (and Princeton Review and all the other ones) adds nothing to society, collects great sums of money from middle & upper class parents, and causes teenagers a great deal of stress and anxiety in the process.  But at the very least nobody died from going to Kaplan for tutoring.

[TheWho]

Fundamentally, if you've been reading the last couple of pages of this thread, what becomes obvious is that The Who views this industry as any other business industry such as the auto manufacturing industry, which is apt given the send your kid to the program (body shop) to get fixed analogy.

I believe people lose sight of the fact that people need to earn a living.  Doctors make a huge income yet it doesn’t dissuade anyone from entrusting them.  The fact that programs are asking for large sums of money is not a result of the industry.  The price of each program is set by the parents not the industry.

Whether The Who is a program parent or an employee of the industry, the one thing that this dialouge is useful for is understanding the programee mentality, because the first step in defeating your enemy is to know your enemy.

You shouldn’t try to view programmes as the enemy.  Kids become at-Risk for a variety of reasons and the parents (programmees) are desperately trying to help them.  We would be helping more kids if we focused on the parents who are not involved in their childrens welfare or success and allowing their kids to continue down a self destructive path.

I will give Mr. Who the benefit of the doubt that he is a real human being, (I'm sure he'll appreciate that) even so, trying to convince him the rightness of our position would be like trying to convince a member of NARAL that contraception = murder. So we run in circles like chickens with our heads cut off.

As such, our debate with The Who is then philosophical and political not moral. How do you even begin to have a discussion with someone who doesn't accept the autonomy of youth. It's useless.

How could we possibly think that kids should be given the kinds of rights that are talked about here?  The court system would be overloaded within a month with kids suing their parents because they forced them to go to school or kids dying because they refused to have an operation on a failing kidney.  Children are just not mature enough to make these decisions.  I agree that kids shouldn’t just be picked out of their beds in the middle of the night for no reason.  But most kids have been given fair warning that they need to attend school, get off the drugs, quit stealing cars, letting their 3 year old sister play with old hypodermics which they leave sitting around. etc.  Most have had a chance to adjust their behavior on their own or work with local services.  They have had their day in court (several times).
If we instituted a law which required a school counsellor or the childs therapist to sign off on all placements this would go a long way in protecting kids from being placed unnecessarily.

This cult extends beyond just the parents and the survivors, it extends to the people who work in the industry themselves. They are too emotionally and financially invested to change the philosphical underpinnings that drive their industry; that youth have no autonomy, coercive behavioral modification is an acceptable way to change behavior, and that the market (parents who wish to change their children's behavior) is an acceptable area to exploit for financial gain*.

I agree with this in philosophy.  As regulation starts to take hold some of the more abusive programs will start to change or go out of business.

Abuse in residential programs can happen even when those three philosophies aren't engrained in the program protocol, but it sure as hell makes it more likely that abuse will happen when it does.

Yes abuse will occur everywhere, I agree, I don’t think we can stop that, but we can continuously work towards making them safer.

*The troubled teen industry is hardly the only industry that operates like this. Kaplan, the SAT tutoring company essentially does a similar financial exploitation, by aggressively marketing to parents how their children need to get a couple hundred more points on their test. Ultimately, the SAT is a standardized test and a zero-sum game. While being able to hire expensive tutors may be a true indication of how one would fare in college, in the great scheme of things Kaplan (and Princeton Review and all the other ones) adds nothing to society, collects great sums of money from middle & upper class parents, and causes teenagers a great deal of stress and anxiety in the process. But at the very least nobody died from going to Kaplan for tutoring.

Many different industries operate on similar principles.  It is imperative that any industry continues to grow and find new ways to increase profits each year.  Unless a program is subsidised by the government they need to create new marketing strategies each year to survive.  If a company stands still and profits stay the same each year it will not survive.



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[Anonymous]

This cult extends beyond just the parents and the survivors, it extends to the people who work in the industry themselves. They are too emotionally and financially invested to change the philosphical underpinnings that drive their industry; that youth have no autonomy, coercive behavioral modification is an acceptable way to change behavior, and that the market (parents who wish to change their children's behavior) is an acceptable area to exploit for financial gain*.

I agree with this in philosophy.  As regulation starts to take hold some of the more abusive programs will start to change or go out of business.

