Losers!

[Troll Control]

Also, about the Dave Marcus article:

1.  It's full of holes.  
2.  It's ONE MAN'S OPINION of a particular program at a particular time, a "snapshot" if you will.
3.  I personally know and worked with his major source for the story.  A man known to be highly abusive, uncaring, strange, inappropriate, violent, etc.  This person is as inappropriate and unprofessional as they come.  

Just research a few of the names from the article and you'll find 20-year careers studded with such wonderful accomplishments ranging from physical/psychological abuse to vehicular manslaughter while DUI.  

Yeah, I put a LOT of faith into THAT article.  And those people.

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-07 05:09:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-12-06 10:12:00, Anonymous wrote:


"

On 2005-12-06 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:



"

On 2005-12-06 09:36:00, famjaztique wrote:




"I love that idea but I don't have the money.  I am trying to get the school district to pay for an RTC and that's a fight in itself.  Trying to get them to pay for him to study abroad is a no go.




"

Concerns about residential care primarily relate to criteria for admission; inconsistency of community-based treatment established in the 1980s; the costliness of such services (Friedman & Street, 1985); the risks of treatment, including failure to learn behavior needed in the community; the possibility of trauma associated with the separation from the family; difficulty reentering the family or even abandonment by the family; victimization by RTC staff; and learning of antisocial or bizarre behavior from intensive exposure to other disturbed children (Barker, 1998). These concerns are discussed below.







In the past, admission to an RTC has been justified on the basis of community protection, child protection, and benefits of residential treatment per se (Barker, 1982). However, none of these justifications have stood up to research scrutiny. In particular, youth who display seriously violent and aggressive behavior do not appear to improve in such settings, according to limited evidence (Joshi & Rosenberg, 1997).







http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm







_________________________________________________



Ok, I'm ready.  Show me your "positive research" on RTC's.  I hope it's some real research and not just more pro-program bias that ruins so many people's credibility in these discussions...







"

Yes, I read that long ago.  It really doesnt apply to the facilities we are talking about here.  I can give you a link to someone who spent a few years at an RTC in Massachusetts interviewing and living with the kids thru their journey from beginning to end.  It is a fascinating study on the treatment centers strengths and weaknesses.


Its a good read for those who are interested in a journalists point of view.





http://www.davemarcus.com/"

A journalist?  That's your "positive research?"  Gimme a break already.  You people are SO TIRED in your responses to basic questions.



A parent should trust a journalist's OPINION rather than the LONGITUDUNAL RESEARCH STUDIES of trained professionals in the psychiatric arena?



It really amazes me still, that after all these years there has never been even ONE SINGLE STUDY to show effectiveness of RTC's (read the definition from the study, "RTC" covers "behavior modification programs").  Again, all you have is glossy brochures with quotes from a journalist.  With all that income, one would think the programs could have commissioned proper research by proper professionals to assess their efficacy.  ALL relevent research concludes that RTC's are not effective in most of the cases researched and, in many cases, cause real psychological/social damages to the children and some even become victims of crime including abusive/perverse behaviors by staff or other more extreme patients.



These are the "schools" "program" supporters are referring perfectly normal kids to every day for TONS of money all for one end : HUGE PROFITS.



What I can't understand yet is why a parent will go for the glossy brochure over the judgment of real seasoned professionals?  "There's one born every minute...""

Calm down..... Its obvious you didnt read the book, its not a "glossy brochure", nor commissioned by the schools.  Its not the end all, final say on RTC's its a point a view from the childs standpoint.  No one is saying lets send all our kids there.  Its a good read for parents and a different perspective.  If one is going to educate themselves they need to be open minded and look at all points of view.

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-07 05:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Also, about the Dave Marcus article:



1.  It's full of holes.  

2.  It's ONE MAN'S OPINION of a particular program at a particular time, a "snapshot" if you will.

3.  I personally know and worked with his major source for the story.  A man known to be highly abusive, uncaring, strange, inappropriate, violent, etc.  This person is as inappropriate and unprofessional as they come.  



Just research a few of the names from the article and you'll find 20-year careers studded with such wonderful accomplishments ranging from physical/psychological abuse to vehicular manslaughter while DUI.  



Yeah, I put a LOT of faith into THAT article.  And those people."

Sorry, you dont know, his major source where the kids he followed thru peer group from "Wilderness base camp" thru life steps into graduation.
You dont know what you are talking about, read the book , not the inside cover.

[Anonymous]

Ok, so you hated the program and you're pissed off that you were sent there.  I get that.  So now what??  Where do you go from here??  What's next??

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-07 06:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ok, so you hated the program and you're pissed off that you were sent there.  I get that.  So now what??  Where do you go from here??  What's next??"