Lon Woodbury's latest essay repeats this.  Coincidence?  

Many different industries operate on similar principles.  It is imperative that any industry continues to grow and find new ways to increase profits each year.  Unless a program is subsidised by the government they need to create new marketing strategies each year to survive.  If a company stands still and profits stay the same each year it will not survive.
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In order to grow, the industry needs more "troubled" teens and it will invent new diagnoses to scare parents into incarcerating kids.  TheWho is saying kids are raw material for his industry's growth and the industry will exploit anyone in order to increase profits.  Parents beware of theWho and his business associates.

[Anonymous]

How could we possibly think that kids should be given the kinds of rights that are talked about here? The court system would be overloaded within a month with kids suing their parents because they forced them to go to school or kids dying because they refused to have an operation on a failing kidney.

.

First, it's the state that forces kids to go to school, not their parents.  At least in New York State, parents can only sign kids out of school when they turn 17, until then parents really have no say in the matter.  I would say that in the very few instances that parents knowing place their youth in an abusive programs, teenagers should have the right to sue their parents.  They already have the right to report instances of child abuse.  Second, in some states children already have the same rights as adults to refuse medical treatment (which can always be overridden with a court order).  

Children are just not mature enough to make these decisions. I agree that kids shouldn’t just be picked out of their beds in the middle of the night for no reason. But most kids have been given fair warning that they need to attend school, get off the drugs, quit stealing cars, letting their 3 year old sister play with old hypodermics which they leave sitting around. etc. Most have had a chance to adjust their behavior on their own or work with local services. They have had their day in court (several times).

All I would argue is that in the case of a placement for psychiatric/educational reasons that placement needs to be reviewed by a third party team of professionals that include a psychiatrist, social worker, educational expert, parent and youth advocate, and that the youth would be granted representation by a guardian ad litem.  If the youth has been convicted of a crime in a court of law, and they are presented the option of jail/juvenile detention or a private program as a condition of probation, then that youth has a decision to make, and I would hope that they would make the decision with all the facts made available to them.  In both of these instances, it would be the responsibility of the state to furnish transport, on the dime of the family if the placement is voluntary, or on the dime of the state is the placement is involuntary.

If we instituted a law which required a school counsellor or the childs therapist to sign off on all placements this would go a long way in protecting kids from being placed unnecessarily

A step, but far from good enough.  In New York State for their RTF beds (this only makes up about %10 of our statewide capacity), they require a psychiatric, psychological, psychosocial, and an educational evaluation.  In addition, they require a recording of what services have been tried before residential placement.  Then the five-person third party team reviews the documents, and makes a determination after interviewing the parent and the child.
A parent could easily find a sympathetic school counselor or a handpicked therapist to sign off of the placement, which we know has happened before.

[TheWho]

In order to grow, the industry needs more "troubled" teens and it will invent new diagnoses to scare parents into incarcerating kids.  TheWho is saying kids are raw material for his industry's growth and the industry will exploit anyone in order to increase profits.  Parents beware of theWho and his business associates.

Like any other industry it will find new ways to increase their profits every year.  Some ways of doing this is to increase the cost of the stay, reduce operating expenses, provide or expand services.  

I don’t believe your teen industry looks at the kids as raw material or exploits them any more than toysRus, McDonalds, Abercrombie and Fitch, playstation or the local high school football coach does.



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[Anonymous]

In order to grow, the industry needs more "troubled" teens and it will invent new diagnoses to scare parents into incarcerating kids.  TheWho is saying kids are raw material for his industry's growth and the industry will exploit anyone in order to increase profits.  Parents beware of theWho and his business associates.

Like any other industry it will find new ways to increase their profits every year.  Some ways of doing this is to increase the cost of the stay, reduce operating expenses, provide or expand services.  

I don’t believe your teen industry looks at the kids as raw material or exploits them any more than toysRus, McDonalds, Abercrombie and Fitch, playstation or the local high school football coach does.



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Ha, Ha, Ha.  How can it be my industry when I don't support it in any way?  Did you take offense who?  Reducing operating expenses will mean hiring untrained staff, increasing the cost will mean parents are receiving the services of unqualified clinicians.  That is exploitation Mr. Who.  The businesses you mention above are not part of the mental health field.  You're comparing kids to hamburgers again and if that is truly your view of children it's no wonder you sent your daughter to a program, if indeed you even have children.