You really seem to enjoy convincing yourself of certain 'facts' which simply aren't true. Have fun while the rest of us enjoy the real world.

[Anonymous]

Calm down..... Its obvious you didnt read the book, its not a "glossy brochure", nor commissioned by the schools. Its not the end all, final say on RTC's its a point a view from the childs standpoint. No one is saying lets send all our kids there. Its a good read for parents and a different perspective. If one is going to educate themselves they need to be open minded and look at all points of view.

Sorry, you dont know, his major source where the kids he followed thru peer group from "Wilderness base camp" thru life steps into graduation.
You dont know what you are talking about, read the book , not the inside cover.

Read a book? You must be kidding!  ::puke::

SOOOO....

PLEASE provide us with this evidence that RTC's and Behavior Mod facilities actually do more good than harm. It's a billion dollar industry, so you should be able to come up with something right?

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-07 08:08:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Calm down..... Its obvious you didnt read the book, its not a "glossy brochure", nor commissioned by the schools. Its not the end all, final say on RTC's its a point a view from the childs standpoint. No one is saying lets send all our kids there. Its a good read for parents and a different perspective. If one is going to educate themselves they need to be open minded and look at all points of view.

Sorry, you dont know, his major source where the kids he followed thru peer group from "Wilderness base camp" thru life steps into graduation.

You dont know what you are talking about, read the book , not the inside cover.

Read a book? You must be kidding!  ::puke::



SOOOO....



PLEASE provide us with this evidence that RTC's and Behavior Mod facilities actually do more good than harm. It's a billion dollar industry, so you should be able to come up with something right?



"

Whew, sorry to set you off.  I mentioned reading the book because the respondents were referring to it as a glossy brochure, which indicated that they didnt look at it.  I am not saying everyone needs to read it.  All I am asking is dont comment on something you have not read.  If you have been thru programs I wouldnt expect you to be interested.  But there are parents who only see what the read here and there are other points of view.  Marcus lived there by his own choosing but his thoughts and writing are not entirely his own, they come from the kids doing the hard work, and yes I stand by what I say "Read the book" or dont comment on it, I am not pushing the book, I could care less.  Read back a few post, there is a mother looking for answers and ways to help her son,  we are trying to provide her with options and information.  If you dont have the correct information (positive and negative) it is hard to make an informed decision.

The data on RTC is hard to come by, I tried to gather some up (# graduated,# abused,# died, # doing well, # doing poorly etc) but no studies have been done.  It would be interesting to compare it to say the public school system, but the data is not available, atleast that I can find.  So we can only go with what is written and the experiences of those who have been there.   dont advocate all programs.


So anyway that is how the whole book thing came up, sorry if you took it the wrong way.

[Anonymous]

The data on RTC is hard to come by, I tried to gather some up (# graduated,# abused,# died, # doing well, # doing poorly etc) but no studies have been done.

This is not a coincidence. They know it doesn't work, so why keep statistics?

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-07 09:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

The data on RTC is hard to come by, I tried to gather some up (# graduated,# abused,# died, # doing well, # doing poorly etc) but no studies have been done.

This is not a coincidence. They know it doesn't work, so why keep statistics?"

Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.

Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing.

[Anonymous]

Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.

Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol: Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-07 09:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.



Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol: Thanks, I needed a good laugh today."

I agree sounds absurd, but without data its all she said he said and we have to sift thru all the posts and then determine how many people there are and who is credible etc. a daunting task, which RTCs are good, which are bad, which kids should go , which should not and how do we base our decisions etc.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-07 09:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-12-07 09:45:00, Anonymous wrote:


"

Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.





Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing.

 :roll:  :lol:

[Anonymous]

how do we base our decisions etc

I am basing my decisions on actually having been at a few of the programs discussed here. How about you?

[CCM girl 1989]

[/quote]Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.



Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing."
[/quote]

Yeah, whatever!!!! You don't really believe that do you?!!

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-07 09:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

how do we base our decisions etc

I am basing my decisions on actually having been at a few of the programs discussed here. How about you?"

Based on a few people I know who have been to one, but see we are only 2 people and we see a very narrow veiw.  I cant base anyones decision to send their child or not based on the little that I know or the advice of one person (yourself).  We need to step back and look at a broader view, a view of all who have graduated/ dropped out and compare their experiences with the national averages of other institutions to see how they sized up.
If my airbag failed to deploy in a Ford Taurus, would it be short sighted of me to want all cars removed from the road and ban anyone from driving based on my experience? Shouldnt we first consider that cars may help people, Fire truck, ambulances etc. or should we step back and look at a larger picture, maybe collect some data and see how many other people are being hurt etc.

Just questions, I am not taking a stand.