You have been proven to be a liar over and over in the past.  Parents beware of theWho and his business associates.  They profit from deception.

[TheWho]

First, it's the state that forces kids to go to school, not their parents. At least in New York State, parents can only sign kids out of school when they turn 17, until then parents really have no say in the matter. I would say that in the very few instances that parents knowing place their youth in an abusive programs, teenagers should have the right to sue their parents. They already have the right to report instances of child abuse. Second, in some states children already have the same rights as adults to refuse medical treatment (which can always be overridden with a court order).

I don’t think a parent would knowingly place their child in a situation where they would be abused (of course there is an exception to everything).  If the child did end up being abused the parents should be able to sue the program/school.  The child should be able to report it and then have the legal system do their job.

All I would argue is that in the case of a placement for psychiatric/educational reasons that placement needs to be reviewed by a third party team of professionals that include a psychiatrist, social worker, educational expert, parent and youth advocate, and that the youth would be granted representation by a guardian ad litem. If the youth has been convicted of a crime in a court of law, and they are presented the option of jail/juvenile detention or a private program as a condition of probation, then that youth has a decision to make, and I would hope that they would make the decision with all the facts made available to them. In both of these instances, it would be the responsibility of the state to furnish transport, on the dime of the family if the placement is voluntary, or on the dime of the state is the placement is involuntary.

This sounds reasonable; I have always agreed to have a (independent) third party sign off, as long as they are readily available.

A step, but far from good enough. In New York State for their RTF beds (this only makes up about %10 of our statewide capacity), they require a psychiatric, psychological, psychosocial, and an educational evaluation. In addition, they require a recording of what services have been tried before residential placement. Then the five-person third party team reviews the documents, and makes a determination after interviewing the parent and the child.
A parent could easily find a sympathetic school counselor or a handpicked therapist to sign off of the placement, which we know has happened before.

 
I could also agree to this if the state could get their act together and do the evaluations on a days notice, but my experience tells me that by the time the state gets around to deciding who is going to pay for it, who is going to participate in it, who is qualified and then agree on the results and file the appropriate paperwork the kid would have already aged out of their teen years.

Maybe a state approved therapist who is not handpicked by the parents would suffice.



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[Anonymous]

I believe people lose sight of the fact that people need to earn a living.  Doctors make a huge income yet it doesn’t dissuade anyone from entrusting them.  The fact that programs are asking for large sums of money is not a result of the industry.  The price of each program is set by the parents gullibility and naivetee, not the industry.

Fixed that for ya.

You shouldn’t try to view programmes as the enemy.  Kids become at-Risk for a variety of reasons and the parents (programmees) are desperately trying to help them.  We would be helping more kids if we focused on the parents who are not involved in their childrens welfare or success and allowing their kids to continue down a self destructive path.

You shouldn't tell other people how they should or shouldn't view something.  It's rude and pointless.

The problem is that these kids have NO DUE PROCESS.  If they are incarcerated in one of these places, they have no recourse.  If they complain about how they're being treated, it gets worse and they understand very quickly that any dissent or questioning of the program or it's policies will be severely dealt with.  Hell, even if parents get a little inquisitive and start poking their noses around too much THEY are dealt with pretty severely...i.e.  those precious, few moments of their weekly monitored phone calls with their kids could be cut off.  God forbid you have divorced parents and one puts a kid in a program against the others wishes.  The non-custodial parent is denied virtually ALL access to the child.  The kids have no access to phone or outside sources to even report anything in the first place.  And, very often, the 'dx' techniques the programs use leave A LOT to be desired.  Rubber stamping any kid just to get them in the door and get those $$$$.  Unqualified staff.  Do I really need to go on more?

How could we possibly think that kids should be given the kinds of rights that are talked about here?

Let's just start off with some basic human rights, howz that?  Like a proper diagnosis from qualified staff, instead of 'diagnosing' a kid with some arbitrary 'behavioral disorder'.  How about access to a phone to be able to speak to parents or LEO or the Dept. of Children and Families....UNCENSORED AND UNMONITORED?  How about the right to take a dump without some 'higher phaser' watching you?

I agree that kids shouldn’t just be picked out of their beds in the middle of the night for no reason.  But most kids have been given fair warning that they need to attend school, get off the drugs, quit stealing cars, letting their 3 year old sister play with old hypodermics which they leave sitting around. etc.

Uh huh.  You're picking out the most extreme cases.  You know FULL WELL that most of these kids are not hardened criminals or hardcore drug addicts.  Hell, most are not addicts at all.  They're doing hte stuff most normal teens do.  Parents get scared, over-react, start doing Google searches for 'help' and end up seeing these bullshit lists of 'warning signs' that program websites plaster all over in an attempt to scare the parents into signing them up.  Have you ever seen some of those lists?  They're ridiculous!


 

Most have had a chance to adjust their behavior on their own or work with local services.  They have had their day in court (several times).

And you know this because........................?

If we instituted a law which required a school counsellor or the childs therapist to sign off on all placements this would go a long way in protecting kids from being placed unnecessarily.

If a child is so out of control that they truly need to be places outside of the home, then it should be with experienced MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS!  Not pseudo-therapists who use methods derived from known abusive cults.

Many different industries operate on similar principles.  It is imperative that any industry continues to grow and find new ways to increase profits each year.

This is why you make so many of us physically ill at times.  It is NOT imperative that this industry "grow" at all. And increase profits?  That's imperative to YOU, but I guarantee it ain't to sane, compassionate people.


 

Unless a program is subsidised by the government they need to create new marketing strategies each year to survive.  If a company stands still and profits stay the same each year it will not survive.

You are a truly disgusting human being.

[TheWho]

Ha, Ha, Ha. How can it be my industry when I don't support it in any way? Did you take offense who?

How can you prove to us you do not support the industry?  Even if you don’t work for them you could be supporting them via investments or 401ks etc.  

Reducing operating expenses will mean hiring untrained staff

Or keeping their existing trained staff but put off building the new gymnasium for another year.

, increasing the cost will mean parents are receiving the services of unqualified clinicians.

No it means instead of writing the school a check for $6,000 a month they write it for $6,250
 

That is exploitation Mr. Who.

No it is business and growing the business so that you can better serve the future clients.  

The businesses you mention above are not part of the mental health field.  You're comparing kids to hamburgers again and if that is truly your view of children it's no wonder you sent your daughter to a program, if indeed you even have children.

So you feel I view my daughter as a Big Mac and that is why I sent her to a program?  That is interesting.  You need to open your mind a bit more and consider analogies or review their intent.  They are not meant to be literal comparisons.

You have been proven to be a liar over and over in the past. Parents beware of theWho and his business associates. They profit from deception.

Hmmm.  Again, since I don’t agree with your reasoning you view me a liar how immature and closed minded.  That was a very strange conversation.



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[Anonymous]

How can you prove to us you do not support the industry?  Even if you don’t work for them you could be supporting them via investments or 401ks etc.  

Shut the fuck up you pernicious asshole.

You need to open your mind a bit more and consider analogies or review their intent.  They are not meant to be literal comparisons.

You need to quit telling other people what they need to do.

Hmmm.  Again, since I don’t agree with your reasoning you view me a liar how immature and closed minded.  That was a very strange conversation.

No, but it's not surprising that in your bizarre little world you'd see it like that.

[Anonymous]

Hey Who,

I'm a little new here and I have no idea what the big fuss is over this thread. It is one of the longest threads here. (I couldn't imagine going over the entire content of it.) I mean no offense here, in fact I am just curious. I have noticed a trend and, if I am correct, you have a particular skill in running a conversation in circles. Is this all a game? I don't know if you don't want to expose this about yourself but maybe you just want to be found out. If it is true I applaude you! It is truly brilliant. An expose on the nature of man. Thank you.

LOL. This is too funny. they hit the nail on the head and in no time you have them all playing with you again. Only the real game is you successfully make these guys look like a bunch of dumbasses. And im sure they are going to keep coming back for more. Maybe your proffession should be as a sheep herder! I wish i could give you a high five. Serious this cracks me up. I think im goin to have to join in the fun. I think well make a great team. i bet our viewpoints are right in line with each other. Ba-a-a-a-a!

[Anonymous]

What a bunch of whiners. Someone cared about you enough to spend a shitload of $$ to try and help your sorry asses. Get over it. (Hey who. high five on that one buddy.)

[Anonymous]

Who you gave your word not to post on Fornits again.  You are still here which makes you a liar.  That is only one example of your deceit.  Why are you pretending to be someone else?  Don't create your invisible hench people again you look like a fucking tool.  At least switch proxies if you are going to be your own support.  Maybe you need to have your anon posts tagged again since you left a standing invitation to do it.

[Anonymous]

Ba-a-a-a! Here sheep! Keep playing within my maze of circular logic.

[TheWho]

You shouldn't tell other people how they should or shouldn't view something. It's rude and pointless.

Lets place that on the shingle as everyone enters, I will conform if others do.

The problem is that these kids have NO DUE PROCESS. If they are incarcerated in one of these places, they have no recourse. If they complain about how they're being treated, it gets worse and they understand very quickly that any dissent or questioning of the program or it's policies will be severely dealt with. Hell, even if parents get a little inquisitive and start poking their noses around too much THEY are dealt with pretty severely...i.e. those precious, few moments of their weekly monitored phone calls with their kids could be cut off. God forbid you have divorced parents and one puts a kid in a program against the others wishes. The non-custodial parent is denied virtually ALL access to the child. The kids have no access to phone or outside sources to even report anything in the first place. And, very often, the 'dx' techniques the programs use leave A LOT to be desired. Rubber stamping any kid just to get them in the door and get those $$$$. Unqualified staff. Do I really need to go on more?

I am just as frustrated as you are.  Some solutions are regulation, giving children access to a hot line, providing the kids with unmonitored phone calls to their parents.
Having a third party sign off on all placements prior to a program/school accepting them.

Let's just start off with some basic human rights, howz that? Like a proper diagnosis from qualified staff, instead of 'diagnosing' a kid with some arbitrary 'behavioral disorder'. How about access to a phone to be able to speak to parents or LEO or the Dept. of Children and Families....UNCENSORED AND UNMONITORED? How about the right to take a dump without some 'higher phaser' watching you?

Way ahead of you, keep going, we agree so far.  

Uh huh. You're picking out the most extreme cases. You know FULL WELL that most of these kids are not hardened criminals or hardcore drug addicts. Hell, most are not addicts at all. They're doing hte stuff most normal teens do. Parents get scared, over-react, start doing Google searches for 'help' and end up seeing these bullshit lists of 'warning signs' that program websites plaster all over in an attempt to scare the parents into signing them up. Have you ever seen some of those lists? They're ridiculous!

You are picking the extreme cases also.  Parents just don’t send their kids away based on a list they read about on the web.  The parents are reading it because they already have a problem with their child who is at-risk.  Parents don’t send their kids away for help at $6,000 a month for talking back to them or getting a tattoo (again, I am sure there are exceptions).  Having a third party sign off will help prevent these types of placements from happening.

And you know this because........................?

Just talk to a few of the kids, they were not heading for Harvard on a full scholarship prior to being placed, they know they were screwing up and many had plenty of warning and opportunities to get back on track.

This is why you make so many of us physically ill at times. It is NOT imperative that this industry "grow" at all. And increase profits? That's imperative to YOU, but I guarantee it ain't to sane, compassionate people.

No it is not imperative to me because I am not an investor.  The investors drive the industries profit stategy.  If profits do not increase every year then the major investors will pull their money.  Hospitals are the same way, like any industry.  If the fund that your 401k is in doesn’t do well they will move the money out and into something more profitable.  If too much money is pulled out then the industry could/would collapse.
So you see it is important that the industry keep growing.  Pick any company at random and look at their 5 year plan.  I guarantee it includes growth and a plan to grow the company.  Doesn’t mean they are unethical (doesn’t mean they are not either).
How many of the readers here will except not getting a raise over the next 10 years, zero growth?  I would think you would pull out fairly quick and find another source of income.  We all expect to do better next year then we are this year.  Doesnt make you evil or unethical.

You are a truly disgusting human being.

You are saying that to yourself, you just don’t realize it.  But so it goes, I guess.  Someday you may understand that you are fighting the wrong people.



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